Which bit for strong horse?

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0310Star

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I have posted before about my bitting issues with my mare and have tried everything that has been suggested and I am still massively struggling!
My horse is a 16.2hh TB mare, 16 years old and overall a really nice laid back horse! Since owning her (4 and a half years) I have always struggled with which bit to use as she has never felt "right" and has always been extremely reluctant to take any kind of contact. She naturally has a very high head carriage which wont be helping matters but I don't think this is the issue.
She has a tendency of spinning when she doesn't want to go somewhere (mouth wide open so the bit slips though) and she also knows if she lifts her head really high then I have no brakes which is proving more of an issue at the moment as I do most of my schooling out on hacks. She is never nasty, just really difficult! I am going to try a flash again but when I have used them in the past she has always spent most of the ride fighting it which then just add's to the problems.

I have tried:
Loose ring snaffle with split lozenge (each side moves independently)
Single jointed snaffle
Hanging cheek snaffle with copper lozenge
Full cheek snaffle with copper peanut (this so far has been the best other than the lack of brakes!)
Tom Thumb
Magic snaffle
full cheek Waterford

I have always tried to keep the bits as light as possible, I tried the Waterford as someone suggested she may like how it would sit in her mouth and this is the most recent thing I have used, but I feel she was worse in this that the others with even higher head carriage and still no brakes!! She has a really hard mouth and leans quite badly as well but I have always tried to keep it light as I don't want to make matter worse but now I am now feeling that I just don't have the control I need with the lighter bits.

Question is... What do I try now?! I am feeling really lost with what to use so any advice would be much appreciated. I have also contacted the bit bank but thought I would post here too.

Thank you in advance!
 
have you tried a Pelham or kimberwick? not as harsh as they look, and designed to lower the head, if you want to try without a flash the curb action helps close the mouth too. Not great for a horse that leans though so maybe try a 4 ring gag with French link or Waterford mouthpiece as the poll pressure is designed to lower the head, but the jointed mouthpiece is difficult to lean on. My horse goes best in exciting situations such as jumping and hunting in his 4 ring / dutch gag Waterford. The Waterford on the "snaffle" ring isn't much use, and he has a martingale on too. He also wears a flash as he opens his mouth a lot! hacks, dressages (doubt that's a word lol ) and schools lovely in a snaffle when not out at shows etc so don't think it will harden her mouth, it shouldn't if you school her regularly in a weaker bit where possible and I've found something a bit stronger teaches them to respect the contact a bit more if they are being rude. I'll assume you've had her teeth checked and other things such as saddle fit ! but if not, i'd start there.
 
Hoof_Prints said:
have you tried a Pelham or kimberwick? not as harsh as they look, and designed to lower the head, if you want to try without a flash the curb action helps close the mouth too. Not great for a horse that leans though so maybe try a 4 ring gag with French link or Waterford mouthpiece as the poll pressure is designed to lower the head, but the jointed mouthpiece is difficult to lean on. My horse goes best in exciting situations such as jumping and hunting in his 4 ring / dutch gag Waterford. The Waterford on the "snaffle" ring isn't much use, and he has a martingale on too. He also wears a flash as he opens his mouth a lot! hacks, dressages (doubt that's a word lol ) and schools lovely in a snaffle when not out at shows etc so don't think it will harden her mouth, it shouldn't if you school her regularly in a weaker bit where possible and I've found something a bit stronger teaches them to respect the contact a bit more if they are being rude. I'll assume you've had her teeth checked and other things such as saddle fit ! but if not, i'd start there.
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Thanks for the reply, everything is checked and fine... she is just being rude lol Like I say she is a very sweet horse and generally very laid back but she is lacking manners when it comes to her bit and I don't think having a tug of war with her currently in every bit we try is helping! Which is why I think I need to admit defeat with the weaker bits :(

I like the idea of the french link 4 ring gag but I have never used a gag before so would I keep her in it full time and use the snaffle ring for schooling and then a lower ring for hacking? And what is the difference between a 3 ring and a 4 ring gag? And also can you use a flash with it? Someone also suggested a grackle but again I am not too sure about this having never used one....
I cant say I liked how she was in the waterford at all so I think we will put that one down to experience lol!
 
If she didn't accept a flash before I think it's unlikely she will again- I'd also say try a gag, I use a KY Rotary gag and so far it's going really well- you can change on to the snaffle ring for schooling if you want to as well.

