When would you call it a day??

Z

zoeshiloh

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Some people might remember a few weeks ago my posts on a horse at the livery yard I am on - he was struck down by a mystery bug and in a really poorly state. He was basically kept alive by copious amounts of drugs and technology, and several times the owner was advised to have him PTS and end his suffering. He has been in the vets for almost 6 weeks, but the owner has now been told he can come home, although he will still need a lot of care and medication, and certainly isn't out of the woods yet.

People at the yard are applauding her for not giving up on the horse, but I am seriously torn - his future is still not great, the owner told me he is still in pain and will need lots of strong medication for months yet, if not for the rest of his life. The vets still don't know what caused this mystery bug, whether it will re-occur, or how much damage it might still cause. It has really got me thinking, how many people think they are doing the right thing by 'sticking by' their horse, believing he/she will get better - how many of these are simply keeping their horse alive to save themselves the pain of losing a loved one? Would it be kinder to have a horse PTS if you knew there would be months of pain, or that they might never be pain free again?
 
I would be in two minds. On one side if i had believed in the horse that long id want to see it through till the end, try and stick at it and save my horse, on the other i dont think i could bare to see my horse in so much pain that might never end. I think if it was me id probably end up having days of going back and forward over it in my head then more than likely decide to PTS the horses happyness would be the ultimate decider
 
for me it would depend on the horse, what was wrong and what the future was likely to be... one of mine does NOT like being in and gets grumpy if not worked, so the day he can't run round the field and be a horse is the day he dies... I hate seeing old horses standing alone in fields looking unhappy, and if they are in pain then the decision is made easy - no horse should be kept going if in pain....

can also understand people keeping them going as long as possible though, have been there myself and it is going through something like this which helps with the decision next time, such a hard thing to do...
 
This is a tough one. There is a horse at my field who had a sinus cyst removed three years ago. He then developed ringbone. He couldn't be ridden as much so the sinus problem returned. The cyst grew over 6 months and he was regularly seen banging his head against a tree to try and stop the pain.

He had a second operation and treatment for the ringbone. He then tore his DDFT. His owner wouldn't box rest so he was turned out bascially on three legs. That was a year ago and he has now come 'sound' and is being brought back into work.....(although my definition of what sound is must be different from the owner's and vet's!!!!!).

Anyway, she is over the moon that after three years she has her horse back. However, the poor thing has had three years of intense pain (and he is not young!). I would be very interested to hear what people make of situations such as these. I suppose it is easier with monty since he is 29 but I don't know what I would do if it were Zoom. I couldn't bear to see her suffering for so long, but then again could i bear to lose her without a fight?

My arse hurts from sitting on the fence so i will leave it to others to give an opinion!
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It is a very difficult thing to call. There are many stories for both having PTS or having struggled on and the horse picks up and is OK again.
Just not sure what I would do in that situation. Sorry--not much help.
 
This is such a difficult one and I have been in this position twice. The first time my shetland went down with a mystery virus and was on a drip for 3 days. She was in Liphook and they didn't know what it was but something made me hang on and she did turn the corner and is now happily fully recovered and bouncing round the paddock. My poor ID mare became suddenly very very lame and I was told her pedal bone had rotated (she had been misdiagnosed with blackthorn poisoning) and I knew I had to put her down as she was in obvious agony, taking her to hospital was going to be such a trauma and painful experience. It absolutely broke my heart and I still have not got over it 2 years later but I do know I made the right decision and I truly believe you do have a gut feeling when the time has come.
 
Sorry, I would have called it a day. Keeping a horse alive is a very different thing to a horse living. By the sounds of it, this horse is 'alive' not 'living'. I've seen far to many poor animals kept alive for reasons that arent their welfare, but the owners own emotions. Poor horse.
 
I am only going by what the owner has relayed to us - obviously I have not seen the horse since he left the yard (about 5/6 weeks ago) or the vets. I know she has said several times they thought he should be PTS, but she wanted to give him a chance to rally etc.

It's not just about this horse in particular, but generally any situation, be it injury or illness. How many people keep the horse (or any animal for that matter) alive for themselves rather than the animal's best interests??

I know it's hard - I was told to have my boy PTS twice when he was injurred (once due to the injury then again when he developed an infection) but I chose to give him a chance and battle through it, and the result was a 100% fit, healthy, sound horse.

The owner of this horse has told us he is in a lot of pain, as his entire mouth, throat, and most of his stomach was ulcerated and burnt. She said yesterday this has still not cleared, and he is stull unable to eat properly (no hay/grass etc).
 
