Whipping horses to get over jump?

Kokopelli

Kokopelli

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Just a ponder really.
I have just been watching videos of someone I know on youtube.

Her horse needs to be whipped (2 or 3 times) to get over anything above about 2ft9. He also has run outs at things smaller and just seems very under confident at jumping. If it was my horse I'd jump small and build his confidence (also young) but as she didn't ask for my advice I won't give it.

I think that perhaps if you need to whip this much then you need to re think what your doing. I probably wouldn't whip at all though as I have a better understanding of riders balance on approach to fences and I think whipping would throw the horse off balance.

So what are your views on whipping to get the horse over a fence?
 
I would only smack a horse if it was being naughty or silly - either to punish a refusal with one smack, or as encouragement going into a fence on a horse that was backing off and not listening to the leg. I think you can do this without unbalancing the horse or the rider but I'd prefer not to!

There's definitely a time and a place for it, but its not right if the horse is genuinely afraid, particularly if it is young. It will only make the problem worse in the long run and make the horse afraid of jumping, when you need them to enjoy it.

It sounds like there are lots of issues here that won't be solved by the whip!
 
If you need your whip to get a horse over a fence I think there may be some serious underlying problem.

I taught my horses to enjoy jumping by loose schooling them. One pony could only jump 2'6" according to his old owner (we found he had hoof problems) once he mended we ended up jumping over 4' together.
Another had been rapped by the dealers who sold him, he was terrified of jumping anything bigger than a 1' cross pole which he would clear by about 3' , I loose schooled him with the pony (they are friends) and he learnt not to be scared, and stopped clearing his fences by insane amounts.

I would never go for a whip if my mount stopped jumping, I would check the horses health and if all was fine physically I would look to my own riding.
 
I think I'm similar to you. He seems like a nice horse with lovely paces but has his head winched in as well. He's up for sale soon if he wasn't 16hh I would probably buy him as he look like he has a bit of potential but lacks confidence

Also depends on the refusal, if the horse was genuinely scared of the fence or I completely messed him up I wouldn't smack him but if I had one stop out of sheer naughtiness then a smack on the bum can be beneficial before the problem escalates.
I always carry a whip jumping but I've never used it once on my horse.
 
for punishment of refusing yes.
for encouragement to move off the leg (well i don't need it my horse is an airplane. but i wouldn't do it at approach to the jump. i'd do it at least 5 strides away.)
 
xspiralx said:
I would only smack a horse if it was being naughty or silly - either to punish a refusal with one smack, or as encouragement going into a fence on a horse that was backing off and not listening to the leg. I think you can do this without unbalancing the horse or the rider but I'd prefer not to!

There's definitely a time and a place for it, but its not right if the horse is genuinely afraid, particularly if it is young. It will only make the problem worse in the long run and make the horse afraid of jumping, when you need them to enjoy it.

It sounds like there are lots of issues here that won't be solved by the whip!
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This.
Took the words right out of my mouth :)
 
Like anything with horses, we know that to a greater or lesser extent that they can all jump, given the choice how high and how often would an individual horse jump.

We tend to fall into the trap of buying a horse which may come from a jumping yard from jumping parents and assume that therefore this is a jumping horse.

The individual horse however may have different ideas.

Like any athletic sport, its the early training which gives the confidence to enjoy and succeed. However, I believe that many horses given a label are expected to perform without a proper foundation then straight into the sport.

The anthropormorphic attitude of many riders who refer to horses as being naughty or lazy or many other human traits are totally misguided, and this is then compounded by using a whip to get the desired result.

Like any form of horse training the secret is finding the key to unlock the potential of that particular horse, and to put in the correct foundation and confidence building required.

Obviously any health issues should be identified and dealt with before any sort of sport training is started.

Punishment is a concept which I do not see as helpful in any form of training.
 
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See this is where I am going to disagree with some posters - I am sick of seeing people 'punish' their horses for refusing fences when it is blatantly obvious that it was going to happen and 9 times out of 10 the rider is the one at fault / causing the refusal!

