Whisting/roaring - can anyone tell me about it?

[chestnut cob]

Anything at all would be helpful.

How is it diagnosed? Can it improve with time, or will it always be there and possibly get worse?

Is it possible for a horse to have a wind "issue" without it being whistling/roaring?

 

[Lucy_Ally]

Whistling and roaring are terms for noise emitted from the larynx during breathing, they are due to a collapse of the vocal chords into the airway and rattle as air passes by them (laryngeal hemiplegia). They are diagnosed using an endoscope and can be treated via surgery to either remove the vocal chord that is the problem (Hob-day) or suture them out of the way (Tie-Back). Horses can make respiratory noise from dorsal displacement of the soft palate (usually a gurgling or snoring noise) or may wheeze like an ashmatic if they have COPD. Horses with mild laryngeal collapse will not make much noise.
Realistically unless your horse is racing or an advanced eventer collapse of only one side of the larynx (usually left due to an anatomical quirk of the horse) will not impinge significantly on the exercise performance.

Hope this helps

I can provide you th endoscope pictures if it helps!

Edit to say: It may well get worse over time, it is unlikely to improve on its own. Laryngeal hemiplegia is caused by damage to the nerves that supply the muscles of the larynx which atrophy, thus they are unable to hold the vocal chords out of the way.

 

[chestnut cob]

Thanks, v helpful.

So expecting a horse with a mild form to work at RC level shouldn't cause too many problems? Just when you get to high levels?

Am I right in thinking it would show up mostly during very fast, hard work (such as racing as you've said, and maybe hunting, that sort, rather than dressage?)?

 

[Lucy_Ally]

Most RC horses work at a relatively low level so it would not effect them unless there was a significant collapse (but the horse would then stop dead during exercise as they would be unable to breath). It will be worst at high intensity exercise but excessive poll flexion also narrows the airways so any compramise in the airflow can be magnified, hence some dressage horses do suffer with airway complaints.

Everything ok with Rhyn?

 

[Peanot]

YO once bred a foal that at the age of 5 when they were selling him, they found that he had a wind problem and so sold him cheaply. The man who bought him, had the operation to tie back and Carl Hester started to ride him not long after, so it worked with that horse.
When they were riding him, he would make a slight noise, but as he was only young, they didn`t do a lot with him, but it was when he was vetted that it came to light, the extent of it.
I hope this has helped.

 

[GTs]

I also think it depends on how severe they are - I had one who had the police called on her as she sounded like a freight train. Infact it was so loud she would scare herself with her own breathing. She could work with it, however surgery was the right thing to do in this case.

 

[malibu211211]

My boy used to make a noise in faster work, he got worse and had to be hobdayed. He does faster work and riding club activities, he just sounds like a very heavy breather

It does take him a few minates to recover after a good gallop but half the time thats because he gets himself so worked up

I certainly would have another horse that has been hobdayed

 

[dieseldog]

There is evidence to suggest that it is genetic and degenerative. If you are thinking of buying a horse that makes a noise get it cheap as you may not be able to sell it, unless you find someone as open minded as you. I was looking at a horse that had been hobdayed, but after doing some research on the internet I wouldn't buy one.

 

[GTs]

Not sure your comments DieselDog - currently there is uncertainty about it being genetic, as not sure how paralysis can be degenerative, once it's paralyzed it really can't move any less.

 

[dieseldog]

it gets worse, I googled hobday and those were the articles that came up. They also said that hobdays weren't that successful and you should probably go for the tie back. I was only looking at it from buying a horse with a hobday point of view and it put me off.

 

[vicijp]

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure your comments DieselDog - currently there is uncertainty about it being genetic, as not sure how paralysis can be degenerative, once it's paralyzed it really can't move any less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Partial paralysis is the term most commonly used. These conditions do get worse, a lot of horse's have to have their wind ops redone as they 'grow out' with more work. I know a horse which has had 3 tye - backs.
Hobday's arent really done alone nowadays, but are usually done to support a tye - back because they may as well 'seeing as they are there'. However, with a tye - forward there is no need for a hobday, and as there is no open wound it cuts the recovery period in half.
As to buying a horse that has been hobdayed, wouldnt put me off in the slightest as long as its not for racing. In racing wind ops are done willy nilly in the hope they will turn a bad horse into a good horse - they dont.
I have known some right rotten winded horses go on and do well out of racing. Have also known a lot of rotten winded horses pass full vettings, for racing and otherwise. The wind tests vets carry out are worthless, you need a good 12 furlong + gallop to find a horses wind out. I cant think of a horse I have known with a wind op that would fail a vetting, and i have known hundreds.
Basically my opinion is that unless you are buying a horse for racing, wind doesnt matter in the slightest. A vet wouldnt pick anything up in a vetting. If it does worry you, get it scoped and see exactly what is down there.

 

[Lucy_Ally]

Bumped for Fan_Mail....

 

[Rusty_GSY]

I have a 15 year old Irish cob.... recently started "roaring"..... mines simple, stick it on the lounge for 10 to 15 minutes and you can hear it from the edge of the sandschool. you can also just slightly hear the "roar" when hacking, stick her on a track to canter and bang there it is clear as day.

some dont need a long run to hear it, others do. my vets only question was how much competing i was planning on doing in the next three years.

its common in thoroughbreds and dutch warmbloods, and mine just had to be awkward!

