Where are all the smaller horses?!

Elno

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They look very TB, (and he is lovely! ) what's the breed temperament like?
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It's a mare ? Thank you! Her face looks a bit different depending on angles and what season it is. In winter she looks like a hairy bog pony and you can see the traces of northern Swedish horse in her, in spring/summer the arabian blood lines shine through. The breed is actually concidered more of draft type and they are registered in the same organisation as Lithuanian heavy drafts. The pony type has its own organisation.

At the riding school I'm boarding they have a Large Zemaituka gelding (they are actually distant relatives with each other!). He is also awesome.

The temperament is nothing but short of amazing. So intelligent, calm and people friendly (well mostly, mine tries to nip over the stable door when bored, as I wrote before) and with very big personalities. My friend loned my mare (who recently turned five) to hack out with her sister last weekend. It blew a storm and snowed. She didn't flinch an ear ?
 

pinkypug1

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It doesn’t pay to breed them unfortunately. Most breeders want to breed a ‘super star’ and most people interested in trying to produce a star want 16.2+ If they don’t make it they sell to leisure market. I don’t think many breeders now breed simply to sell to ‘hobby rider’ as they need to keep longer & produce and the hobby rider won’t pay to even cover those costs so why would a breeder bother.
 

Abi90

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I have a 2 year old RID chestnut gelding with Fintan Himself/Huntingfield Rebel in his line and he is not going to exceed 15.2 in all probability but he is super looking, intelligent and funny.

I have a Huntingfield Rebel x Ginger Dick mare. I bought her as a 15.1hh 4 year old hoping she would make 15.3/16h and be a lovely small and chunky type.... in 6 months, I kid you not, she grew to 16.2! Both heights measured with a stick... so now I have a massive chunky type, was not the plan but I love her
 

palo1

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My 'smaller' horse is 15.3/16hh and is pure Welsh D. To me, even with a 16.3 hh horse here, she doesn't seem particularly small and happily carries anyone in the family. I think fashion has a lot to do with breeders breeding larger horses, as well as riders getting bigger. Anyone and everyone seems to want competition horses and realistically, those are going to be larger horses (unless in showing/breed classes). Breeding is difficult in financial terms so it is far more tempting to breed larger horses that may command higher prices than trying to convince sellers that a smaller horse can still do it all, and sometimes better!

However, we have noticed here that smaller, cobbier types still really do command decent prices at the horse markets. These may be at the 'lower end' sort of thing where a family or individual might want a small, easily kept strong type that might be ridden intermittently or just quietly hacked out. It is definately difficult to find a smaller 'sportier' sort of horse and it is a great shame that breeding like the Anglo Arab etc is on the wane. We really struggled to find a decent TB stallion when we looked, for covering one of our 16hh mares but they are about if you look I think!

ETA - 3 of our horses are 16hh or under! We have a couple of 1/2 bred arabs and a standardbred x . They are the perfect size I reckon; small enough to be healthy, easy to keep, fun and good looking!! Our larger horse grew more than we anticipated but he is also 1/2 arab and gorgeous. :) Two of the family are over 6ft in height too so potentially there would be motivation to have whoppers lol.
 
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Cherryblossom

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I definitely think that people are trying to breed bigger, flashier horses with recognised names in their pedigree. My mare should make 15.1/15.2. Her sire is a lovely 16h buckskin ISH. The dam threw a few foals from him which are all good looking, chilled allrounders. But for the last 3 years they’ve moved to putting her in foal to a big flashy show jumper. I hope/suspect Poppy will turn out to be the sort of horse so many people want, and yet I got her for £1800 when was was just turned 3yo, which can’t be a lucrative business for anyone!
 

palo1

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I definitely think that people are trying to breed bigger, flashier horses with recognised names in their pedigree. My mare should make 15.1/15.2. Her sire is a lovely 16h buckskin ISH. The dam threw a few foals from him which are all good looking, chilled allrounders. But for the last 3 years they’ve moved to putting her in foal to a big flashy show jumper. I hope/suspect Poppy will turn out to be the sort of horse so many people want, and yet I got her for £1800 when was was just turned 3yo, which can’t be a lucrative business for anyone!

No, I imagine that would represent significant loss.
 

ihatework

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It’s such a tricky market! But I do agree it’s a big market but unfortunately, in general, that part of the market just won’t pay the price that makes it specifically worthwhile to produce for.

