Whipping of horses

Paint it Lucky

Paint it Lucky

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I went to a local unaffiliated show today at which there were some jumping classes. There were some lovely riders and horses/ponies and some not so amazing ones but at least they tried and had fun. And there were other people who weren't so nice to watch. What really surprised me was one rider whose horse refused a jump twice and was furiously whipped on both occassions, so when approaching the third time, with the rider hitting it constantly, the horse decided it would rather awkwardly try to clear the fence and jumped it, and then to my amazement the crowd watching applauded!

I was shocked because there is no way I would applaud this kind of riding, surely horses hould not be forced to go over fences at any cost?! I'm sure some people would disagree with me but it disgusts me when I see things like this, at the end of the day if a horse does not want to jump surely it should not be forced to (sorry am starting a bit of an ethical debate here!) they are not machines and they feel pain, so how can beating them in this way be anything other than wrong!?
 
if the horse was young, it needs to learn that it is not alowd to stop at the fence, and if it is older then it needs to be told off for stopping! the horse may have a record of stopping and this person may have been trying to retrain the horse.
also the horse may have been backing off and the person could have been making it go forwards (but i wasnt there so i dont know
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but if excessive force is used then it should not have been applauded!

did the person pat the horse after getting over the fence?
 
well I have whipped my horse going into fences... as he has a tendancy to run around them at the last minute, thus equally rider often falling on jump... v dangerous, in fact once when he did it rider knocked themselbes out.
 
I expected a reply like this!
In my oppinion the force was excessive, but my real point is, is any force ethically right? If a child didn't want to jump a hurdle would we beat them? No. Yet people think nothing off hitting horses as 'they need to learn,' but if a horse stops it's for a reason, be it pain, fear, overfaced, a bad stride/approach, then surely it should not be punished but given the benefit of the doubt. And I know sometimes they stop for no reason other than they simply don't want to jump but if this is the case what gives us the right to force them to?
 
Depends on how you define a "force".

Once you compare an animal to a child you lose merit in your argument. A horse is a lot stronger than a human, is it ethical for them to use force? ;~)
 
well if you think it was excessive that is your opinion! but its only a tickle isnt it!! if somebody hit us then it could hurt us but the horse has extra skin/coat so like they wont feel it so bad!
 
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if a horse stops it's for a reason, be it pain, fear, overfaced, a bad stride/approach, then surely it should not be punished but given the benefit of the doubt.

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if the horse is is pain, fear or overfaced , then yes, its wrong to use excessive force. but a horse should learn to sort itself out when on a wrong stride, as it has to learn to think for itself and this is learnt by punishing for mistakes and rewarding the progress! lol
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I like a good debate!
 
Oh you bunny hugger!

Hoses are like children - they learn bad habits.
Shame people don't wallop their children more, maybe we wouldn't have so many disrespectful brats in the world.
 
If a horse is being deliberately disobedient then I suppose there are some specific circumstances when use of a whip would be appropriate. However, I think one short slap with the whip is enough, not a fury of beatings. You essentially give the horse one smack and then give it the opportunity to rectify it's behaviour. Ferociously beating a horse says more about the mentally of the rider IMO and displays the fact that the rider is taking out their frustration on the horse, rather than purely trying to correct it's behaviour.

I would not use a whip if for one second I thought my horse was napping/stopping out of pain or fear or just not enjoying the job.
 
A beating is not on, but one smack is IMO justified although I would tend towards not if the horse is young. I only use my stick if I know there isn't a reason for stopping. I do not ask my horses to jump when they can't (e.g if I bury them) as this is dangerous. But I expect them to jump off a long or a short stride if necessary.
Wonder where this debate stemmed from....
 
Thats the thing I like about my horse, no need to whip her into a fence, she just does it. Which is really nice and means she always has a posiive experience when jumping.
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However if she did stop, then mummy would give her one smack to say its naughty.
Sounds like the rider lost their temper and smacked for the sake of it...not good!!!
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I agree TripleSandH, I don't have a problem with a few taps (although prehaps I should), I just know that I personally feel bad if I hit a horse (especially if it does not respond, which makes me think there must be a reason for this), and wondered if anyone else feels there is something fundamentally bad about the use of whips in punishment? Or am I just being too moral for my own good?
 
I think you're just being too moral! A horse has to know it's not good or how will they lean? I have spent years praising good jumping from the pone, but he will get a smack when he throws the towel in, otherwise he takes the mickey.
 
