Who pays

[Twinmum]

Quick question, we have a pony on loan, the agreement was we pay livery feed and shavings the owner pays for shoes and the tablets the horse is on. The horse is elderly so it’s quite an expense for an old horse that can only been ridden lightly.
The owner went travelling so we have ended up paying for shoes ( several sets) saddle fitting, rugs washed replaced injections etc ....
My question is that someone random on the yard called the vet out to the horse as he was concerned about his breathing - he called the vet late at night so there was a weekend/ night time call out fee.
The horse was checked over by the vet and absolutely fine, so who pays the vet bill?
It’s been given to us but we have Paid for shoes ( not in contract) and lots of other bits
So not sure it’s fair we pay???
Any thoughts??

 

[Tiddlypom]

What does it say in your contract re vets bills?

 

[bonny]

I would say the person who called out the vet, I see no reason at all why you should pay.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Why did the 'someone random on the yard' person not call you to let you know? Surely you have your contact details on or around your stable? I expect they were doing it out of the goodness of their heart but I would have thought they would have called you. As a livery and not a livery yard owner I would only call a vet in a case of severe colic or distress i.e. a fracture if I was unable to call the horses owner first.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Why weren’t you called and told about the vet? Surely someone should have let you know before calling them? But i would say probably yourself is liable as he is effectively in your sole care

 

[TPO]

Quick question, we have a pony on loan, the agreement was we pay livery feed and shavings the owner pays for shoes and the tablets the horse is on. The horse is elderly so it’s quite an expense for an old horse that can only been ridden lightly.
The owner went travelling so we have ended up paying for shoes ( several sets) saddle fitting, rugs washed replaced injections etc ....
My question is that someone random on the yard called the vet out to the horse as he was concerned about his breathing - he called the vet late at night so there was a weekend/ night time call out fee.
The horse was checked over by the vet and absolutely fine, so who pays the vet bill?
It’s been given to us but we have Paid for shoes ( not in contract) and lots of other bits
So not sure it’s fair we pay???
Any thoughts??

Why did someone call the vet without first contacting you? I don't know how you'd go about it but if someone called the vet without speaking to me/owner then I'd be redirecting the bill to them. Why did the vet even come out to a non-emergency appointment for someone who isn't involved with the horse/registered with vets in relation to the horse

 

[bonny]

Why did someone call the vet without first contacting you? I don't know how you'd go about it but if someone called the vet without speaking to me/owner then I'd be redirecting the bill to them. Why did the vet even come out to a non-emergency appointment for someone who isn't involved with the horse/registered with vets in relation to the horse

The caller must have made it sound like an emergency, they called, they should pay.

 

[Twinmum]

The agreement is that the owner would do the tablets he’s on and shoes. He hadn’t ever been vaccinated so I paid to get him up to date. Teeth done etc.
Had I called the vet then I would absolutely pay but we brought the horse in from the field, gave him his pamper session fed him ( he ate everything) and left him in his stable for the night.
So as far as we were concerned he was fine.
It doesn’t seem fair for me or the owner to pay for someone else calling the vet but I don’t want an argument.
Personally if it were me I’d have contacted the owner/loaner and asked their advice before calling a vet - as it turns out we weren't informed until over an hour after the vet left.
Interested to get your thoughts x

 

[Red-1]

It sounds like the error is that of lack of foresight and procedure. IE It sounds like you don't know who pays for vets bills other than for the tablets that the horse is on. Who would pay to have the vet come out and stitch a wound?

Then it sounds like there is a lack of procedure for the yard too. If someone found my horse ill and did not know how to contact me then I would be grateful that they had done what they thought was right and I would pay the bill.

But, now you know you have a lack of procedure, I would firstly find out from the owner who is responsible for vets bills. Then secondly make sure my contact details are near the horse's stable.

If you don't pay the bill you risk no one calling the vet on the day that it is an emergency.


ETA - cross posted with your above reply, but still there needs to be a procedure in place for contacting you.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

The caller must have made it sound like an emergency, they called, they should pay.