I posted on here a while ago about bitting problems with my horse and in the same boat as you had tried waterfords, every kind of snaffle I could get hold of and a pelham, as well as I had tried a flash, martingale and even a bitless bridle!
So far the gag has proved the best yet- he doesn't flap his head up to evade it and he doesn't have his head on his chest either (which was a problem for us in the pelham)

I've found that he was very tanky in a snaffle and extremely strong and leaning on the bit, however with the gag he has just "let go" and I can school on a very loose rein for the first time since owning him- so although a gag is seen as stronger you might find you don't' need nearly as much contact on the reins for transitions or brakes when you need them! I don't use the snaffle rein on the gag as it makes him pull again- so well worth a go!

Here's a link to the one I have- the mouthpiece has really changed how he goes- far more accepting of contact
http://www.horsebitbank.com/ky-rotary-double-jointed-pessoa-369.phtml
 
0310Star said:
Thanks for the reply, everything is checked and fine... she is just being rude lol Like I say she is a very sweet horse and generally very laid back but she is lacking manners when it comes to her bit and I don't think having a tug of war with her currently in every bit we try is helping! Which is why I think I need to admit defeat with the weaker bits :(

I like the idea of the french link 4 ring gag but I have never used a gag before so would I keep her in it full time and use the snaffle ring for schooling and then a lower ring for hacking? And what is the difference between a 3 ring and a 4 ring gag? And also can you use a flash with it? Someone also suggested a grackle but again I am not too sure about this having never used one....
I cant say I liked how she was in the waterford at all so I think we will put that one down to experience lol!
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four ring gag just has an extra ring for more leverage, can just stick it on the 3rd ring if you don't want that much, but at least it give you the option. I keep the bit on and then just switch reins to another ring unless I use a different bridle. A three ring gag Is also known as a universal gag and the four ring is a dutch gag if you go bit shopping! I use a flash with mine, never used a grackle but ive heard good things about them on strong horses, but they are designed for horses that cross the jaw so I guess you will know if that suits your horse. Too be honest, once she learns to back off the bit and carry herself rather than haul you around she may be able to drop back down to a snaffle :)

its tricky to advise with the flash, if she opens her mouth to evade it seems a good idea but obviously getting in to a battle is not ideal.
 
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Def worth you getting a good independant instructor out to observe you riding as they might well make suggestions based on what they see & can then reccomend to try.

OP, if you DO use a gag, then do use 2 reins on it as this is what they are designed for :) (apologies if you were going to do this tho)
 
Thank you all for the replies, I think the gag is going to be the best thing for us to try!!

I agree the flash probably wont work, I think I am just hoping for a miracle on that one! lol I also want to avoid a martingale if I can help it.

I didn't realise you would need 2 reins on a gag (sorry if that's a really dumb statement lol) I was hoping I wouldn't need 2 reins for whatever I tried as I have never used 2 before?

Instructors in the past have had the same idea's as me and at a loss, and my issues are out and about which would obviously mean what she is like in the school wouldn't really help which my hacking issues so not too sure another instructor would be much help :(
 
Slightlyconfused said:
Have you thought about a kineton? It's helped my friends horse have brakes, she can now go out in a group in the kineton and a gag, or snaffle, and stop.
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Could you explain what one is? I cant say I have come across one before?

Its really hard to explain, she doesn't tank off at all but if for example I take her up into a canter on the gallops, or as yesterday in even in the school, I just cannot stop when I ask. Same with the trot. I am well aware my seat is going to be a massive factor in this but I am doing all I can in that respect, her mouth is just so hard that I may as well not have a bit or reins! She also very rarely will take a contact and just goes like a giraffe which also makes me think the bit is an issue still. But because she isn't nasty as such its been quite a hard decision as I can eventually stop... Does that make sense or not at all? lol
 
0310Star said:
Could you explain what one is? I cant say I have come across one before?

Its really hard to explain, she doesn't tank off at all but if for example I take her up into a canter on the gallops, or as yesterday in even in the school, I just cannot stop when I ask. Same with the trot. I am well aware my seat is going to be a massive factor in this but I am doing all I can in that respect, her mouth is just so hard that I may as well not have a bit or reins! She also very rarely will take a contact and just goes like a giraffe which also makes me think the bit is an issue still. But because she isn't nasty as such its been quite a hard decision as I can eventually stop... Does that make sense or not at all? lol
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Sounds like my friends mare, nothing she tried her in would do and she had teeth and back/ done yearly. She doesn't run away, is in a nice canter or trot but doesn't come back when asked.

