Where Does It Stop

[GTs]

There are currently many debates about sedation on the forum - with its increase use, first for clipping, and now for fireworks where is it going to stop? Are we going to sedate horses for thunder and lightening, and then when it rains as in the barn it is noisy, how about on windy days when the leafs rustle through the hedge?

Sedation is the antithesis of desensitization - every time you sedate to get passed a problem the problem is getting worse, and future problems will spore of it. Are fireworks that different then thunder and lightening? Is clipping all that different from brushing? No, it is just horses see the later more often.

Someone mentioned they sedated their horse because they did not want them breaking a leg galloping around outside - it is an understandable concepts, however these risks are always going to be there - understanding your horse might die from falling and breaking their leg, or being kicked, or colicing is part of horse ownership. I personally believe it is better to let horses be horses, all the cotton wool in the world can not eliminate these risks, and your horses will be better off without human interference – they do so in he wild.

I think this all ties into the concept that I believe 90% of horses whose owners say 'they fear something' actually do not fear it at all; they just know they can get away with misbehaving in that situation.

Basically what I am trying to say - is love your horses, let them be horses, and do not let them make you believe they are scared, cause they probably aren't - try it and I am sure you will worry less, have more and better horses.

Just my brain dump while I sit here in the cmputer room.

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

Hopefully here...too many topics about sedation....it's been discussed to death...........hopefully it will go away for a while now.

 

[pottamus]

Fair enough...can't argue with you there! But then I am an anti sedation for such things as clipping and fireworks too...
I think we as horse owners are guilty of cotton wooling our horses...but I am sure we do the same for our other pets and even...dare I say it...children to a certain extent??? It is human nature to protect things we love...not that that is an excuse mind!

 

[lilym]

some good points there GTS. as i said in a previous post i sedate my mare just to clip legs, it is downright sodding dangerous to try without at the mo, she kicks big time and means it, because she had such a crap past, there is no point hitting her - she will kick back - and i have tried the nicely, nicely approach - still kicks and means it! and twitching with a strapping bloke holding up a leg, she flicked him off like a fly, just missing his vital parts - soooo it really is too dangerous to continue. having said that i will drop the dose each time to find the lightest level of sedation possible, don't say don't clip, she needs it.....she gets as itchy as hell with feathers on, and is shown as well.
on the subject of fireworks, perhaps i am lucky but none of mine seem bothered, they just stand there and watch, we have a massive display just down the road and the horses all stand there watching! i think sometimes if an owner is stressed and anxious it passes to the horse..... thunder and lightning- i don't worry about, there is a remote chance they may be hit but putting it into context it's pretty rare....
sedation for other stressful situations......my mare had a problem with lorries, so i bagged the paddock next to the road where lorries go to the gravel pits, first couple of days she spent running away, but once she realized they wern't out to get her she doesn't bother... too much effort! but i certainly didn't sedate her for that!! made her just get over it!!

 

[Tia]

Then these people who want to protect their horses should do it in a rational form........ie. a form that means/teaches something to the animal, not to benefit the human!

Time, understanding and effort ......... that's what I believe is seriously lacking in today's horsemanship world. All going to hell in a handbasket as they say.

 

[lilym]

agree time and patience are often missing from today's horsemanship, but i've tried to desensitize this bugger for 18 months!! the old girl will stand to be clipped without even being tied up!! (i clip her cushings coat in summer) i just stand her in the stable with a feed and get on with it, the yearling will have the machine run over her body and legs whilst on so i don't think (hope not) that it's anything i'm doing wrong, i just have to accept moo will always be "sharp" to clip. she can try it on when being loaded as well but after a few training sessions is now a good girl!

 

[Skhosu]

Hear hear. I hate sedation for routinte things that can be easily dealt with.
I suppose I will now contradict you by saying sometimes they are genuinely afraid (my boy with needles!) and sometimes they're not (other one with clippers..pretends to be scared then ignores them..)

 

[Agent XXX999]

I fear that this is going to turn into another debate, says the girl who sedates her horse becasue of fireworks....

