DellaMoon
Well-Known Member
As title really. I'm on limited grazing so want to maximise the grass available! Going to use chicken manure pellets and won't be using the paddock until mid April.
Thank you!
Thank you!
When to fertilize?
- Thread starter DellaMoon
- Start date
cm2581
Well-Known Member
I would say as soon as the ground is dry enough to take the machinery then spread the fertiliser. I know there is a date before which you are not supposed to spread nitrogen based chemical fertiliser on land (i think its a law) but don't think it would apply to what you are using. There will need to be a fair amount of rain to wash the fertiliser into the ground before the horses can graze on it so I would have thought the sooner the better really. If a contractor is going to apply it they should be able to give you some more detailed info or maybe the supplier of the pellets?
CBFan
Well-Known Member
depends where you are but for us in Herts, today is Ideal as the ground is dry but we're due rain tonight!
Thistle
Well-Known Member
Farmer next door to me is doing it now.
DellaMoon
Well-Known Member
Cool, Sunday it is then as we're due rain on Monday. Thank you very much!
Heidi
Active Member
My brother checks a website somewhere to see if the soil has reached the right temperature! I guess it must have done here in Kent, as everyone has been putting theirs out over the last couple of days!
dorani
Well-Known Member
Done most of mine!
kent
Active Member
Just a few bits of advice: -
When to fertilise. There are really three main fertilisers, Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium, usually abbreviated to N, P and K. Ideally they should be used at different times of the year, but in practice, unless you are involved in huge areas and costs, they are usually applied all together, as a mixture, several times each year. So timing is the least of your considerations.
The main consideration should be that fertilisers are largely wasted on grasses, except for ryegrasses, and particularly hybrid Italian Ryegrasses, which have been developed to take up fertilisers. All the usual meadow grasses have long ago developed by natural selection to thrive without fertiliser. To provided fodder, farmers sow ryegrasses, not meadowgrasses, and fertilise heavily.
Weedkilling is more important than fertilising. If you apply fertilisers to meadow grassland, the weeds will love it, and will multiply, to the detriment of the grass, unless you kill the weeds off with weedkiller. And weedkiller is a lot cheaper than fertiliser.
Even on ryegrass, fertilisers are ineffective if the alkalinity of the soil is not right, so you need to have a soil test done before fertilising. This will show whether the alkalinity (pH) needs correcting first for weedkiller to have any chance, and will show the deficiency in the soil of each fertiliser. Fertilisers are sold in many different proportions. Check what your nearest farmers supply outfit carries in stock.
If you really want to get more grass, you will probably need to weedkill, correct the alkalinity, sow ryegrasses, and then fertilise. Of course, your horses will probably prefer the variety in meadowgrasses, and will avoid the ryegrasses if possible, and unless you correct the alkalinity, within a couple of years the meadowgrasses will have taken over again.
I would recommend a course on grassland management, or grass growing, or buy a couple of books on the science behind grass-growing. Cheaper and more effective than buying chicken-s**t.
When to fertilise. There are really three main fertilisers, Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium, usually abbreviated to N, P and K. Ideally they should be used at different times of the year, but in practice, unless you are involved in huge areas and costs, they are usually applied all together, as a mixture, several times each year. So timing is the least of your considerations.
The main consideration should be that fertilisers are largely wasted on grasses, except for ryegrasses, and particularly hybrid Italian Ryegrasses, which have been developed to take up fertilisers. All the usual meadow grasses have long ago developed by natural selection to thrive without fertiliser. To provided fodder, farmers sow ryegrasses, not meadowgrasses, and fertilise heavily.
Weedkilling is more important than fertilising. If you apply fertilisers to meadow grassland, the weeds will love it, and will multiply, to the detriment of the grass, unless you kill the weeds off with weedkiller. And weedkiller is a lot cheaper than fertiliser.
Even on ryegrass, fertilisers are ineffective if the alkalinity of the soil is not right, so you need to have a soil test done before fertilising. This will show whether the alkalinity (pH) needs correcting first for weedkiller to have any chance, and will show the deficiency in the soil of each fertiliser. Fertilisers are sold in many different proportions. Check what your nearest farmers supply outfit carries in stock.
