Which is the lesser of 2 evils?

[Petmurf]

Background.

Day turnout = Currently approx 10 hours
Night turnout = Approx 12 hrs
Worked every week day for 40/60 mins and longer at weekends.

Pony needs a muzzle on, pony’s friends help said pony remove muzzle even though it’s on securely and under a fly mask I don’t know if this happens 10 mins after turn out or 10 hours, so is it better to turnout during the day when sugar levels are higher but for a shorter time scale, I could pop up at lunchtime and bring him in which would reduce turnout to 6 hours or turn him out over night, lower sugar levels and longer turnout but means more grass consumption?

WWYD?

 

[starbucker]

Can you try a different muzzle if its coming off? Our weight lady recommends and fits them

 

[Petmurf]

Can you try a different muzzle if its coming off? Our weight lady recommends and fits them

I’ve tried loads, have spent a fortune on them and settled on the dinky one with the head collar quite tight and a fly mask over it, sometimes it works and he comes back in with it but sometimes not

 

[HannahB]

Is it at all possible to strip graze? Otherwise I personally would turn out at night, so long as the stable isn't sweltering in the day

 

[starbucker]

Id also say night - they get longer out the sun, flies are less, and they tend to be out for longer and is logistically easier.. in for you if you get there on an evening, chuck out when ridden and do jobs without stressing about horse in the way

 

[Polos Mum]

I'd persist with trying to keep muzzle on - plat it into forelock. spray with hairspray so it tastes grim when 'friends' play with it.

Then night for me personally - they will spend some time asleep not eating, sugar less and I can't imagine standing in a stable aids weight loss - so as little of that as possible

 

[starbucker]

Then again if you go daytime you have the option of being able to bring in during the day to take the time down aswell, depends how desperately the need restricting and whether you want them in for 18 hours of the day.. Is there a bare lot you could use on site and put hay in?

 

[JenJ]

Have you tried flexible filly muzzles? They are a bit eye-wateringly expensive, but my two were more often than not getting rid of their other ones of various brands, but hardly ever do with the ff, and even then it's when the safety release on the headcollar has given way. They seem genuinely much happier in them.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

There is least amount of sugar in grass from 2am until around 10am when the storage/growth cycle starts again so if you could turn out really early and bring in by midday even if he gets the muzzle off he won’t be getting such a huge sugar hit.

I no longer use a muzzle as I’ve got a bare track but the livery horses in the next door field are all in flexible fillies 24/7. They rarely come off and the horses all seem very content wearing them even in this heat. If I had to use one again it would be my first choice.

 

[Petmurf]

Thank you for your replies.

I will keep with overnight turnout as we’re on a yard so the option of a track system or turning out really early isn’t really an option. I’ll just have to turn out as late as I can and I usually bring in by 6.30am at the latest.

I will also try the flexible filly as even though it’s expensive, it’s cheaper than vet costs for lami

 

[Polos Mum]

Hopefully we're through the worst of the spring grass flush and growth levels off a little until we get the September mini spike !

If he can get more exercise - great (sharer at weekends to be ridden twice a day?)
If he can get more aerobic exercise (assuming no underlying issues) - more trotting / cantering within the time you have

If more exercise is difficult then less calories in
When he's in for 10 hours in the day -
- can he have soaked hay
- can he have straw / tub of top chop zero or equivalent with no additives.

So not just less grass calories but less calories in total

 

[Petmurf]

Hopefully we're through the worst of the spring grass flush and growth levels off a little until we get the September mini spike !

If he can get more exercise - great (sharer at weekends to be ridden twice a day?)
If he can get more aerobic exercise (assuming no underlying issues) - more trotting / cantering within the time you have

If more exercise is difficult then less calories in
When he's in for 10 hours in the day -
- can he have soaked hay
- can he have straw / tub of top chop zero or equivalent with no additives.

So not just less grass calories but less calories in total

Sorry yes I should have said he’s on soaked hay carefully weighed and a tub of top chop zero.

Exercise isn’t difficult, I have the time in the evenings and weekends and he’s losing the weight, I just want some more off him and then to maintain that weight so we’re on the right track

 

[HopOnTrot]

Mine come in during the day most of the year as it’s just easier, that way they’re in for riding/vet/farrier etc

 

[94lunagem]

Mine live out but back when I was on livery yards I preferred out at night in summer. Just personal preference though rather than anything more scientific.

 

[Birker2020]

Reduce turnout area by strip grazing. Muzzle coming off can means the pony then gorges. I only know through trial and error over many years, only my horses issue was colic and that was why grass was restricted.

I like you, went through various muzzles. I also reduced turnout hours. Grazed overnight.

The only thing that was effective was strip grazing with electric fence. It's alright people saying that it's unfair for a horse to live in a postage stamp paddock, but sometimes it's the best thing you can do.

 

[Melandmary]

Out at night, even though it’s longer they don’t actually eat as much at night and also less sugar in the grass. This year I sectioned about half an acre off in April so they have stayed on that with really short grass and no muzzles at night time and are much happier for it. Both had ems and lami so might be possible for you to do that if you can manage your own grazing?