I think that it is up to the owner, I will continue to sedate becasue he is downright dangerous to himself if I dont and would rather have him sedated for one or two nights than cause himself an injury and have to go through months of medical treatment.

Its not because I cant be bothered...I work with my horses to overcome things all of the time, but some things are more difficult to overcome.

 

[Skhosu]

OOI, how come your horse is fine with bangs but not fireworks? Can he see them or something? Otherwise, how can he differentiate?

 

[Agent XXX999]

Have no idea, he can see them, I have a deaf dog that quivers under the sofa when they go of too (we dont sedate her!) I think it is something in the air, like the vibrations, because he is not like it with anything else.

He is actually a danger to himself.

 

[MillionDollar]

I totally agree. I've never had to have a horse sedated and never will. All of mine are fine with clipping and with fireworks, i do think in some situations the owner makes it 100 times worse.

 

[SirenaXVI]

Don't think I am qualified to discuss this subject - have never ever sedated any of my horses

 

[Agent XXX999]

grrrr i dont make it worse, or why dont all mine go loopy!

 

[lilym]

come and clip some legs then!! dare you.

 

[Agent XXX999]

lilym I callanged people to come and get my ned used to fireworks the other night and had no offers....!

Easy to give opinions when you are not in the situation - you have my every sympathy, and carry on sedating I say!

xx

 

[SirenaXVI]

[ QUOTE ]
grrrr i dont make it worse, or why dont all mine go loopy!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! Now then I said I haven't ever but did not say I wouldn't ever

Seriously tho - all horses are indeed different and although I don't sedate my horses, who am I to say that others shoudn't? Although on the other hand I also think that it is a little overused by some.

Just call me Confused of Cambs

 

[Tia]

Put the damn horse outside in a field when there are fireworks! I very much doubt anything will happen to him and I bet anything he gets over this nonsense about fireworks.

Your horse really is NOT that special. He is NOT unique. He WILL get over it if you deal with him in a rational manner.....that is don't bloody lock him up in a dark little box when his instincts are to escape that box.

 

[lilym]

too right! i can't afford to spend several weeks in hospital!! when 1/2 ton of very pissed of horse kicks me!!

 

[Ginn]

The only time I have ever had Tilly sedated was the day her 2 field mates were pts leaving her on her own for the first time in her life while I was out the country. The vet suggested he gave her a small dose of sedalin when he arrived, before S + R were pts and I think it made things a lot easier for everyone - my YO could grieve her loss without watch Tilly become destraught, I knew that although there was nothing I could do she was in safe hands and the vet said (and I believe in this instance that he was right) that it made the shock of suddenly being on her own at the age of 2 for the first time in her life a much easier transition.

However, shortly after the event my YO took on a friends mare who was being weaned from her foal for a few weeks and when Tilly was separated from her at the end of her stay, once again leaving her on her own I left her do it - she ran around, screamed her head off, threw herself on the floor due to charging around and survived however horrible it was for me to watch and now I have a horse who has overcome her separation anxiety.

Incidentally, I discovered why she had found ast sat night terrifing - she had 2 huge rockets land on the roof above her stable and several smaller ones were found on the yard but sunday night she was as quiet as a lamb even though fireworks were going off everywhere once again.

 

[Agent XXX999]

Tia, he is special, he is unique (as everyones horses are) He is a high bred competition horse who is very sharp and sensitive and I am not risking him breaking a leg/pulling something Nor am I risking his wellbeing, or undoing the years of hard work which have got him to where he is.

I will happily pay for your return flight for you to come and cure him seeing as though you are such an expert on the matter, so long as you dont sue me when you get hurt trying to do it...and pay his vets bills etc when you see what he gets like.

 

[Skhosu]

being a high bred competition horse makes him special in what way? Maybe you didn't mean for it to come across as arrogant, but i sure did!

 

[Agent XXX999]

Not arrogant, just getting ever so wound up - there is a considerable difference between my hairy ponies and the 2 I compete on in temprament etc...as well as what they are worth.

