When to get hooves trimmed?

[amandap]

There is a serious question here about two schools of thought, one which accepts that wonky horses grow wonky feet for a good reason, and one which strives for symmetry at all times.

Now, can anyone help with that debate?

Well I'm in the wonky horses might well = wonky hooves, because hooves are very dynamic and they are able to adapt to terrain, work load etc. so why not body issues to enable efficient gait?

Its a no brainer for me. Sorry not much help! lol

 

[paddy555]

NOBODY is talking about anyone butchering horses feet.



There is a serious question here about two schools of thought, one which accepts that wonky horses grow wonky feet for a good reason, and one which strives for symmetry at all times.

Now, can anyone help with that debate?

Firstly I don't see anyone has the right to criticise people "down under" or indeed anywhere else if their trimming regime works for their horse.

Secondly I think this is the most stupid question. How can anyone comment in general without seeing the horse, knowing it's history, studying how it has been trimmed, considering if the problems which are causing the imbalance can be resolved or not.

Accepting wonky feet is fine, ie the Rockley viewpoint apparently, provided the trimmer/farrier and owner understand exactly what they are doing. I am sure you very probably have the experience on your own horses to know when this is the correct course of action.

What is becoming the view of letting horses self trim and do precisely what they want with their feet is not quite so good for those people who really do not know sufficient to make an accurate judgement.

There is a case on facebook at the moment. The person has clearly been influenced by the "let the horse trim it's own feet". That has gone on for almost a year. The first picture shows the horse wallking on very long and overgrown walls, the latest show the heels running further and further forward. Everything seems to be be centered around accepting flare on the feet. Someone suggested professional advice. The response was she would ask a professional, ie her horse. Unfortunately I doubt the horse has had much training on trimming underun heels.

So on your question of wonky feet or symmetry I would suggest a long discussion with the farrier/trimmer/physio etc etc before making a decision not on the basis of an internet blog/discussion groups etc.





OP. what a beautiful horse.

 

[amandap]

There is a case on facebook at the moment. The person has clearly been influenced by the "let the horse trim it's own feet". That has gone on for almost a year. The first picture shows the horse wallking on very long and overgrown walls, the latest show the heels running further and further forward. Everything seems to be be centered around accepting flare on the feet. Someone suggested professional advice. The response was she would ask a professional, ie her horse. Unfortunately I doubt the horse has had much training on trimming underun heels.

So on your question of wonky feet or symmetry I would suggest a long discussion with the farrier/trimmer/physio etc etc before making a decision not on the basis of an internet blog/discussion groups etc.

I think you have brought together a lot of points that are very important. The average owner ie. me is not in a position to know whats best if hooves are sick or even know if hooves are sick until it's very obvious, so we need good professional input for our individual horses in our individual circumstances.

This is where the owner becomes aware of a big professional problem in UK, the different thinking and protocols that are so devisive.
Shoe, trim, when, if and even how! That's just HCPs not including vets. Then you have to find a good, knowledgeable HCP that is willing to talk you through what your horse needs holistically to improve its feet and help form a realistic plan that is workable and then support you throughout.

Poor owners are tearing themselves inside out trying to do the best...

I do happen to believe trimming definitely has a big place in hoof care and actually helps sick hooves when done well, sensitively and appropriately for that horse. I don't believe there are enough HCPs who can truly read a hoof though.

ps. One way never fits all...

 

[cptrayes]

To be fair you were rude straight off to one poster saying that what she was doing was "You trimming routine, to me, sounds bizarre and unnecessary."

Sounds like shutting someone down if you ask me

Am I not allowed to express an opinion? It does sound bizarre to me to trim a horses feet three days after a 160km ride. How did you want me to put it not to sound rude, since rudeness was not my intention.

 

[cptrayes]

I think people have missed my point. I was not talking about trimming or not trimming. Of course trimming is necessary if you cannot match growth to wear.