I don't like to see horses suffering, but sometimes I think giving them more time to recover is the best thing - sometimes people take ages to recover from a bug (MRSA as an eg) and I think as long as the horse can be maintained without being in too much discomfort then maybe it is the best option?

I think it would depend on how much the horse had changed in himself too, once they have given up thats it in my eyes. If the horse is still eating, then I think carry on - once they stop then thats it I think.
 
Just from hearsay stories -it seems that some vet practices are happy to keep taking the money for as long as the client wants to spend it. They keep suggesting different treatments, different drugs, etc.

I know there are times when the horses do get better, even after a long fight, but plenty more where the owners said that with hindsight it would have been better to have PTS earlier than later.

It is very hard when it is YOUR horse to say PTS, that is where the vets should stand up for what is right for the horse.
 
It's a tough one. Very difficult thing to put down a much loved horse.
I haven't yet faced that real grey area decision but no doubt I will do at some point in my life, when I do I hope I have the courage to make the right choice.
For me it is a case of knowing the horse well, when their behaviour changes and they don't have that zest for life in their eye anymore then that is the right time.
 
personally and without knowing the full details, I think that it was selfish of the owners to put the horse through all this. Sometimes I feel that insurance has a lot to answer for. The first question seems to be "is it insured?" usually to see how far they can push the bills! or maybe this horse wasnt insured but the owners are wealthy?
As a horse lover, surely you MUST put the horses well being, which also includes its emotional state, first and foremost. If this means deciding to PTS then that must be the kindest thing you can do.
 
My horse became really ill and was referred eventually to Liphook, where they had to investigate further

Several months he was there before they diagnosed EMND. they advised that he would never have a real horse quality of life, and that I should consider PTS as I would more than likely not be able to ride anymore

My gut feeling was that it wasnt his time yet, I needed to see if he could live happily retired (especially how that horse RAN onto the waiting horsebox to come home lol!!). Miraculously he got better (with the only signs being a little muscle wastage in his neck and the biposy scars), and we went on to do some small shows etc. This was more than 10 years ago now, and he's a happy healthy 20year old (who still acts like he's 2!)

He now lives semi-retired, but with a strict diet that I found was best suited to him and grass livery.

My point after rambling on is that it depends on the circumstances, whether the horse is suffering, the illness and whether theres any chance of a quality of life and whether the owners feel they have done everything IMO
 
Gosh that is hard one, guess you can never really answer until the situation happens to you, I think if the future was un certain and it meant putting a horse through months of pain, I personally would call it a day, perhaps that makes me selfish?in my own selfish way I wouldn't want to see my horse going through the pain and suffering....perhaps that is just as selfish as another person not wanting to to call it a day because they don't want to face loosing their beloved horse.....depends which way you look at it.

Horses don't understand things like we do, they don't know that if you ''bare it for a few months and hold on in there lad because your going to get better'' you can't explain that to them, they just feel the pain and get depressed.

But i don't think anyone should judge, its never easy making the right decision.

Hope your friends horse pulls through if that is what the owner wishes for.
 
I'm currently at this stage now
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And I've been there before with another horse who I had pts due to being pollyarthritic
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It's not nice but you do have to think of the horse - it's our one final act of kindness for them.
I've got to wait til my mare is scanned to find out how much damage she has done and as to whether being pts or box rested is the most suitable option for her - I rely upon my vet's good decision.
Kate x
 
this is a difficult one as i am in a very simular situation at the moment but with a total different illness with my 12yr old. however said that my horse is going back into horspital this week and if he has not improved then i will not be bringing him home. i have stated to the vet that his quality of life is more important that my feelings for him and he was my first home bred foal born 7th june 1997 at 23.24
 
I think its a shame that, on here, people have to post on other peoples situtuations.who are we to know what exactly the situation is?surely the owner would know what is best for their horse?we never know the full story behind these situations so maybe there is more to what we are told. if they follow the vets advice (who are the experts) then they are giving their horse the best chance of pulling through. does the owner know you are putting this on here?
 
