White Thoroughbred Origins

[KarynK]

Bit of trivia, following on from the recent white TB post I have gone back through the pedigrees of four white thoroughbreds, two of which are from identified Dominant White mutations.

These are Puchilingui, Yuki Chan, The Bride and White Beauty (grandam of Patchen Beauty). None of them are closely related in their first 5 generations.

So I took each of them and looked at ancestors in common back to the 8th generation. This gave me a list of 10 horses as follows:

SELENE (Dam of Hyperion)
CHAUCER (sire of Selene)
PHALARIS
SPEARMINT
ROI HERODE
THE TETRARCH
TEDDY
POLYMELUS
BAY RONALD
SUNDRIDGE

Then taking these horses and listing their family back a further 5 generations I again looked for the common ancestors

There is only 1 horse in all their pedigrees and this is the funny bit his name is NEWMINSTER and I quote from the tbheritage site he was "of a solid bay color without a speck of white,"

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/newminster
http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Newminster.html

At this point we are back in the 1840's and he heavily linebred on Herod, Eclipse and the Godolphin Arabian amongst others.

This is a big "if" as to "if" these horses cropping out have a common ancestor and that ancestor facilitated the dominant white mutations in the TB!!! But it's an interesting exercise.

Others on the list of common horses were:

STOCKWELL who linked to 9 of the 10
MACARONI 8
VEDETTE 8
GALOPIN 7
TOUCHSTONE 6
FLYING DUCHESS 6
BEESWING 6
POCAHONTAS 6
KING TOM 6
DONCASTER 6
HERMIT 6

My theory Bend Or came in at just 5, that's why I don't bet on the bloomin things!!!

Sorry forgot to add of course that back this far not many of these pedigrees can be verified and recent Mitochondrial DNA testing proved that TB pedigrees at this time can (shock horror) be inaccurate!!!!!!!

 

[angrovestud]

This is wonderful the first time in a public forum that i have read where these lines have been traced back. I still think birdcatcher has something to do with all this white, as he also features whalebone and waxy, they are in newminsters pedigree on the male tail line.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/birdcatcher
this is great thank you KarynK!

 

[GinnieRedwings]

Karyn, hugely interesting and informative as usual. But now, you're going to have to make a choice between genetics and birthing issues 'cos your PhD can't cover both!

 

[KarynK]

I could be Dr Dr !!! But it's ages till I get my sticky fingers on the breeding data so I have to do something to fill the gap, sort of a warm up!!!

Will have to double check at some point as I did it from All Breeds but it is interesting and it could be someone common in both Birdcatcher and Newminster that is the catalyst that showed out in Birdcatcher but not in Newminster or the whites are are spontaneous mutations in later generations such are genetics!!
They are both quite heavily line bred on a horse called Tartar (sire of Herod) who in his painting looks to have a white spot on his shoulder? Like you say Angrove they also both have Whalebone close in the pedigree grandsire of Bircatcher. Whalebone sired what sounds like a Rabicano in Sir Hercules, sire of Birdcatcher out of a double bred Eclipse mare who also had Tartar in the pedigree.

But all these early TB's were quite heavily linebred on inbred individuals so it could be this potent mix of horses from all over the place that started it. Does anyone know when the first all white appeared in the breed? I could also do with some more unrelated crop outs, Ideally the first of a line of whites from two conservative parents then see if they trace back to these horses as well?

 

[merrypath]

Aren't those horses common to ALL TBs regardless of color? PatO

 

[magic104]

tbheritage site he was "of a solid bay color without a speck of white - Yet the photo appears to show 2 sploges of white?

Granted one could be a saddle sore healed, but what about the one on the rib cage??

 

[magic104]

This is wonderful the first time in a public forum that i have read where these lines have been traced back. I still think birdcatcher has something to do with all this white, as he also features whalebone and waxy, they are in newminsters pedigree on the male tail line.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/birdcatcher
this is great thank you KarynK!