I was trying to talk about overtrimming to attempt to obtain symmetry, because there seem to be many trimmers who prize symmetry above all. To the extent that a comment was left on a forum, about the asymmetric feet seen on sound horses on a stony path at the Rockley Reunion, so by definition previously badly unsound horses 'I wouldn't want my horses feet to look like that even if it was sound'.

I accept that people don't want to engage in that particular discussion and have only written this to clarify that I am not against trimming per se.

 

[amandap]

I was trying to talk about overtrimming to attempt to obtain symmetry, because there seem to be many trimmers who prize symmetry above all. To the extent that a comment was left on a forum, about the asymmetric feet seen on sound horses on a stony path at the Rockley Reunion, so by definition previously badly unsound horses 'I wouldn't want my horses feet to look like that even if it was sound'.

I accept that people don't want to engage in that particular discussion and have only written this to clarify that I am not against trimming per se.

Well, I am happy to try and engage, I hear the groans! lol

Symmetry V balance? Can anyone explain the difference? I have my take but it may be way off what they mean to others and professionals.

 

[ester]

I would say that balance in the feet accounts for the assymmetries further up.

If your horse is symmetrical it's feet will be symmetrical to be in balance, if your horse isn't symmetrical... well

 

[LucyPriory]

Symmetry and balance are not the same. Symmetry is how the shape of the hoof manifests externally. The left and right sides of the hoof might not match - asymmetry. But the foot can still be perfectly balanced, both from side to side and back to front. This is all about the internal structures being in the fight place for the horse to be properly supported both standing and in flight with no unnecessary tension or strain.

Interestingly and to my delight I found one of the countries leading vets (called in for second opinion) understands this perfectly. Unfortunately the previous less prestigious vet does not.

 

[Tnavas]

I would say that balance in the feet accounts for the assymmetries further up.

If your horse is symmetrical it's feet will be symmetrical to be in balance, if your horse isn't symmetrical... well

Definitely agree with this

As I have said earlier - using myself as an example.

My legs are not aligned correctly - they throw my weight to the outside of my feet.

I wear the outside of my heels down - the older the shoes the bigger the angle of the wear - it increases the problem I have to the point where the ligaments and tendons on the outside of both legs are stressed and become extremely painful.

I go and change my shoes to a new pair or one with heels that are not damaged and the pain immediately goes.

If I wear my orthotics - which are designed to straighten the alignment of my legs - I have no pain whatsover.

If the foot is shaped to the horses poor alignment way of standing the problem is exacerbated.

One of my foal was born with slight misalignment of her front legs - the farrier came fortnightly for a year to trim her feet to assist in correcting the problem - by following the natural alignment you increase the problem, by doing the opposite you correct the problem.

 

[amandap]

Symmetry and balance are not the same. Symmetry is how the shape of the hoof manifests externally. The left and right sides of the hoof might not match - asymmetry. But the foot can still be perfectly balanced, both from side to side and back to front. This is all about the internal structures being in the fight place for the horse to be properly supported both standing and in flight with no unnecessary tension or strain.

This is my understanding put clearly.

I see asymmetries as either a result of previous poor hoof form/health or an adaption to or reflection of, body/leg/gait asymmetry. So they can be needed for support, stability and fluid gait or a hindrance to gait and hoof function.
Does that make sense?

 

[NZJenny]

Your user name suggests you are in New Zealand?

If so, I have noticed from other posts and forums that there seems to be a fairly big difference in opinion as regards trimming between NZ and the UK, possibly because you seem to have a very high proportion of Strasser trained trimmers.

You trimming routine, to me, sounds bizarre and unnecessary. My horses are rarely trimmed at all, their growth rate matches their wear rate.

Started about three replies to this and then just decided to be the better person and let it go.

 

[NZJenny]

However. to answer your question (sorry for the interruption - phone call) surely it depends on what surfaces you are riding over and how often.

I have several BF friends, originally from the UK, and they all say they trim much more often here - the reason: they did most of their hacking in the UK on the roads and they don't have to do that here, so hence, less wear, more trimming.