I am not saying I have never done it - god knows I have but now I think "why?" and feel quite stupid. Maybe it's just a case of learning as you get older as i rarely hit mine with a whip now - sometimes I will use it as an aid - ie a tap behind the leg when approaching a fence if i think he is spooking at something and not 100% concentrating on the job. That is an aid only though if he is not listening to my leg.

A horse should not need to be whacked round a course - that's ridiculous, these people need to learn to ride, need to learn about how to present a horse at a fence and how to sit and use their legs.

I was at a BS(JA) show at the weekend and the shocking state of some riders and their overuse of the whip if the horse 'misbehaved' was quite appalling - i think someone needs to show some people WHY the horse is not going to jump off the most ridiculous stride it has been set up on.

oh and another one we saw was a guy with a stupidly over-tight standing martingale so his poor horse could not stretch its neck and bascule over the fence, instead it cat-leaped everything. do people honestly NOT realise what problems their badly-fitted gadgets causing??!

aaand breathe....... sorry rant over and apologies for going off topic! hehe
 
But if the horse stopped because he was genuinely being naughty would you give him a tap? I had horse that would test me, at 16hh it was very easy for him. I only ever hit him twice for refusing all the other times I knew it was my fault.

I was quite surprised to see a biggish name rider yesterday smack the horse repeatedly for refusing, sadly I think it has become the norm.
 
If it's an affiliated show or event and you see abuse of the whip then report it to the Steward, there are clearly defined rules about what is and what s not allowed and certainly fence judges eventing are given clear instructions as to what the riders are allowed to do with their whips. If it's unaffiliated there's a fair bet that the organisers will have included a rule about abuse of the horse and so report the rider to the organisers just the same.

Don't do what I had to stop my husband from doing at one of the first shows he went to with me which was to jump into the ring and threaten to pull the obnoxious child from the horse and use her whip on her!
 
Kokopelli said:
But if the horse stopped because he was genuinely being naughty would you give him a tap? I had horse that would test me, at 16hh it was very easy for him. I only ever hit him twice for refusing all the other times I knew it was my fault.

I was quite surprised to see a biggish name rider yesterday smack the horse repeatedly for refusing, sadly I think it has become the norm.
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Personally I wouldn't. I'd take the horse away from the offending obstacle, do transitions and movements then take the horse back to the fence and 99% of the time the horse will co-operate and jump, obviously not an option at a show but I have seen/ridden horses that have become so sour from whip use. Also many people after using the whip coming into a fence jab their horse in the gob on landing, double the punishment and the horses end up far more reluctant to jump in the future.

The jumping tip I live by is "let the fence come to you" an old boy taught me this as a child, I only ever had one lesson from him but it was the best lesson I've ever had.
 
jemima_too said:
If it's an affiliated show or event and you see abuse of the whip then report it to the Steward, there are clearly defined rules about what is and what s not allowed and certainly fence judges eventing are given clear instructions as to what the riders are allowed to do with their whips. If it's unaffiliated there's a fair bet that the organisers will have included a rule about abuse of the horse and so report the rider to the organisers just the same.

Don't do what I had to stop my husband from doing at one of the first shows he went to with me which was to jump into the ring and threaten to pull the obnoxious child from the horse and use her whip on her!
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The amount of times I have seen this! I was fence judging once at a mini triathlon and I reported one girl to the secretary, they were thrown off the show ground (after lots of abuse from them) and aren't allowed back to any events run by our pony club.

This is the only time I've seen action taken against people like this.
 
See, hitting a horse following a refusal can be completely fine depending on the circumstances/ horse IMO. Not beating the ***** out of it, but punishment can be needed... For 23/24 hours a day, our horses are adored, pampered and kept in a very nice manner. So for the 1 hour we ask them to work (as long as they aren't in pain, etc.) I believe they ought to do so. If you present at a fence (within the horse's confidence and scope) well and the horse refuses- yes, I'd smack it. If I rode badly, I wouldn't...

Hitting youngsters though is fairly poor show- like smacking a toddler for falling over.
 
ladyt25 said:
See this is where I am going to disagree with some posters - I am sick of seeing people 'punish' their horses for refusing fences when it is blatantly obvious that it was going to happen and 9 times out of 10 the rider is the one at fault / causing the refusal!