If you really want to get more grass, you will probably need to weedkill, correct the alkalinity, sow ryegrasses, and then fertilise. Of course, your horses will probably prefer the variety in meadowgrasses, and will avoid the ryegrasses if possible, and unless you correct the alkalinity, within a couple of years the meadowgrasses will have taken over again.
I would recommend a course on grassland management, or grass growing, or buy a couple of books on the science behind grass-growing. Cheaper and more effective than buying chicken-s**t.
Bosworth
Well-Known Member
Totally agree with what Kent has said. Don't waste your money until you have had soil sampling done. I was being told by my local farmer that in needed 20:10:10 on my land to get the grass growing when we moved in 3 years ago and really needed to plough everything up and start again. I ignored him, got all my land soil analysed and basically our land had a pH of 5.0 - 5.3, the optimum grass growing pH is 6.6. So instead of fertilising we limed the fields, 1 tonne per acre. We also weed killed, got rid of the docks, plantain and nettles. That summer we grew no buttercups - so the pH was certainly higher, because we had got rid of the weeds our grass was able to come through and we had fantastic haylage and good grazing. We now muck spread ( horse muck well rotted) every spring and autumn and will lime again this autumn. We will soil sample again this year and see where we are. it takes a bit of care and research but random spreading of fertiliser is costly and a total waste of money if your pH is incorrect. Over the 3 years the quality and quantity of the haylage and grazing we are producing is improving. And we are producing lovely meadow grass with natural herbs. and all it has cost me really is £1300 for one application of lime (we have about 35 acres) and £300 a year to have the muck spread twice a year.
DellaMoon
Well-Known Member
Why do so many people assume that because someone asks a question that they are totally ignorant? I am a scientist so am quite well informed about soils and grass having studied them at university. I have used this fertiliser before with a lot of success. The question was when to fertilise and that has been answered by some very helpful HHOers. Thank you for your replies.
Bosworth
Well-Known Member
Why be so rude? Your question was when to fertilise - and basically you have been answered - why fertilise - have you soil sampled - perfectly genuine question and helpful. When to fertilise depends on what you are using and what you hope to achieve. Get off your high horse.
DellaMoon
Well-Known Member
Sorry if I came across as rude, just didn't appreciate being treated like an idiot. Like I said, thank you to those who answered my question.
legaldancer
Well-Known Member
Actually, I looked at this post & found the answers much more helpful & informative than I had expected.
As its a public forum, its not just yourself that will be reading the replies, but anyone who has an interest in the thread title.
As its a public forum, its not just yourself that will be reading the replies, but anyone who has an interest in the thread title.
0ldmare
Well-Known Member
Blimey, that was a bit unnecessary when someone had gone to quite a lot of trouble to give a detailed answer. Asking a pretty basic question about when to fertilise doesn't kind of reveal that you are a scientist specialising in grasses.
Hippona
Well-Known Member
My thought exactly......
Plus....I have found this thread very helpful having just moved onto my own yard and knowing bugger all about this sort of thing.
Thankyou...helpful and informative posters
kent
Active Member
Sorry DellaMoon.
However, in my defence, the question did SEEM to come from someone who did not know much about grass and soil. (I would not have said totally ignorant, or an idiot) Your use of Cool to start a sentence shows that perhaps you have not been long out of University, and have some academic knowledge, but not the practical experience. By comparison, apart from still growing grass for scientific experiments, I have now retired.
For a definitive answer to your original question, I am a little surprised, given your scientific background and university study of grass and soils, that you consulted the often un-scientific readers of this forum, rather than the UK authority and enforcer on such matters DEFRA.
I quote -
Avoid applying potash fertiliser in spring to grazing land except at soil K Index 0.
Early spring growth can benefit from a small quantity of spring applied phosphate. At P Index 3 or below, all or part of the annual phosphate requirement should be applied in early spring.