Maybe they felt it was an emergency if they saw the horse breathing abnormally.

I think maybe they could go halves at any rate but its difficult to know without having been there and seen what they saw. If the loaner hadn't got any contact details and the yard owner wasn't contactable they probably thought they were doing the best thing for the horse.

 

[Rowreach]

To maintain good relations with the vet, I'd pay the bill.

Then I would be having a discussion with the YO/person who called the vet and establishing a protocol in the event (and with an elderly, medicated pony it's likely) that something similar happens again. As a YO I had it in writing that I could call a vet at my discretion in the event that I couldn't contact the owner first (this after an emergency call out when the owner was abroad on business, uncontactable before the advent of mobile phones, and he objected to the vet's bill ...).

You could put your contact details on the pony's door, asking that you be called immediately if there are any concerns about him, but tbh if my horse looked like it needed a vet I'd rather one was called out for no reason than that the horse was suffering because I wasn't contactable.

As to the cost splitting between you and the owner, I rather think you should have sorted that out before they went travelling, and it's up to you to pay for everything in the meantime and then sort it out whenever they return.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

It sounds

Then it sounds like there is a lack of procedure for the yard too. If someone found my horse ill and did not know how to contact me then I would be grateful that they had done what they thought was right and I would pay the bill.
.

Exactly. The day I arrived at any of the yards I moved onto I made sure the Y.O had my contact details and I've always had a card that is on the card holder on the stable door which includes the horses issues i.e. prone to colic, vet number, my contact number and my o/h's contact number and also my Dad's number when he was alive.

When I go on holiday I leave a detailed account of what I want doing with the horse in terms of feeding and other care on two laminated A4 sheets of paper (in case they get wet and you can't read them) and my and my partners contact number and the vets contact number again. One copy in the manager and one in the feed bin in case the one in the manger is lost. I check my phone both at work and on holiday a number of times a day in case anyone has tried to contact me. It must be dreadful to have lost a horse and not been contactable, especially if you could spend a few precious minutes with it before the vet gets there. I've had around seven or eight 'emergency call outs' from the yard either at work or before work in my time with horses and two of them ended in fatalaties. Now when I see the yard owners number come up on my phone my heart quite literally stops and I have asked her to always sound really quite jolly if she does ring me and there isn't a problem (poor woman must think I'm completely bonkers).

Maybe I am a bit over board with leaving details but rather than that been uncontactable in an emergency.

 

[Twinmum]

I was so upset I wasn’t told
God forbid anything should have happened I’d have wanted to be there for him.
we Are both con

Exactly. The day I arrived at any of the yards I moved onto I made sure the Y.O had my contact details and I've always had a card that is on the card holder on the stable door which includes the horses issues i.e. prone to colic, vet number, my contact number and my o/h's contact number.

When I go on holiday I leave a detailed account of what I want doing with the horse in terms of feeding and other care laminated and my and my partners contact number and the vets contact number again. One copy in the manager and one in the feed bin in case the one in the manger is lost. I check my phone both at work and on holiday a number of times a day in case anyone has tried to

 

[bonny]

I was so upset I wasn’t told
God forbid anything should have happened I’d have wanted to be there for him.
we Are both con

If you were contactable but no one did then don’t pay the bill. I would be very angry if I was you ..

 

[Rowreach]

When I go on holiday I leave a detailed account of what I want doing with the horse in terms of feeding and other care laminated and my and my partners contact number and the vets contact number again. One copy in the manager and one in the feed bin in case the one in the manger is lost. I check my phone both at work and on holiday a number of times a day in case anyone has tried to contact me.

Maybe I am a bit over board with leaving details but rather than that been uncontactable in an emergency.

To add to this, I always had written permission from owners who were going away (for any time at all, but some were away for a month or so) to make a decision about euthanasia if anything happened to their horse. Sounds dramatic, but it happened with a very elderly Cushings/laminitic pony and the whole thing was much more traumatic (for everyone) than it needed to be.

If I was loaning an elderly pony, I'd want to make damn sure I knew what the owner wanted to happen, and that I had permission to decide in their absence.