I am not saying I have never done it - god knows I have but now I think "why?" and feel quite stupid. Maybe it's just a case of learning as you get older as i rarely hit mine with a whip now - sometimes I will use it as an aid - ie a tap behind the leg when approaching a fence if i think he is spooking at something and not 100% concentrating on the job. That is an aid only though if he is not listening to my leg.

A horse should not need to be whacked round a course - that's ridiculous, these people need to learn to ride, need to learn about how to present a horse at a fence and how to sit and use their legs.

I was at a BS(JA) show at the weekend and the shocking state of some riders and their overuse of the whip if the horse 'misbehaved' was quite appalling - i think someone needs to show some people WHY the horse is not going to jump off the most ridiculous stride it has been set up on.

oh and another one we saw was a guy with a stupidly over-tight standing martingale so his poor horse could not stretch its neck and bascule over the fence, instead it cat-leaped everything. do people honestly NOT realise what problems their badly-fitted gadgets causing??!

aaand breathe....... sorry rant over and apologies for going off topic! hehe
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I can see your ponit very clearly, i feel tho that if you help your horse around the course 90% of the time ( getting him on the spot) Then if you muck up your stride he should help you out a bit, thats what i expect from my horses anyway and i know its what a lot of people expect therefore if your horse stops because you missed the spot then they should get a smack. Bsja shows are too competitive nowadays as i have seen for myself being one of the competitors, some people really do let winning get in the way of riding and i agree it does look awful, some people do need to check there techniques but the smacking i would allow only with the reason i have said :)
 
Kokopelli said:
But if the horse stopped because he was genuinely being naughty would you give him a tap? I had horse that would test me, at 16hh it was very easy for him. I only ever hit him twice for refusing all the other times I knew it was my fault.

I was quite surprised to see a biggish name rider yesterday smack the horse repeatedly for refusing, sadly I think it has become the norm.
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I freely admit i have in the past but now, the more I have learned the more I think that is wrong as I would question "is the horse being 'naughty'? Can a horse be naughty? I am not sure. I would look at what I as a rider was doing wrong first.

Believe me I have gone through this with my horse and I have smacked him for being a sod (last time was a couple of years ago) and yes it did help BUT i don't know if the smack helped or whether cos he worked me up i just rode more confidently and postively! i felt terrible about it after and questioned why i had done it as I think, had I ridden with purpose first of all it wouldn't have happened. I have been through a lot with my horse - once would jump anything then he started refusing. I lost confidence in him and he'd never refused before (the refusing started as he had injured his back).

I am now jumping him for fun only (he's 20 now), he will still spook and stop occasionally (he's always been very spooky) but I won't hit him for it as I know I was the one who was already thinking he was going to have an issue with said fence so it is actually MY fault not his.

the cases I saw at the weekend were flapping, kicking, whipping riders who didn't help their horses one bit and wondered why the horse stopped. Some horses do put up with it but an unconfident horse will not and what do they get in return? More smacking!
 
I see your point and as I said i have done it but some horses just lack the confidence to help you out and maybe jumping just isn't their thing either. I know if i am in a very positive frame of mind my horse jumps fine. If i am feeling a little unsure he won't! He used to, he used to help me loads when he was naive youngster, he'd jump anything but somewhere along the line it went wrong and knocked his confidence. Funnily enough though it is only showjumping - eventing (and eventing sjing) we are fine! That's how i know it's me - i get nervous doing BSJA type stuff now - no idea why - and he just must pick up on that.
 
jemima_too said:
If it's an affiliated show or event and you see abuse of the whip then report it to the Steward, there are clearly defined rules about what is and what s not allowed and certainly fence judges eventing are given clear instructions as to what the riders are allowed to do with their whips. If it's unaffiliated there's a fair bet that the organisers will have included a rule about abuse of the horse and so report the rider to the organisers just the same.