Really sorry but I feel like I have to defend him and explain why I dont want to risk him being shoved in a field!

All neds are special, didnt mean it like that. : (

 

[Skhosu]

sorry..but a happy hacker can be as same in temperment as your competition horse.....
I suspect you did though......
Anyway, perhaps this debate has been going on too long, and we should just forget it?

 

[Tia]

I know what you mean't, but your cossetting of him is not helping him in the slightest.

I've owned a tonne of horses over the past 40 years but the one I have in mind for describing to you is this one. I had a Grade B showjumper for 16 years in England and she was a nutter in certain instances, so yes I know what you are talking about. She was exactly the same as your boy - if she was pinned in a stable and something worried her, she would thrash around like someone was trying to cut her up, serve her on a dinner plate and eat her alive! I know!

I also thought like you that there was no way this horse could change......no SHE couldn't....but I could! And that's what I did - I totally changed the way that I dealt with her fears and it worked.

Your's honestly isn't the only sensitive horse in the world - there are plenty around. Now after all this banter about sedating or not, I am worn out and it really doesn't impact me whether people stick pins into their horses; however it does become tiring when people become so melodramatic about not being able to do something with their horse because it is FAR worse than any other horse in the whole world. It just isn't true.

 

[Tia]

[ QUOTE ]
I will happily pay for your return flight for you to come and cure him

[/ QUOTE ]

And I will be happy to come and meet your boy.

Thank you for the offer; somewhere around the HHO meet-up would be perfect for me.....I think I can arrange cover for all my guys out here at that time of the year.

 

[GTs]

[ QUOTE ]
lilym I callanged people to come and get my ned used to fireworks the other night and had no offers....!

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
come and clip some legs then!! dare you.

[/ QUOTE ]

One visit is not going to change behaviour - maybe it is this lust for instantaous results which makes sedation your method of choice.

I would speak to Patches, last year her and I had this 'discussion' about sedating to clip, she was adimant that her horse will NEEDED it - one year later she is clipping away no probs, and no sedative.

[ QUOTE ]
He is a high bred competition horse who is very sharp and sensitiv

[/ QUOTE ]

I have always found the competition horses easier to solve these problems with - they are smarter, have seen more, been worked through more situations so they naturally at an advantage to mold in other aspects.

Infact my mare Clarita was the hottest polo pony I have ridden - she was a little fire cracker!! Fast as lightening, head in the game with 100% focus. But outside the game she was so docile, nothing phased her.

[ QUOTE ]
Nor am I risking his wellbeing

[/ QUOTE ]

Sedatives are not risk free.

 

[SSM]

Do you want to get your arse over here and clip my horse for me then?

I have spent the summer desensitising her with the trimmers - I need her clipping NOW and will continue the process but I am sedating - I am not putting myself or anyone else in danger.

 

[JACQSZOO]

Sedation, IMO, just makes the situation worse.
Have any of you ever been sedated? Its the most terrifying experience ever. You can hear everything going on around you, sometimes you can see everything too but you cant move, you cant communicated - it is truly terrifying.
You sedate your horse so you can do something you consider necessary to him/her, he still understands whats going on, he is still terrified but he is unable to do anything about it. For a flight animal that has got to be about the worst thing you can do to him.

 

[burtie]

[ QUOTE ]
Tia, he is special, he is unique (as everyones horses are) He is a high bred competition horse who is very sharp and sensitive and I am not risking him breaking a leg/pulling something Nor am I risking his wellbeing, or undoing the years of hard work which have got him to where he is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm what's that got to do with it, Herbie is a very well bred competition horse, and he was out with another very well bred comp horse as a yearling in the midst of a major firework display in a nearby house. In fact he live out so I had no stables. I went round to check on him to find him munching his hay and watching the display.

How does your horse cope with thunder and lightning?

 

[riotgirl]

I do not sedate. Mainly because I wouldn't really know how to saftely.

I am a firm believer of working out why a horse has certain problems and working through them.