 

[Tnavas]

However. to answer your question (sorry for the interruption - phone call) surely it depends on what surfaces you are riding over and how often.

I have several BF friends, originally from the UK, and they all say they trim much more often here - the reason: they did most of their hacking in the UK on the roads and they don't have to do that here, so hence, less wear, more trimming.

Very true - we rarely ride on tar seal - the camber is too steep! Our horses work far more on grass - road rides if we do them are mostly grass verges

I miss the UK hacking!

 

[LucyPriory]

Very true - we rarely ride on tar seal - the camber is too steep! Our horses work far more on grass - road rides if we do them are mostly grass verges

I miss the UK hacking!

I never thought I'd hear someone from NZ say that! Mind you I do love the South Downs, North Downs and The Ridgeway. And Salisbury Plain

 

[cptrayes]

However. to answer your question (sorry for the interruption - phone call) surely it depends on what surfaces you are riding over and how often.

I have several BF friends, originally from the UK, and they all say they trim much more often here - the reason: they did most of their hacking in the UK on the roads and they don't have to do that here, so hence, less wear, more trimming.

Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. I did not intend to offend and apologise if I did. My impression now is that you guys are working your horses a lot more than most UK barefooters are, but on less wearing surfaces.

 

[maccachic]

My horses body issues were due to feet issue I wasted a year with a basic approach trimmer and got no where, changed to my new trimmer and you can see the difference in his body shots that getting his feet balanced (along with body work)has made and this involved corrective trimming - he had years of damaged cause by shoes and being left in a paddock with no trimming before i got him.

He struggled to gain traction on hard / very soft ground and now copes perfectly.

I do most my riding on tarseal as the paddock is pretty boring to ride in (10 acres) my road is a good sized hill so great for fitness work and regularly ride at the beach.

 

[OwnedbyJoe]

1. Frequent (4 weekly trimming) doe snot have to mean you are forcing the foot into "symmetry". I trim frequently, but I have one horse with a slightly club foot and one mare who came to me with very long toes and underrun heels - due to being 19 I don't try and radically alter that - I work with the foot she has, but she still gets a touch up every four weeks. To my way of thinking, regular frequent SMALL bits of toe shortening are probably less stressful on her feet and legs than letting her grow toes for 8 weeks then lopping more off.
2. You can correct limb deformities IN FOALS by regular hoof trimming, because the bones are still growing. Not gonna happen in an adult - the bones cannot change shape, so by forcing a symmetrical foot onto a wonky leg the thing that is going to have to move to compensate is the joint.. Not a good idea.
3. To clarify, when I said I boot only for rides, I boot for COMPETITION rides. SO my horses are doing 20-25 miles a week and more completely barefoot in training, on gravel roads (at least as abrasive as UK tarmac). And their hoof growth still outpaces the wear.

 

[cptrayes]

My horses body issues were due to feet issue I wasted a year with a basic approach trimmer and got no where, changed to my new trimmer and you can see the difference in his body shots that getting his feet balanced (along with body work)has made and this involved corrective trimming - he had years of damaged cause by shoes and being left in a paddock with no trimming before i got him.

He struggled to gain traction on hard / very soft ground and now copes perfectly.

I do most my riding on tarseal as the paddock is pretty boring to ride in (10 acres) my road is a good sized hill so great for fitness work and regularly ride at the beach.

Maccachic my own experience is that if you fix the body issues the feet will reshape themselves. I can't help but wonder who really made the difference in your example, the trimmer or the bodyworker.

My most recent example of several Is a horse who has been operated on for kissing spines. His feet have made amazing changes as his gait alters with his newly freed up back. The change was so sudden that I did trim him back to a neutral start point and he has now self trimmed to accommodate a much straighter foreskin movement allowing for a leg which is not quite straight.