Don't do what I had to stop my husband from doing at one of the first shows he went to with me which was to jump into the ring and threaten to pull the obnoxious child from the horse and use her whip on her!
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Unfortunately it's not abuse per se but just pure pointlessness really. I am no jumping professional by any stretch of the imagination but I can see when a horse is coming to a fence and the rider 'drops it'/stops riding and hence horse refuses, can see it coming several strides in yet the rider then feels it is appropriate to hit the horse for being 'naughty'! I just feel like saying "no, you numpty, it's your bad riding causing the horse to refuse - whipping it will do nothing!". Some very genuine horses will still take the fence on but maybe these horses were once genuinebut it's got to the stage where they have a bit more of sense of self preseverance and it's easier to stop!
 
I think I'm lucky to have one of those genuine horses who will jump no matter what the numpty on top is doing. :p

I do wonder though, people say horses don't feel the whip the same way that we do as they have a higher pain threshold but I do wonder this because of the way they are so sensitive to thing like flies. Would they not feel the whip very well due to their sensitivity?
 
Kokopelli said:
I think I'm lucky to have one of those genuine horses who will jump no matter what the numpty on top is doing. :p

I do wonder though, people say horses don't feel the whip the same way that we do as they have a higher pain threshold but I do wonder this because of the way they are so sensitive to thing like flies. Would they not feel the whip very well due to their sensitivity?
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Of course horses feel pain, just like anything else. If they screamed every time they got hit people would behave and not do it.

A horse is about the only pet you could buy a child, and a stick to hit it with.
 
I will tap down the shoulder before the fence if he is ignoring all my other requests to not run out that way but he is still learning so I dont punish him and it is only a little tap to regain his focus on what I am asking rather than running away from the killer fence. I am lucky in that he is not a stopper and does give plenty of warning when he is going to do anything other than jump so if he does run out then he gets a firm no and represented. On the subject of biulding confidence, he has only just gained his confidence jumping, when introducing bigger fences I put them at the end of a grid so that everything is already sorted for him and if he messes up he gets plenty of reassurance and presented again untill he is doing it happily. It has worked for him in getting him happier about jumping in general and he is now more willing to give something scarey a go so the odd tap obviously hasnt affected him badly.
But I hate to see riders that beat the horse for stopping when they have stopped riding it several strides out and it was obvious to everyone else that it was going to stop, recently a girl had a pony that refused a jump but she had stoped riding about 5 strides out and the pony just ground to a halt, she then represented and did exactly the same but with lots more kicking and hitting. She did this several times and got eliminated, her sister then got on the pony and it jumped fine as the sister rode it all the way to the fence no flapping or hiting just leg on and a contact. :rolleyes:
 
team barney said:
If you need your whip to get a horse over a fence I think there may be some serious underlying problem.
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Yes this was my first thought. When my 200% reliable horse suddenly started doing wild run outs and stops, I got an instructor in. He moaned and moaned that it was me, then he got on, couldn't make it jump either.

We ended the lesson with him making me basically beat the horse into the fence. His words were "it's ok you're steering ok and using enough leg, you just need to go into every fence hitting its backside". In actual fact my saddle was excruciatingly tight, clear white tree shaped marks appeared a matter of weeks later.

I had been jumping on hard ground too.

It's been hard forgiving myself for that and restoring horse's and my confidence has been a long slog so we have paid dearly for it. In my case well deserved, in his not.

I now only ever use my stick if it's BIG and if he starts skedaddling about in front of it then jumps we could be in serious trouble. I don't wallop him as hard as I can but do give him a good crack, more to reinforce to him "yes, I really want us to do this". But it's not needed often, and only when I'm so wibbly I know my riding alone may not make things quite clear.

I never smack after a refusal as they are always my fault.
 
AndySpooner said:
Of course horses feel pain, just like anything else. If they screamed every time they got hit people would behave and not do it.

A horse is about the only pet you could buy a child, and a stick to hit it with.
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Horses are very big animals that communicate with each other in a very physical way. Have you ever seen horses in the field? If they want to make a point they will kick and bite - a damn sight harder than a smack with a crop :rolleyes:

There is a difference between sensitivity and pain - they have thick skin - unless someone really puts their strength into it, I doubt a smack with a whip even really causes a horse pain other than giving them a bit of a shock and a momentary sting.