Talking of Birdcatcher his sire shows some roaning in the pic below

 

[angrovestud]

KarynK I have been on the other forum ad dug up this goes back to 1905 I think
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...SwrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XZwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2331,2496786

The Opera House white filly out in NZ

http://www.theherald.com.au/news/lo...-christmas-for-filly/1702028.aspx?storypage=0
your crop out marm bow.
and her pedigree
http://www.pedigreequery.com/the+opera+house


Nureyev is in here and I believe hes a splash carrier hes in Ricco's Pedigree and I have bred my dominant white colt last year because of it

 

[angrovestud]

http://www.pedigreequery.com/what+a+blaze

his dam

Weatherbys re classified her passport as painted the first british/ Irish bred mare to be documented

 

[angrovestud]

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2069274030056115133BfnsHL


http://www.pedigreequery.com/salvator

interesting case of Splash in this TB but look whos lurking in the past a little birdy

I new I would find it somewhere I would get in touch with Jorge hes a keen observer as he would say but not a scientist, but he did have a complete list of all the white plus there offspring so he would be a valuable contributor of the white stuff!
http://www.pedigreequery.com/white+cross
your first white TB

 

[jaypeebee]

How many reg white TBs have there ever been historically and to date? Its all very interesting unfortunately I dont understand the genetics of it .

 

[flyingcolors]

In Germany we had the race mare WOHER she was white and the name means "from Where" probably to ask from where she got all that white.

Mumtaz Mahal also had a lot of white spots on her:
http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/biographies/mumtaz.htm

 

[angrovestud]

http://www.pedigreequery.com/woher

5 x4 to Galopin taking thoes back to the birdcatcher
I dont know how many their are now over 100 I would guess as there a quiet a lot born in the USA and flying colours breeds them as well

 

[flyingcolors]

I think there is one in UK, then our two in Germany that came from USA and one of their all white Palomino colts who is going to France in summer. In May there is one to arrive from Painted Desert Farm in Germany.

Several in USA, one or two in Japan, a few in New Zealand and Australia, but I do not think there are more than maximum 40 or 50 maybe in the whole world.

 

[KarynK]

Catch up time!!!

Aren't those horses common to ALL TBs regardless of color? PatO

The fact that Birdcatcher (1833) is not in the back pedigree of all of the ten common ancestors of the whites and Newminster (1848) is suggests not, this was a stage where the families had formed and there was a large gene pool, yes behind these horses there is much in and line breeding that was used to fix the type and improve performance. But as I have said “Big IF” what we were looking back for is a possible back pedigree answer to White Thoroughbreds so that’s why I traced them back specifically, like I said it might be nothing to do with it but you have to start somewhere, if I add more unrelated whites and they too trace back here then it will be of more significance.

tbheritage site he was "of a solid bay color without a speck of white - Yet the photo appears to show 2 sploges of white?
Granted one could be a saddle sore healed, but what about the one on the rib cage??

Could be, like you say a lot of them in their pictures have white you can put down to what must have been awful tack!! It might be a scar or a marking hard to tell, but as they have described him as without a speck of white I think maybe scar? So hard to tell back then.

BTW TB heritage are funny with their photos!!!

Talking of Birdcatcher his sire shows some roaning in the pic below

According to his description he had barring across the top of the tail as well so probably a rabicano marking and coat ticking, quite heavy by the sound of it as he was apparently often called grey!

... Its all very interesting unfortunately I dont understand the genetics of it .

Don’t worry neither do we, well bits of it!!

KarynK I have been on the other forum ad dug up this

Thanks for those links Angrove & Flyingcolours will have a look when I get a few spare mins. What I’ll do is look at the first horse in each crop out line and see if they trace back as well, as I have just thought that if you use progeny of whites then you are introducing potentially unconnected horses into the mix. I need to double check on the TB site as All Breeds anyone can change and I need to replace Yuki Chan with her mother who's name I can't spell or pronounce (we didn't do Japanese at school!)

The whites form a very small percentage of the TB population, maybe they are unrelated mutations or maybe not?????