Whips should never be used in temper and they have no useful effect at all (on the horse) if used thus. I am not averse to three (max) slaps behind the leg in times of need, but they have to be delivered in time to make any sense to the horse. BSJA rules now forbid use of the whip before starting the round and any more than a couple of smacks en route I think. Stewards need to be firm and deal with any abuse promptly and harshly in my opinion.
 
I think it depends entirely on the reason the horse stopped. If it was naughty or just plain disobedient, then I wouldn't think twice about giving a wallop as a telling off, and another reminder going into the fence again. I'd never hit hard enough to leave a mark, just enough to make my point felt.

I would never hit a horse who stopped out of fear or if it was a very sensitive horse - it entirely depends on the individual horse you're riding IMO.

Excessive beating is not on, and I didn't see the case you're referring to so I can't tell you if it was necessary or not. However I'm definitely not against hitting a horse for naughtiness. Its important to remember that horses are very big, very strong animals, and if they deliberately disobey you without any consequence, they'll learn they can just walk all over you which can end in disaster for horse and rider.
 
surely whipping a horse even before it jumps is punishing it for jumpiong hence horse doeasnt jump-im sorry but i agree with original poster-if a horse is constanlty refusing go back to your ground work-and if that doesnt work i suggest the poor horse should have a different career and the rider gets themselves something more suited to them. a whip on the bum for a second refusal is my limit. there is always a reason if a horse wont jump and i wish people would think about why before whipping the hell out of the horse-especially spoilt brats whos 'mummy' also beats the horse-sorry, been to a show today and witnessed the same thing.
 


but a horse should learn to sort itself out when on a wrong stride, as it has to learn to think for itself and this is learnt by punishing for mistakes and rewarding the progress! lol
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punished for mistakes????????????!!! god forbid you ever get punished for every mistake you make
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I am not ashamed to say that my horse got several smacks today. She got two hard ones when she reared at a shopping trolley. Rearing is very dangerous and she went higher than shes gone before. she got a smack and a yank in the mouth, the smack made her jump as a reaction which i was pleased about as it meant i had got through to her. She also got some encouraging taps to go into water and to go past things she was spooking at.

She once stopped at a jump with me for about the 5th time in a row, she got a spank, jumped it from standstill (only about 2ft3) and didn't refuse at that jump again. I think that was worthwhile.

I now sound like i smack my horse all the time but i honestly don't!! She gets lots of praise when she does something good and is probably one of the most loved and pampered animals in this world, i love her to pieces even though she is sometimes naughty.

I don't know about the incident you saw today as i didn't see it so can't really comment on that.
 
ive reminded my pony with a stick on a few occasions but it is generally only a tap on the shoulder or if he is really backing off a little tasp just behind my leg-but actually whipping into the fence is totally wrong, whatever the reason.
bean_xx your right rearing is dangerous so i think anything that involves immediate danger should result in a sharp warning!!
 
Bex7 I agree, fair enough using a whip with little taps to increase impulsion but this was definate walloping, whip upside down as hard as rider could manage. Sorry to dwell on this one incident, it's not the only time I've seen it though and it really upsets me when I do.

I agree that if a horses behaviour could endanger you, ie. being silly in traffic, then you may have to use the whip quite hard to get its attention and avoid possible injury.
 
I guess it depends what it means to the horse, and how it's normally used, i.e., is it used in punishment when they do something bad (which is really just the rider getting cross), or is it used to drive them forwards, encourage them to turn where you want them to (which is a back up to the aids). Two very different things really.
 
Sometimes people can just take things too far, i mean you do need to help a horse learn by doing certain things but 'beating' a horse into something is not right ( i use the term 'beating' loosely, as i was not present, not able to judge fully) but it does sound like they went ott, maybe a lack of training at home made the horse that way
 
in my opinion, a plain naughty horse may deserve a smack (not many smacks, i think just one hit and a verbal telling off is plenty). However, a horse who is frightened or is overfenced should not be smacked. A verbal telling off should be applied the first time and the horse should be taken back a step in terms of the size/technicality of the jump he is being asked to jump. I thought the whole idea was to try to gain the horses confidence when jumping and i feel that whipping is NOT the way forward. A tap on the shoulder to remind the horse to jump/not to run out/etc would be fine but a series of smacks with the whips is just uncalled for. I too have witnessed a woman repeatedly whipping a horse that refused twice and i have to say that a lot of the time a horse refuses, it is the fault of the rider, so maybe some whip-happy people out there need to reassess their riding skills and not blame the horse for every problem. I think the horse should be given the benefit of the doubt the first time and given a verbal telling off, a smack the next time if the horse still refuses. I just think a beating is completely uncalled for.
Isnt a whip meant to be an extension of our aids?
 
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