 

[Jambarissa]

I'm in a similar situation. Mine has grass/sugar sensitivity, have tried a muzzle but the blummin yearling will literally swing from it til it breaks.

My timing are very similar, I'm there at 8am and 6pm and have found that being out overnight and in during the day gave the greatest improvement in symptoms.

He has 3kg of soaked hay during the day and doesn't finish it because he mainly sleeps, which I suspect means he does stay awake all night eating!

Whilst it's improved his symptoms dramatically he is gaining weight (was ok weight at the beginning) but is now able to be exercised so I'm hoping that'll improve.

I've been reading up on many supplements that might help and have just a started Acetyl-L-Carnitine (bought human version, 1kg for £60, 10g per day), it's got great reviews from people saying it shifted cresty necks and fat pads.

 

[Goldenstar]

Atm mine are out at night in during the day .
It’s about half and half they are on a bare strip I hate it but they are both fat and it’s the best I can do atm.
I prefer out at night they are out the flys during the day.

 

[McGrools]

Plait the muzzle into his mane hair. Working a treat for one of mine.
Also I’ve found they are much happier in a bigger muzzle with plenty space for nostrils, they hate to feel their breathing is restricted xx

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Background.

Day turnout = Currently approx 10 hours
Night turnout = Approx 12 hrs
Worked every week day for 40/60 mins and longer at weekends.

Pony needs a muzzle on, pony’s friends help said pony remove muzzle even though it’s on securely and under a fly mask I don’t know if this happens 10 mins after turn out or 10 hours, so is it better to turnout during the day when sugar levels are higher but for a shorter time scale, I could pop up at lunchtime and bring him in which would reduce turnout to 6 hours or turn him out over night, lower sugar levels and longer turnout but means more grass consumption?

WWYD?

Day turnout and pop up lunchtime to bring in. I have three lami. one pony in small paddock strip grazed as wont wear muzzle, the other two out at 9 am in 2pm in the main field. one now in muzzle due to lami flareup as was box rested all last year. I would not do over night as this is what caused the initial lami condition.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

Having an ex laminitic and one with EMS I did a lot of grass research and this is the best simplified version I can find on the grass growth cycle and thought it might be useful to others who are struggling with fatties.

10am the grass cycle starts with the heating up of the sun and the grass storing energy (sugars) to grow.
4pm the grass starts the growth part of the cycle using up all the sugars it has stored during the day. This continues until the sun starts to go down at around 10pm
10pm to 2am it uses up all the remaining sugar it is has stored and growth slows and then stops.
2am to 10am there is the least amount of sugar in the grass and no growth takes place.

Obviously if it’s colder then there are other challenges with frosty grass releasing vast amounts of sugar once a thaw occurs but generally during the summer months it follows the pattern above so there really isn’t a safe time for a laminitic to be out at grass unless you want to get up at 2am.

I have a very sugar sensitive pony and tried all combinations and the only thing that has ever worked is no grass between April and October. The summer he was on grass, muzzled and in a lot of work he was as fat as could be. The next year out of work, no grass and slim. No grass has been a game changer for him as I seriously underestimated just how much he consumed even in a muzzle.

 

[JenJ]

Having an ex laminitic and one with EMS I did a lot of grass research and this is the best simplified version I can find on the grass growth cycle and thought it might be useful to others who are struggling with fatties.

10am the grass cycle starts with the heating up of the sun and the grass storing energy (sugars) to grow.
4pm the grass starts the growth part of the cycle using up all the sugars it has stored during the day. This continues until the sun starts to go down at around 10pm
10pm to 2am it uses up all the remaining sugar it is has stored and growth slows and then stops.
2am to 10am there is the least amount of sugar in the grass and no growth takes place.

Obviously if it’s colder then there are other challenges with frosty grass releasing vast amounts of sugar once a thaw occurs but generally during the summer months it follows the pattern above so there really isn’t a safe time for a laminitic to be out at grass unless you want to get up at 2am.

I have a very sugar sensitive pony and tried all combinations and the only thing that has ever worked is no grass between April and October. The summer he was on grass, muzzled and in a lot of work he was as fat as could be. The next year out of work, no grass and slim. No grass has been a game changer for him as I seriously underestimated just how much he consumed even in a muzzle.

How do you managed his turnout? Bare field and hay? Do you soak your hay before putting in field?

I'm another with EMS and lami ponies and despite doing everything I possibly can to manage it, it never feels like enough and is a constant worry

 

[HappyHollyDays]

How do you managed his turnout? Bare field and hay? Do you soak your hay before putting in field?

I'm another with EMS and lami ponies and despite doing everything I possibly can to manage it, it never feels like enough and is a constant worry

I have a track around just under an acre. It is bare earth for the most part with patches of course grass they don’t touch. They are out 24/7 and are fed a chaff and senior mash feed twice a day which has salt, oily herbs and spearmint. I don’t soak my meadow hay, I have a small self filling trough so not enough water to soak and rinse. I use large bales and they get 1/4 of a slice in the morning and probably half a slice between them at night. I don’t feed ad lib hay, they don’t need it and my Connie would just gorge himself. The only grass they get is when I bring them back across the hay fields to the yard for vet or farrier and I allow them to walk and chomp as a treat.