 

[JanetGeorge]

I have known some right rotten winded horses go on and do well out of racing. Have also known a lot of rotten winded horses pass full vettings, for racing and otherwise. The wind tests vets carry out are worthless, you need a good 12 furlong + gallop to find a horses wind out. I cant think of a horse I have known with a wind op that would fail a vetting, and i have known hundreds.
Basically my opinion is that unless you are buying a horse for racing, wind doesnt matter in the slightest. A vet wouldnt pick anything up in a vetting. If it does worry you, get it scoped and see exactly what is down there.

Heavens - you must have known some odd ones! I've had two roarers - both 'rescue' ex-racehorses - and neither would have passed the vet - you could hear them coming from 100 yards away in an easy canter! Although I did have one woman try one of them - knowing he roared - and after cantering him around for 10 minutes she asked: "When does he start to roar?" I resisted the temptation to say: "When he's hungry!" because the noise was SO audible!

 

[lannerch]

must admit my chap was very audible before he had the op however now he has you cannot hear a thing you would not know so prehaps bicijp is refering to those that have had a hobday and tie back.

 

[cptrayes]

Basically my opinion is that unless you are buying a horse for racing, wind doesnt matter in the slightest. A vet wouldnt pick anything up in a vetting. If it does worry you, get it scoped and see exactly what is down there.

Cannot agree with this at all, sorry.

Both my friend and I have had horses degenerate to a point where they were unable to complete the training for elementary dressage tests, never mind race! The operations to correct them cost each of us well over two thousand pounds.

Do not buy a whistler or a roarer unless you are prepared to face these costs and the 1 in 100 chance that your horse will not come through a general anaesthetic and recovery alive. I have owned two roarers and neither of them would have passed a vet. No vet I know would pass a roarer without heavily guarded comment.

The reason the condition is degenerative, and common, and always on the left, is that the nerve for the left hand side of the larynx runs from the brain, down the neck, around the heart and back up the neck to the throat. Yes, seriously. In all that length it begins to lose "transmission" and that transmission loss can, and frequently does, get worse. (next time someone religious starts to talk about "intelligent design" you might ask them how intelligent the design of a horse's larynx is )

I have never heard of horses "growing out" of a tieback and I was not warned of that possibility before I paid for it to be done. I can't find any refernce to it on google. They can fail if they are not done by an expert, they can fail if the horse is worked too hard too soon, but "grow out"? , I don't think so. Perhaps if you do it at two years old, but who would in anything but a racehorse?

 

[ImogenBurrows]

Not sure your comments DieselDog - currently there is uncertainty about it being genetic, as not sure how paralysis can be degenerative, once it's paralyzed it really can't move any less.

Partial paralysis or paresis (weakness) is more appropriate terminology as others have alluded to already. I prefer the term laryngeal hemiplegia as it'd technically more correct, but that's just being pedantic TBH.

The condition is graded from 0 (normal) to 4 (complete collapse of the arytenoid cartilage) usually, but can vary a little, most I see would be a 1 or 2 and a few a 3 or rarely a 4.

The treatment is conservative or surgical depending on work load of the horse and degree of hemiplegia. It may continue to get worse and treatment will be altered accordingly.

Partial paralysis is the term most commonly used. These conditions do get worse, a lot of horse's have to have their wind ops redone as they 'grow out' with more work. I know a horse which has had 3 tye - backs.
Hobday's arent really done alone nowadays, but are usually done to support a tye - back because they may as well 'seeing as they are there'. However, with a tye - forward there is no need for a hobday, and as there is no open wound it cuts the recovery period in half.

I also do not know what you mean by "grow out". Tie backs can fail as the tissue sutured is thin and fragile and if the horse returns to work too soon, this can play a factor. Some have infection complications from the airway not being a sterile place; and some breakdown without explanation, frustratingly.

Hobday's are often misunderstood. The actual correct term is a ventriculectomy - the ventricles are pouches of tissue in the larynx near the vocal folds and if these prolapse, they flap about, reverberate at exercise and also cause noises. There is an indication not to remove them if prolapse is not seen, but a number of horses that have successful tiebacks alone without the Hobday procedure, still make a noise and often then have Hobdays...I don't think there's a right or wrong here TBH.

The wind tests vets carry out are worthless, you need a good 12 furlong + gallop to find a horses wind out. I cant think of a horse I have known with a wind op that would fail a vetting, and i have known hundreds.

I'm not sure this isn't a little harsh as how do you know how all vets do wing tests? Or are you just referring to sales for racehorses??

By wind op - are you just referring to hobday or tiebacks too. While corrected cases may not make a noise, vets will often find evidence of the surgical scars. In those cases, depending on the workload of the horse, the vet will decided whether to pass/fail the horse. I do know of some that have failed.

Basically my opinion is that unless you are buying a horse for racing, wind doesnt matter in the slightest. A vet wouldnt pick anything up in a vetting. If it does worry you, get it scoped and see exactly what is down there.