 

[angrovestud]

KarynK sorry to dig up so much but was having such fun had another rumage around today and came across this
In 1850, Pocahontas foaled another colt by The Baron. Named RATAPLAN, he was also a dark chestnut like his sire, and had noticeable white ticking throughout his coat, a legacy of The Baron's sire, Birdcatcher. Rataplan had a star and a couple of white feet front and back. At 16 hands, he was a powerfully built horse like Stockwell, and inherited The Baron's utter vileness to a much more marked degree than Stockwell.
interestingly she produced a foal to newminster as well.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/pocahontas

 

[angrovestud]

Forgot to add
she produced 15 foals, the last at the age of 25. It is believed that, along with her roaring trait, Pocahontas may have carried the "X-factor," a gene mutation for large hearts. This may be because she had 13 crosses to Eclipse in her pedigree. Many stallions have had multiple crosses to Pocahontas, including: The Tetrarch (7), Man o' War (9), Precipitation (27), Nearco (37), Raise A Native (175), Secretariat (249), Northern Dancer (272) and Mr. Prospector(353).

 

[KarynK]

Yes there was a lot of heavy line breeding going on at that time and all the TB families were around, a lot of which have now fallen into disuse, but with that genetic back mix of blood imports and UK horses it could be that one or two mutations may have given rise to the appearance of the whites later on, there were certainly sabinos in there with lots of ticking going on, but it's a bit frustrating as the paintings don't always show it and there is usually only one painting if the horse made it racing and only if the broodmare was famous and then not a close up! Even today a lot of broodmares there are no public pictures of. KEEP DIGGING!!!!

 

[jamesmead]

What is the background colour of these horses? Anywhere I have seen it mentioned it seems to be chestnut. Is that actually the case? Just as chestnuts seem more likely to have loud white markings than bays could it be that the ultimate in loud white markings is more likely to surface when the family throws a chestnut?

 

[KarynK]

What is the background colour of these horses? Anywhere I have seen it mentioned it seems to be chestnut. Is that actually the case? Just as chestnuts seem more likely to have loud white markings than bays could it be that the ultimate in loud white markings is more likely to surface when the family throws a chestnut?

Lets have a quick look! It is sometimes difficult to say with some as the base colours aren't usually recorded especially if they have grey in their pedigree as well, they have not as far as I am aware been tested for base colours.

Yuki Chan's mother was a bay, black or brown but could have been a chestnut carrier as she is by Sunday Silence who sired chestnuts, even though you have to go quite a way back to find a chestnut in his pedigree!
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/shirayukihime

White Beauty could well be a chestnut as she is by a chestnut out of a bay/brown chestnut carrier but her granddaughter Patchen Beauty is a Black base from her sire but could well carry chestnut.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/patchen+beauty

The Bride is a black base and chestnut carrier too
http://www.pedigreequery.com/the+bride4

Puchilingui is a bay from two bays with a chestnut grandfather in Raise A Native.

The other one is Catch a Bird who may well be a mutation as a result of pre natal stress, he never reproduced his white reverse brindling coat pattern but sired true roans, which are also believed to be on the Kit genes with the dominant whites. He was a bay/brown too but again has a chestnut grandparent.

So no, base colour doesn’t seem to affect these crop outs except that those that aren’t chestnut could all be chestnut carriers, it has been said that chestnuts show more white as chestnut is a recessive but I don’t think it’s as simple as that as these whites stem from a different gene and that gene will be dominant over other coat colours visually!

 

[flyingcolors]

There are plenty of bay and black based all whites too.

We do have a chestnut base and a bay base color all white mare. The bay all white had a Palomino ALL WHITE colt with a cremello TB stallion.

Painted Desert has also black base color all whites.

 

[KarynK]

Weatherby's have been very helpful and provided me with a list of 27 horses registered as white in the GSB including some from Chile, though we are unlikely to get a definitive list as some were registered as Grey and some as a base colour where it is shown, but I now have a number of families to work with so I will take these back and see if we can narrow down the list of 10 a bit and see where that leads us.

 

[angrovestud]

KarynK that is so exciting this should be so imformative the peeps on the US forum think that there are even more mutations going on all the time I wonder weather this is true.