Bar the stud fees (which I could argue wouldn’t be as high for a 15.2hh junior/amateur allrounder), the basic cost of getting them to 3/4 is fairly similar to a fashionably bred 16.2hh.

The ‘problem’ is that many in the 15.2hh market don’t want them raw. They also don’t want them over produced. So to get the balance right with the best raw material and at least 2 years careful and sympathetic production takes experience and costs a lot of money. Not to mention the risk of it going wrong. Do that with a 16.2hh and you will see 15k if the horse has little talent or 30/40k if it’s looking good or 100k if exceptional. Do that with a 15.2hh aged 6 and you are probably talking 10-20k, but there will be a huge % of the market wanting it for 6k.

Those amateurs making the horses themselves aren’t going to just sell them at 6+ when they have produced what they want (unless it’s for £££), but they will come on the market if they have been messed up!

Don’t get me wrong, the 15.2s have huge value when they are proving very competitive and taking a junior safely, I’ve seen money frequently in the 60-150k bracket, but it’s a numbers and time game and there are far more losses than there are wins.

At that really desirable RC/grassroots there is unfortunately not enough return for it to be financially viable to target, plus buyers in that market can be more fussy than the competition market. Very tricky.
 

JoannaC

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It's a shame the inhand scene has given arabs such a bad name because your old fashioned leg at each corner Arab really are the perfect leisure horse that will turn a hoof to anything at a riding club level which is really all most people want. They aren't as loopy as people think either, even my hot mare was always completely safe and my current ridden mare is an absolute poppet and very sensible but still nice and forward going.
 

palo1

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It's a shame the inhand scene has given arabs such a bad name because your old fashioned leg at each corner Arab really are the perfect leisure horse that will turn a hoof to anything at a riding club level which is really all most people want. They aren't as loopy as people think either, even my hot mare was always completely safe and my current ridden mare is an absolute poppet and very sensible but still nice and forward going.

I think it is very sad that the 'fashion' or prevailing wind/whatever has led many, many leisure riders away from the traditional but somewhat smaller 'all rounder' types and breeds to be honest. I really don't want to offend or upset anyone in relation to horse breeds/types but the natives/arabs and more 'traditional' sports horses are so well suited to that where the heavier cob types, wonderful as they are, may well struggle to make the times/heights etc and have a particular physicality which isn't the same as a smaller sports horse/all rounder yet the exceptions that prove the rule mean that they have become enormously popular (and expensive) for those folk who want an easy 'leisure horse' of a certain size as well as leaving the market for 'traditional' sportier types smaller/less realistic for producers. In my experience there is a rather sad culture too, at the other end of the market, of leisure riders (eg me!) over-horsing themselves with larger and sometimes too sportingly bred horses to do the same job - again to the detriment of the more traditional and smaller sporting types. Often these horses are only on the leisure market as it were as they are not suited to the top level.

A final element seems to be that anyone who has a decent 'smaller' horse for all round stuff hangs onto it as they are rarer and very, very desirable!


Not sure if that makes sense but I think I knew what I meant lol!!
 

palo1

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i was looking the other day for anglo or part bred arab mares, very little available

Yes, it is really sad; a decent anglo arab is a truly wonderful horse. OH and I often reflect on how lovely it would be to breed them or to stand a decent TB stallion to promote this kind of breeding for the leisure market. We, in the equestrian world, have become sadly aspirational in some ways and have thrown the leisure horse baby out with the bathwater in our desire to become increasingly 'professional' even at amateur level. I know horses cost a huge amount of money to keep and that for many people competing at a higher level helps to justify that on some level, but even so it 'feels' a bit like the fun of leisure riding has been lost a bit in that way. I am very glad to have smaller, probably less capable horses though; they are absolutely good enough for me lol!! :)
 

tristar

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i was looking for breeding mares to put to anglo arab x pre stallion 15.2.hh, with tb mares he gets 16.2 hh.am definitely looking to breed sport horses not that big

i think top class sporty horses come in all sizes, one of my favourites is international show jumper flipper d`elle is 15. 3 hh
 

ycbm

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It's a shame the inhand scene has given arabs such a bad name because your old fashioned leg at each corner Arab really are the perfect leisure horse that will turn a hoof to anything at a riding club level which is really all most people want. They aren't as loopy as people think either, even my hot mare was always completely safe and my current ridden mare is an absolute poppet and very sensible but still nice and forward going.