I'm not a horse beater - very far from it, as I virtually never need to use a whip - but there is definitely a time and a place for it. Giving a horse a well timed smack when they are misbehaving does not a horse abuser make :rolleyes:
 
I think that one thing Andy is trying to suggest is that horses don't think in the same way we do, so how do we decide when they are being "naughty" and that they need a "smack"? Is a horse being naughty because it doesn't want to go over a jump? Do we have the right to basically beat them to force them to do that?
Anyway, children are sometimes naughty, they do understand the concept, and we don't belt them with crops.
Just late-night ramblings really, but I must admit I cringe when people say that their horse is just "being naughty", "misbehaving" or "taking the piss". It seems to be used as a justification to treat them in a way that we wouldn't treat any other of our pet animals. All the horse is doing is not doing exactly what we want it to, and therefore it is somehow OK to resort to physical force to make them do it. Hmmm...
Of course horses do make physical contact with each other sometimes, but for very different reasons to the reasons that we humans justify our smacks, belts and hitting. I don't know if a horse that is getting a couple of good wallops from a crop will really understand why in the same way that a horse being moved off a hay pile would.
I think the level of abuse allowed in competitions, and the areas surrounding the arenas, is unacceptable. I was at Felbridge a while back when a pony kept refusing. The mother of the child in question was beside herself. Dragged the pony out of the arena, gave him a good hiding on the rump with the crop, leapt on him herself and basically belted him around the practise area. None of the officials did a thing.
People don't even understand what they are doing a lot of the time. The poor pony wouldn't have even understood why it was being belted by then (if it could ever have understood). All it knew was that it got a good hiding, then leapt on and beaten round a course of jumps. You have to wonder why it was refusing to jump in the first place...
 
Tinypony said:
I think that one thing Andy is trying to suggest is that horses don't think in the same way we do, so how do we decide when they are being "naughty" and that they need a "smack"? Is a horse being naughty because it doesn't want to go over a jump? Do we have the right to basically beat them to force them to do that?
Anyway, children are sometimes naughty, they do understand the concept, and we don't belt them with crops.
Just late-night ramblings really, but I must admit I cringe when people say that their horse is just "being naughty",y "misbehaving" or "taking the piss". It seems to be used as a justification to treat them in a way that we wouldn't treat any other of our pet animals. All the horse is doing is not doing exactly what we want it to, and therefore it is somehow OK to resort to physical force to make them do it. Hmmm...
Of course horses do make physical contact with each other sometimes, but for very different reasons to the reasons that we humans justify our smacks, belts and hitting. I don't know if a horse that is getting a couple of good wallops from a crop will really understand why in the same way that a horse being moved off a hay pile would.
I think the level of abuse allowed in competitions, and the areas surrounding the arenas, is unacceptable. I was at Felbridge a while back when a pony kept refusing. The mother of the child in question was beside herself. Dragged the pony out of the arena, gave him a good hiding on the rump with the crop, leapt on him herself and basically belted him around the practise area. None of the officials did a thing.
People don't even understand what they are doing a lot of the time. The poor pony wouldn't have even understood why it was being belted by then (if it could ever have understood). All it knew was that it got a good hiding, then leapt on and beaten round a course of jumps. You have to wonder why it was refusing to jump in the first place...
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You have put this far better than I.

Obviously, attempting to justify using a crop on horses when they fail to perform in a sporting scenario is quite different to horses interacting in the field. When they interact its done in phases before the bit or kick. The crop on the other hand is s massive phase out of the blue.

To then endow the horse with human type emotions such as naughtiness is ridiculous.
 