This is a link to one. Some say they are harsh but they really aren't. It's a nose band with hooks round the bit so when they lean they are leaning on themselves not you if that makes sense. As long as you ride soft and it's a nice peace of tack. My friends mare is defiantly happier in it. And you can have it with most a pony bits but she uses a gag or a snaffle with it.

http://www.saddlery.biz/kineton-noseband.html?gclid=CMf8mvLV-cACFVDItAod5woAtA
 
Slightlyconfused said:
Sounds like my friends mare, nothing she tried her in would do and she had teeth and back/ done yearly. She doesn't run away, is in a nice canter or trot but doesn't come back when asked.

This is a link to one. Some say they are harsh but they really aren't. It's a nose band with hooks round the bit so when they lean they are leaning on themselves not you if that makes sense. As long as you ride soft and it's a nice peace of tack. My friends mare is defiantly happier in it. And you can have it with most a pony bits but she uses a gag or a snaffle with it.

http://www.saddlery.biz/kineton-noseband.html?gclid=CMf8mvLV-cACFVDItAod5woAtA
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This sounds promising! What kind of bit am I best to use it with as she generally needs a full cheek fulmer for her spinning issues?
 
My ex-racer is the same he's very strong and will just ignore you in most. I tried the same list as you pretty much and the harsher the bit the worse he got. The bit we're using now is actually the last thing i thought of - happymouth straight bar eggbutt. Hes relaxed in the mouth and not as strong, sometimes going softer works. Not sure what help this is for you but could be worth a go.
 
SparkleB said:
My ex-racer is the same he's very strong and will just ignore you in most. I tried the same list as you pretty much and the harsher the bit the worse he got. The bit we're using now is actually the last thing i thought of - happymouth straight bar eggbutt. Hes relaxed in the mouth and not as strong, sometimes going softer works. Not sure what help this is for you but could be worth a go.
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It was similar with my ex-racer. I ended up riding him in a loose ring, straight bar Nathe. If you are finding you are pulling the bit through your horse's mouth then you would want to fit bit biscuit rings to it. If you do go down this route I would suggest hiring an arena to try it in as you don't want to find you have no brakes with it when on a hack.

I would be tempted to persevere with the standing martingale - making sure it is not too tight to start with.
 
SparkleB said:
My ex-racer is the same he's very strong and will just ignore you in most. I tried the same list as you pretty much and the harsher the bit the worse he got. The bit we're using now is actually the last thing i thought of - happymouth straight bar eggbutt. Hes relaxed in the mouth and not as strong, sometimes going softer works. Not sure what help this is for you but could be worth a go.
Click to expand...

Funny you should say this, I was actually looking at the happy mouth 3 ring gag... I thought maybe this might be worth a try? So if I need to extra brakes I can drop it down a ring but generally use it as a snaffle still if I wanted
 
Very quickly - 3 and 4 ring "gags" are not actually gags - they are lever bits. Lever bits put pressure on the poll when engaged and ask the head to lower, gags ask the head to raise when engaged.

If she sticks her head up so you have no control try a running martingale - this will allow you to keep control via reins when she raises her head up. The rings on the martingale allow your reins to "pull down" when you put pressure on them so you still have control.

A mexican grackle/figure 8 noseband will stop her crossing her jaw (if she does this) and can also act in a slightly similar way to a flash. If she gapes and doesn't like the flash and only gapes when she is "being rude" then probably a different bit would work to stop that. Maybe try a thicker bit so there is less pressure on the bars. Also I would suggest contacting the bit bank and talking it through with them.

In regards to the 4 ring "gag" you can ride with the reins on any ring, but should really use it with 2 reins if you stick them on the bottom ring. One rein on the snaffle and the other on a lower ring for back-up, like most other double rein bit combos.
 
0310Star said:
Funny you should say this, I was actually looking at the happy mouth 3 ring gag... I thought maybe this might be worth a try? So if I need to extra brakes I can drop it down a ring but generally use it as a snaffle still if I wanted
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Its worth a go, they're fairly cheap too so you're not wasting too much. And as said above my old lad was in a nathe loose ring as he was strong and had no respect for the bit. If you can get him to accept and go softer through the mouth/neck it can really change how they behave, including lowering head carriage.
 
Kylara said:
Very quickly - 3 and 4 ring "gags" are not actually gags - they are lever bits. Lever bits put pressure on the poll when engaged and ask the head to lower, gags ask the head to raise when engaged.