So true. My first horse was a newly broken 4 year old Arab, as wide as they make them and he broke all the rules about novice owners and novice horses. I knew no better at the time and he was what I could afford!
.
 

Meowy Catkin

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i was looking the other day for anglo or part bred arab mares, very little available

I realised too late that I should have had a foal or two from mine, It's a big regret but I thought I was doing the right thing at the time. I should have put her in foal to my gelding's sire who's sadly now deceased and my mare is too old. Hindsight is a real bummer. :(
 

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite

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There's always been a shortage of anything decent around the size OP has mentioned.

Every time I've been in the sad position of losing a much-loved ride and having to look for another, it's been the same over the years!!

Last time was four years ago. No I didn't want a pony I said, nooohh deffo not a youngster, nor a coloured, not a mare, or a hairy beastie with lots of feather!

Ehm.... yep, that's exactly what I brought home. She walked up to me in the field and "chose" me, not the other way around, the little monkey, decided I was a sucker and she was coming back with me. Best decision I ever made was to say "yes" and bring her home.......
 

zandp

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so 2 days ago I was looking for a friend for livery yards, and thought I'd remembered someone's name so googled her - it wasn't her, but there was a lovely NF/Appy gelding for sale, 15hh - my perfect height. Now buying lottery tickets so that I can get a 3rd without OH combusting as he was really lovely and it's fortuitous isn't it when you make a mistake and come across something you'd love :D
 

Wishfilly

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My 'smaller' horse is 15.3/16hh and is pure Welsh D. To me, even with a 16.3 hh horse here, she doesn't seem particularly small and happily carries anyone in the family. I think fashion has a lot to do with breeders breeding larger horses, as well as riders getting bigger. Anyone and everyone seems to want competition horses and realistically, those are going to be larger horses (unless in showing/breed classes). Breeding is difficult in financial terms so it is far more tempting to breed larger horses that may command higher prices than trying to convince sellers that a smaller horse can still do it all, and sometimes better!

However, we have noticed here that smaller, cobbier types still really do command decent prices at the horse markets. These may be at the 'lower end' sort of thing where a family or individual might want a small, easily kept strong type that might be ridden intermittently or just quietly hacked out. It is definately difficult to find a smaller 'sportier' sort of horse and it is a great shame that breeding like the Anglo Arab etc is on the wane. We really struggled to find a decent TB stallion when we looked, for covering one of our 16hh mares but they are about if you look I think!

ETA - 3 of our horses are 16hh or under! We have a couple of 1/2 bred arabs and a standardbred x . They are the perfect size I reckon; small enough to be healthy, easy to keep, fun and good looking!! Our larger horse grew more than we anticipated but he is also 1/2 arab and gorgeous. :) Two of the family are over 6ft in height too so potentially there would be motivation to have whoppers lol.

I love the 15-16hh sports type welsh Ds. They seem like the sort of horse that can do anything a connie can do with a slightly lower (at the moment) price tag.

It's a shame the inhand scene has given arabs such a bad name because your old fashioned leg at each corner Arab really are the perfect leisure horse that will turn a hoof to anything at a riding club level which is really all most people want. They aren't as loopy as people think either, even my hot mare was always completely safe and my current ridden mare is an absolute poppet and very sensible but still nice and forward going.

I agree, arabs are excellent all rounders, I have known some that can safely take a novice, and a lot that would make a lovely all rounder. I have a friend who used to compete hers at 90cm show jumping and unaff eventing, too, and did amazingly.

I think there is a stereotype that arabs can't jump/can't do XYZ, but I think most can jump well enough for the average rider!
 

JoannaC

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you could of course just show them as in this video. Make them look "normal" :)

Always loved this video, the Crabbet classes are shown in the traditional way, anyone whipping and whooping are not welcome :) Personally I never saw the point of showing in hand once the horse was rideable and must admit I didn't realise it was a thing when I had my first Arab as I wasn't part of that world so she was just another horse and expected to jump, hack, dressage etc
 

tristar

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I realised too late that I should have had a foal or two from mine, It's a big regret but I thought I was doing the right thing at the time. I should have put her in foal to my gelding's sire who's sadly now deceased and my mare is too old. Hindsight is a real bummer. :(

oh what shame would have been good to carry forward the bloodlines
 

tristar

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you could of course just show them as in this video. Make them look "normal" :)

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fabulous fabulous horses ,real horses with quality, movement and substance, i have one with Comet, lady anne imported a son of his to england for crabbet
 
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