If its a young horse then whipping it over fences is just gonna make the poor thing associate any jumps with being hurt. i was helping my friend with introducing her youngster to jumps not so long ago, we started tiny then we gradually built up but we only jumped on sunday, saturday and during the week she did schooling so the horse found jumping as something different and fun and rare! now she jumps 2ft6 and puts her ears right up when she sees a jump, when she comes up to the jump she's very bouncy and happy then just hops over the jump and comes again as many times as we let her. we also showed her the jump before we jumped it. i don't even carry a whip when im jumping my mare as she get way over excited and pulls me towards the jump, certainly dont need to make her go any faster! she needs constant reminding that she'll only jump it if shes calm so i pretty much have the opposite situation to your friend, my horse wants to jump too much and i actualy have to stop her before the jump untill she calms down. sorry long reply :/
 
Rarely have I smacked a horse for refusing or running out. Mostly because I believe horses are rarely ever 'naughty'. They always have a good reason for their behaviour, whether we agree with it is a different matter.

I'd say the vast majority of refusals are due to lack of confidence, either in the jump (scary horse_eating jump) or in their own ability to jump it (lack of practise, general lack of confidence, fear of pain). Hitting the horse because it's nervous acheives nothing beneficial at all. In those cases the only reason they will then jump is they are more scared of you and your punishment than the jump:-(

There are of course times when the horse's reason for not jumping (as sensible as it seems to them) is unreasonable: some are genuinely lazy and will attempt to do as little work as possible, and there are times I would expect them to be generous and do as they are told. The occasions when the horse has not bothered to make an effort to try (an easily jumped small fence presented on a slightly wrong stride say) would get a smack.
 
You Wont Forget Me said:
I can see your ponit very clearly, i feel tho that if you help your horse around the course 90% of the time ( getting him on the spot) Then if you muck up your stride he should help you out a bit, thats what i expect from my horses anyway and i know its what a lot of people expect therefore if your horse stops because you missed the spot then they should get a smack.
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The best horse I ever owned - and he was the top SJ in Australia in his day - treated ANY attempt to interfere with HIS stride as totally unforgiveable and an excuse to throw in the dirtiest stop in all creation! It was a case of 'you know so much, YOU jump it - alone!':D

If he got himself into trouble, he got himself out! And if you'd hit him - just once - he'd put you on the floor!

It drives me barmy to see fairly incompetent riders madly hooking and kicking in an attempt to make a horse take off - or not! I was always taught, 'the last 3 strides belong to the horse - leave him alone!'

And if a horse can't work out for himself where to take off - particularly over pi**ing little 3 foot courses - then maybe jumping isn't his thing!
 
^^ This

Because I'm not the most confident jumper.
The mare I share knows her stuff.

My theory is that it is my job to point her at the correct fence and ensure that the approach is as good as possible with a good balance pace.
I only look for a stride so I can anticipate where she will probably take off, and so that I can try my best to follow her movement in as balanced a position as possible.
 
Tinypony said:
I think that one thing Andy is trying to suggest is that horses don't think in the same way we do, so how do we decide when they are being "naughty" and that they need a "smack"? Is a horse being naughty because it doesn't want to go over a jump? Do we have the right to basically beat them to force them to do that?
Anyway, children are sometimes naughty, they do understand the concept, and we don't belt them with crops.
Just late-night ramblings really, but I must admit I cringe when people say that their horse is just "being naughty", "misbehaving" or "taking the piss". It seems to be used as a justification to treat them in a way that we wouldn't treat any other of our pet animals. All the horse is doing is not doing exactly what we want it to, and therefore it is somehow OK to resort to physical force to make them do it. Hmmm...
Of course horses do make physical contact with each other sometimes, but for very different reasons to the reasons that we humans justify our smacks, belts and hitting. I don't know if a horse that is getting a couple of good wallops from a crop will really understand why in the same way that a horse being moved off a hay pile would.
I think the level of abuse allowed in competitions, and the areas surrounding the arenas, is unacceptable. I was at Felbridge a while back when a pony kept refusing. The mother of the child in question was beside herself. Dragged the pony out of the arena, gave him a good hiding on the rump with the crop, leapt on him herself and basically belted him around the practise area. None of the officials did a thing.
People don't even understand what they are doing a lot of the time. The poor pony wouldn't have even understood why it was being belted by then (if it could ever have understood). All it knew was that it got a good hiding, then leapt on and beaten round a course of jumps. You have to wonder why it was refusing to jump in the first place...
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Tinypony do you jump yourself?
 
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