 

[cptrayes]

1. Frequent (4 weekly trimming) doe snot have to mean you are forcing the foot into "symmetry". I trim frequently, but I have one horse with a slightly club foot and one mare who came to me with very long toes and underrun heels - due to being 19 I don't try and radically alter that - I work with the foot she has, but she still gets a touch up every four weeks. To my way of thinking, regular frequent SMALL bits of toe shortening are probably less stressful on her feet and legs than letting her grow toes for 8 weeks then lopping more off.
2. You can correct limb deformities IN FOALS by regular hoof trimming, because the bones are still growing. Not gonna happen in an adult - the bones cannot change shape, so by forcing a symmetrical foot onto a wonky leg the thing that is going to have to move to compensate is the joint.. Not a good idea.
3. To clarify, when I said I boot only for rides, I boot for COMPETITION rides. SO my horses are doing 20-25 miles a week and more completely barefoot in training, on gravel roads (at least as abrasive as UK tarmac). And their hoof growth still outpaces the wear.

Totally agree with you. I have never met a horse that didn't self trim in the UK with enough work on abrasive surfaces - are you feeding fertilizer ???

 

[OwnedbyJoe]

I feed ****** all cptrayes, although they do get Vitamin E, selenium and biotin. They run 24/7 on a hundred acres at the moment, so they are in continuous "wandering" mode finding dry feed, which is the way I like them. I really think that being able to provide continuous low level movement stimulates the foot without actually abrading it all that much. Add to that the riding we do and they are in overdrive.

 

[cptrayes]

I feed ****** all cptrayes, although they do get Vitamin E, selenium and biotin. They run 24/7 on a hundred acres at the moment, so they are in continuous "wandering" mode finding dry feed, which is the way I like them. I really think that being able to provide continuous low level movement stimulates the foot without actually abrading it all that much. Add to that the riding we do and they are in overdrive.

Grazing wise I'm similar but twelve acres and in a big barn overnight in winter with forage dispersed so they keep moving. Most of the work one does is road and the other is arena, but they both adjust their growth to the amount of work they do and as long as I keep it at the same level, I only usually trim to take off chips.

100 acres? I hope they come when they are called !

 

[maccachic]

Maccachic my own experience is that if you fix the body issues the feet will reshape themselves. I can't help but wonder who really made the difference in your example, the trimmer or the bodyworker.

My most recent example of several Is a horse who has been operated on for kissing spines. His feet have made amazing changes as his gait alters with his newly freed up back. The change was so sudden that I did trim him back to a neutral start point and he has now self trimmed to accommodate a much straighter foreskin movement allowing for a leg which is not quite straight.

The body work was being being done for the first year with the basic trimmer when the hoof issues were corrected was when the changes in posture started to occur and I have photos documenting progress with current trimmer. Yes I agree its a chicken and egg situation you just need a good hoofcare practitioner who takes a holistic approach as one size will never fit all.

 

[LucyPriory]

Cptrayes my mind is boggling at a much straighter foreskin movement. How do you get to see that without getting run over?...

 

[cptrayes]

Oh lordy, predictive text. Never even spotted it


Though I did once own one who used to slap my feet with it

 

[LucyPriory]

Oh lordy, predictive text. Never even spotted it


Though I did once own one who used to slap my feet with it

I trim one particular stallion of Spanish persuasion who thinks having his feet done is the 'entrée' fortunately he has never made moves to progress to the main course

 

[Holidays_are_coming]

My new horse had his first trim from a equine podiatrist last week and I was a bit confused, I had used a farrier before who did both and unless there was a major problem he just left them - unfortunately he is now too far away. This new ep trimmed my horses bars, and although he had very little hoof as he self trims she took off a tiny flare. He isn't footy and appears happy but she wanted to come back in 5 weeks there is no way that he will need anything taken off then but it's the only time she comes my way. So I will be getting someone else to do them.

 

[ester]

Why don't you speak to your new EP and say you don't think there will be anything to remove and you'll update her at the 10 week point? I have put my trimmer off before.