Combining this with the national climate of restricting the use of nitrogen surely makes the use of chicken manure unwise at this time of year, if your chicken manure has the usual analysis.
Given that you are a scientist, and studied grass and soils at university, should you not have informed us whether your grassland is in a NVZ, and what your SNS value is, coming out of winter? Do you not agree that these are both relevant to WHEN you should fertilise?
I am very interested in your with a lot of success using chicken manure, if it was based on scientific application and analysis of the results? Did you produce a report on the exercise? What pH,N,P,K did you start from, and at what rate did you spread it? When was it spread, in relation to demand? Was the success measured by yield of the treated area compared to a control area? Could you point me towards any other scientific trials carried out with chicken manure? I am particularly interested in its use on meadow grass pastures, and nettles.
P.S. Thanks to those who sprang to my defence. Fortunately I have taught Young Offenders, when I learned graphically that people sometimes become tetchy, and why.
However, in my defence, the question did SEEM to come from someone who did not know much about grass and soil. (I would not have said totally ignorant, or an idiot) Your use of Cool to start a sentence shows that perhaps you have not been long out of University, and have some academic knowledge, but not the practical experience. By comparison, apart from still growing grass for scientific experiments, I have now retired.
For a definitive answer to your original question, I am a little surprised, given your scientific background and university study of grass and soils, that you consulted the often un-scientific readers of this forum, rather than the UK authority and enforcer on such matters DEFRA.
I quote -
Avoid applying potash fertiliser in spring to grazing land except at soil K Index 0.
Early spring growth can benefit from a small quantity of spring applied phosphate. At P Index 3 or below, all or part of the annual phosphate requirement should be applied in early spring.
Combining this with the national climate of restricting the use of nitrogen surely makes the use of chicken manure unwise at this time of year, if your chicken manure has the usual analysis.
Given that you are a scientist, and studied grass and soils at university, should you not have informed us whether your grassland is in a NVZ, and what your SNS value is, coming out of winter? Do you not agree that these are both relevant to WHEN you should fertilise?
I am very interested in your with a lot of success using chicken manure, if it was based on scientific application and analysis of the results? Did you produce a report on the exercise? What pH,N,P,K did you start from, and at what rate did you spread it? When was it spread, in relation to demand? Was the success measured by yield of the treated area compared to a control area? Could you point me towards any other scientific trials carried out with chicken manure? I am particularly interested in its use on meadow grass pastures, and nettles.
P.S. Thanks to those who sprang to my defence. Fortunately I have taught Young Offenders, when I learned graphically that people sometimes become tetchy, and why.
Bosworth
Well-Known Member
Kent - I salute you!
hobo
Well-Known Member
i agree timing has been good if you havent all ready had buckets of rain. But our own choice would not to use chicken **** on land for livestock grazing leave it for the arable boys. But I am very proctetive of our cows and horsie.
0ldmare
Well-Known Member
Kent I know who I will be asking for advise! I found your original post very interesting and thought provoking and lol at your follow up one
I went to agricultural college years ago and did Farm and Grassland managemnt, but don't recall them ever covering that about fertilising meadow grass . (Mind you I could have been in a post alcoholic haze at the time)
I went to agricultural college years ago and did Farm and Grassland managemnt, but don't recall them ever covering that about fertilising meadow grass . (Mind you I could have been in a post alcoholic haze at the time)
Booboos
Well-Known Member
I just did triple 15 yesterday and was rather pleased because it's been raining since last evening, but now I realise I know nothing about all this and it's much more complicated than I had assumed!!! I have always done 20 10 10 or triple 15 in March and September, but it sounds like that was a waste of money!
Kent that is such an informative post, thank you! Could you recommend a good book for a lay person to get to grips with this? We've just bought some land in the south of France which is in an absolute state, so I wanted to do things right this time!
Kent that is such an informative post, thank you! Could you recommend a good book for a lay person to get to grips with this? We've just bought some land in the south of France which is in an absolute state, so I wanted to do things right this time!