It is very difficult to call, I know from personal experience, not with my horses but one of my dogs. Shes an Irish Setter and as a 2yo she got menigitis - cutting a long story short, we saved her with about 12hours to go, it was heart renching. Immediate response was DO SOMETHING!!! 6 month later and a change of drugs (the steroids ulcertaed all her feet to pulp) she reverted back to the looney bin we know and love
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another couple of months her hair grew back (shes on chemo) and in 2 months from now (2 years later) she will be off the chemo
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and the vets are amazed. After that fingers crossed. If it comes back, we have already made the decision to have her PTS as we dont feel its fair for her to go through a lifetime of drugs with a lessened quality of life. But god forbid that happens, we will be absolutely destraught.
Just to show the luck of Irish though - she got bloat and a twisted gut 2 months ago and I was told she wouldnt survive the night....she's back as good as new
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Although our bank manager is not happy
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In this case the horse was insured, but the insurance was maxed out within two weeks of him being at the vets. The owner is not wealthy (quite the opposite sadly) but her parents are helping with the bills, and I think they have basically said to the vets cost is irrelevent (loans or whatever will be taken out). She loves the horse - there is no doubt about that
 
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In this case the horse was insured, but the insurance was maxed out within two weeks of him being at the vets. The owner is not wealthy (quite the opposite sadly) but her parents are helping with the bills, and I think they have basically said to the vets cost is irrelevent (loans or whatever will be taken out). She loves the horse - there is no doubt about that, but I don't think she would ever say "put him to sleep" unless he was seconds from death - she just wouldn't want to be without him.

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It would come to a head at some point - the vets would eventually step in if they truly believed the horse was suffering - it would border on cruelty, and no amount of money would allow them to turn a blind eye
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I think its a shame that, on here, people have to post on other peoples situtuations.who are we to know what exactly the situation is?

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Bex, I understand the point you make - I perhaps shouldn't have used an example and just asked the question. I have only relayed the facts that have been relayed to me by the owner, and have stated I have not seen the horse or spoken to any vets so only get my information 'second hand'.

As I said originally, it isn't so much about this horse in particular, I am just interested to know when people are able to call it a day and make that decision.

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surely the owner would know what is best for their horse

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This might be true in this case, but sadly not always true - I know plenty of people who have made mistakes, and I myself made a major error of judgement a few years ago. It is not always clear or simple.
 
Its only my opinion, no offence intended, but you asked what we thought....its a sad situation whatever way you look at it. I couldnt personally stand by and see a horse, even one that means the world to me, every day and watch it suffering like that. The horses welfare would be compromised too much for me Im afraid. I truly hope, for everyone involved, that the horse makes an excellant recovery.
 

It is a very hard decision to have to make and one we all hope we will never have to do, but sadly when you have horses or any animals sometimes you have to make that call.

When your horse/dog is first ill or injured I think everyone's immediate response is to do everything possible to save them, regardless of cost/time etc. Sometimes you need a bit of distance to look at things more calmly and decide if you are keeping them alive for their sake or yours.

I am a firm believer in the quality of life you are saving/prolonging, and sometimes you owe it to the animal concerned to make that heartbreaking decision and be brave enough to have them PTS.
 
In answer to the general question, each situation is different, but common sense and horse welfare should come into it. As you say, owners dont always know whats best for their horses even though they think they are doing the right thing.
 
I would make this decision earlier rather than later. Because a horse that is suffering cannot look ahead and hope that he will be getting better. He lives in the moment of the pain. Because a horse that is dead is not suffering at all, it is at peace. And because if I got it wrong, and he could have had more years of happy life after going through a period of dreadful pain, he doesn't know that, or care.
 
In this sort of situation, I would call it a day. I have utmost respect for those who can make this decision, thinking of the horse, rather than themselves.
 
I think that OP has given out far too much information on an open forum. The owner would be really upset to read all about herself at the most difficult of times surely?
 
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Its only my opinion, no offence intended, but you asked what we thought....its a sad situation whatever way you look at it. I couldnt personally stand by and see a horse, even one that means the world to me, every day and watch it suffering like that. The horses welfare would be compromised too much for me Im afraid. I truly hope, for everyone involved, that the horse makes an excellant recovery.

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Agree with this completely. To do otherwise is plain selfishness and not in the horse's best interests IMV.
 
Haven't read all the posts but my old boy was in the vets for 6 or so weeks in early 2008 and very poorly when he came back. He recovered to have a lovely summer 2009 and even competed (and won) in hand veteran showing before having to be put down for an entirely unrelated matter. To be honest probably if at the outset I had known how much pain he would be in with the 2008 problem then the decision may have been not to continue with the treatment but it was a problem that kept looking like he was over the worst and then it would get bad again. In both cases I looked to the vets for as much advice as they could give.
 
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