I think that's bold....I'd worry about a noise as it a frequently performance limiting, even at lower workloads - I challenge you to find a vet to recommend a horse for any reasonable level of performance work at faster speeds e.g. eventing/endurance etc for purchase that make even a small noise....I'm not sure you would.

As for a vet not picking anything up...I'm a bit insulted. I spend a good amount of my time vetting general purpose/hunt/sports horses and TBH pick up quite a few from just the standard stage 3 "strenuous exercise" phase. If you mean they wouldn't pick it up post op - it is harder but every horse will be examined for the tell tale scars.

I do agree with your final sentence though, if you're not sure, get it scoped. In a perfect world at exercise too.

Cannot agree with this at all, sorry.

Both my friend and I have had horses degenerate to a point where they were unable to complete the training for elementary dressage tests, never mind race! The operations to correct them cost each of us well over two thousand pounds.

Do not buy a whistler or a roarer unless you are prepared to face these costs and the 1 in 100 chance that your horse will not come through a general anaesthetic and recovery alive. I have owned two roarers and neither of them would have passed a vet. No vet I know would pass a roarer without heavily guarded comment.

+1

The reason the condition is degenerative, and common, and always on the left, is that the nerve for the left hand side of the larynx runs from the brain, down the neck, around the heart and back up the neck to the throat. Yes, seriously. In all that length it begins to lose "transmission" and that transmission loss can, and frequently does, get worse. (next time someone religious starts to talk about "intelligent design" you might ask them how intelligent the design of a horse's larynx is )

Lovely explanation and I quite agree about the design - God had a "off" day!

 

[Spinal Tap]

I loaned an ID x Welsh D mare who roared. When I got her she was unfit and would puff & wheeze if she did more than a stride or 2 of canter, it would definitely have been picked up by a 5 stage vetting. I got her fit (that was hard work!) & she was a different horse, she still roared but only under quite strenuous exercise. We did RC hunter trials with no problem. I wouldn't have attempted BE or hunting with her though.

I personally probably wouldn't buy a roarer, being asthmatic myself I appreciate the virtues of an unimpeded airway, but if all I wanted to do was RC stuff & I wasn't bothered about hunting I would consider a roarer

 

[chestnut cob]

Why has this post been resurrected? I posted it in 2004 or 2006! Very odd...

FWIW, the horse in question turned out to have soft palate displacement, had his palate cauterised and totally transformed. Several years later he is leading a full and active life with his new owners (who are well aware of the condition and the related insurance exclusion, before someone shoots me down for selling a horse with a known condition!) doing lots of hacking, some showing (qualified for the Royal London, M&M large breeds), Nov DR and hunting

 

[ImogenBurrows]

Why has this post been resurrected? I posted it in 2004 or 2006! Very odd...

FWIW, the horse in question turned out to have soft palate displacement, had his palate cauterised and totally transformed. Several years later he is leading a full and active life with his new owners (who are well aware of the condition and the related insurance exclusion, before someone shoots me down for selling a horse with a known condition!) doing lots of hacking, some showing (qualified for the Royal London, M&M large breeds), Nov DR and hunting

LOl that's brilliant news!!! Didn't check the date!!

 

[chestnut cob]

LOl that's brilliant news!!! Didn't check the date!!

LOL, I did and it wasn't you who started it again, it was someone earlier on this morning

But thanks, yes it was good news. I was surprised at how well the op worked and the horse is doing more now than he ever did. When I posted about it on here I was told by several people that it was a barbaric operation but unfortunately it seems to be the only real, proven treatment so he had the op. And it worked, thankfully

 

[ImogenBurrows]

When I posted about it on here I was told by several people that it was a barbaric operation but unfortunately it seems to be the only real, proven treatment so he had the op. And it worked, thankfully

Wow that's a bit harsh....a assume from those who didn't understand it then. barbaric would imply high pain and dramatic reconstruction blah blah blah wouldn't it? I think a tie back itself is great but carries a much higher complication rate....IMO

 

[chestnut cob]

Wow that's a bit harsh....a assume from those who didn't understand it then. barbaric would imply high pain and dramatic reconstruction blah blah blah wouldn't it? I think a tie back itself is great but carries a much higher complication rate....IMO

I guess you're a vet?

TBH it's not nice to have to put your pony through having his soft palate cauterised but there really is no choice when it's either that or him slowly suffocating. He was really poorly for a couple of days after but my vet said it was no different to having your tonsils taken out. He stayed at the vet practise for the first couple of days on lots of painkillers (IV, I think?) so was OK but once he came home, I really struggled to get bute into him so he was sore and couldn't eat. Had about 24 hours or so when he wouldn't even drink but managed to syringe bute down his throat so he picked up and started to drink. Wouldn't touch food despite trying him with sugar beet so someone at the yard suggested bran which worked a treat. He still didn't eat for about another 12 hours but then he very gingerly started nibbling the bran. Whenever people ask about how to encourage a horse to eat on here I always mention fresh mint too as I found putting lots of that on his feed while his throat was sore got him interested. Once he started to eat, he got better very quickly