If she sticks her head up so you have no control try a running martingale - this will allow you to keep control via reins when she raises her head up. The rings on the martingale allow your reins to "pull down" when you put pressure on them so you still have control.

A mexican grackle/figure 8 noseband will stop her crossing her jaw (if she does this) and can also act in a slightly similar way to a flash. If she gapes and doesn't like the flash and only gapes when she is "being rude" then probably a different bit would work to stop that. Maybe try a thicker bit so there is less pressure on the bars. Also I would suggest contacting the bit bank and talking it through with them.

In regards to the 4 ring "gag" you can ride with the reins on any ring, but should really use it with 2 reins if you stick them on the bottom ring. One rein on the snaffle and the other on a lower ring for back-up, like most other double rein bit combos.
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Thank you, that reply is really interesting and definitely food for thought! I think I will give the running martingale a try with the bit that I have found to be best suited out of all of the ones I have tried. If it still doesn't work then I will have a look at stronger bits like the happy mouth 3 ring gag.

I really hope I can resolve this as it is really frustrating now :(
 
Happy to be of help.

Also just out of interest, how is she on the lunge? Does she gape and fling her head up as well? You said she tends to do it on being asked to transition down, so maybe some lunge work to help her improve her balance and self carriage through transitions would help?

Running martingales are good because they don't do anything unless the head pops above a certain level and even then they just allow the reins to remain effective so any pressure asks for downwards head movement.

If the bits "run through" her mouth try full cheek versions or get the rubber biscuits that go between the "rings" and the mouthpiece so that the bit doesn't get dragged through the mouth :)

If you do look for stronger bits don't go for gags - look for lever bits as they ask for the head to lower :) Make sure you have a thick/wide poll strap on the bridle though so you don't cause pain when the lever action is engaged :)
 
Kylara said:
Happy to be of help.

Also just out of interest, how is she on the lunge? Does she gape and fling her head up as well? You said she tends to do it on being asked to transition down, so maybe some lunge work to help her improve her balance and self carriage through transitions would help?

Running martingales are good because they don't do anything unless the head pops above a certain level and even then they just allow the reins to remain effective so any pressure asks for downwards head movement.

If the bits "run through" her mouth try full cheek versions or get the rubber biscuits that go between the "rings" and the mouthpiece so that the bit doesn't get dragged through the mouth :)

If you do look for stronger bits don't go for gags - look for lever bits as they ask for the head to lower :) Make sure you have a thick/wide poll strap on the bridle though so you don't cause pain when the lever action is engaged :)
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Thank for the advice :) She has ringbone so lunging is a no go... a total pain as I think some work on the lunge especially in a pessoa or equiami would really benefit her! Because of her head carriage she is very hollow and in turn is building up the incorrect muscles. So as you can see this is like being stuck between a rock and a hard place lol

We have recently moved to a yard with 2 large all weather arenas which means over winter I can really concentrate on schooling her too now we have a good surface to work on, I am just trying to build her fitness before starting this so only going in the school to finish off her work after a hack. She bit she goes best in is her full cheek snaffle with copper peanut so I will give this a go with a running martingale and see how we get on! :)
 
If lunging is a no go, how about free schooling? Or maybe try and long rein her in the school? The long reining would be especially helpful as you use a bit with the reins and you can see if she is any better through transitions and slowing without a rider on board :)

Good luck with whatever you end up doing and remember patience and perseverance are key! :)
 
Kylara said:
If lunging is a no go, how about free schooling? Or maybe try and long rein her in the school? The long reining would be especially helpful as you use a bit with the reins and you can see if she is any better through transitions and slowing without a rider on board :)

Good luck with whatever you end up doing and remember patience and perseverance are key! :)
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Thank you :) fingers crossed the martingale will help, I think schooling properly again is going to be a big step too as she has mostly been hacked for the last couple years and although I try and school on hacks I think being in the school may benefit her a bit too
 
I haven't read a the replies, so someone else may have already made these suggestions.

PeeWee bit, I first got one after have been tanked off with by a Clydesdale at a *trot*. She had been scared by colts running behind a wall but I still needed to find something to stop it happening again. The side pieces help with steering and she won't be able to open her mouth round them. I lent the bit to a friend to teach her eventer steering and brakes and she found it very useful. I then used it successfully with an ID because she didn't like jointed bits.

NS Universal, I use it with my very strong Draft mare, she can lean on your hands but also sometimes has a high head-carriage. It needs 2 reins and a curb strap but she finds it very comfortable and responds well to it, far better than the Dutch gag that she came with.
 
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