 

[Twinmum]

We are both contactable and I’m a five min drive from the yard so would have been there as the vet arrived.
The vet is on site and the person who called the vet has my contact details also. It’s sad we weren't immediately informed.
Yes I agree amendments are needed to include who pays if a third party calls the vet.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

To add to this, I always had written permission from owners who were going away (for any time at all, but some were away for a month or so) to make a decision about euthanasia if anything happened to their horse. Sounds dramatic, but it happened with a very elderly Cushings/laminitic pony and the whole thing was much more traumatic (for everyone) than it needed to be.

If I was loaning an elderly pony, I'd want to make damn sure I knew what the owner wanted to happen, and that I had permission to decide in their absence.

Yes I wish more Y.O's were like you and had that discussion. I've made it clear to my lovely Y.O (who deffo thinks I'm mad lol) that my horse must be pts by lethal injection and not shot (having had it go wrong on a previous horse) should I not make it in time for any reason and I don't want any ashes back.

Sometimes people think its an awkward conversation to have. It's like having a conversation with loved ones about organ donation and cremation v burial but is essential nevertheless.

 

[bonny]

Yes I wish more Y.O's were like you and had that discussion. I've made it clear to my lovely Y.O (who deffo thinks I'm mad lol) that my horse must be pts by lethal injection and not shot (having had it go wrong on a previous horse) should I not make it in time for any reason and I don't want any ashes back. But that if there is even the remotest chance in the case of an emergency situation (where pts in inevitable) that the horse can be kept comfortable in the few minutes its likely it would take me to get to the yard I'd really 'like' to be with my horse as the end.

Sometimes people think its an awkward conversation to have. It's like having a conversation with loved ones about organ donation and cremation v burial but is essential nevertheless.

I think you are going off on a bit of a tangent here ! This pony required no treatment at all !

 

[hopscotch bandit]

I think you are going off on a bit of a tangent here ! This pony required no treatment at all !

Sorry Bonny getting a bit worked up here. You are quite right. Sorry OP. Glad your horse is okay. I've just seen your reply that you were contactable. Shove the bill over to them, that's really naughty they called the vet on your behalf.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I wonder if the horse had choke when the random person on the yard saw it, but it had cleared by the time the vet arrived?

 

[Twinmum]

I’m not one for arguments, so will probably pay to keep the peace but it’s really put me off loaning.
It had been such a positive experience up until this point, thanks for all your advice I think you have to prepare for every eventuality when loaning x

 

[Twinmum]

I wonder if the horse had choke when the random person on the yard saw it, but it had cleared by the time the vet arrived?

You are Possibly right, vet said possibly a bit of dust... either way he’s ok which is the main thing

 

[be positive]

I think it likely that as the vet is on site the person calling didn't think beyond the fact that they would be there quickly and did not consider the bill, much the same for the vet who just responded to a call for help on the yard whereas they would not normally come out to a horse if called by a random person with no authority to act on behalf of the owner.
It is something every horse owner needs to consider as while they think they are always contactable there are times when the signal fails or the vet really does need to be called first, if you are loaning you definitely need to know the wishes of the owner should something really serious happen and there is no time to waste trying to make contact.

 

[ihatework]

I’m not one for arguments, so will probably pay to keep the peace but it’s really put me off loaning.
It had been such a positive experience up until this point, thanks for all your advice I think you have to prepare for every eventuality when loaning x

This isn’t actually about loaning at all.
Could just as easily been if you owned the horse.

This is about yard procedure.
My question would be
1) who phoned the vet?
a) YO/YM - then they are within their rights and they have a duty of care. You or owner would be liable. But I would question why you weren’t contacted first.
b) Random livery. Well I would give the livery a mouthful and also be phoning the vet to ascertain why they attended a horse that was not under ownership or care of this person without checking to see if the guardian had consented.

Either way the bill will likely need to be paid. I’d ask the owner their thoughts on this before going any further

 

[SEL]

I had a horse on share / loan some years ago and we had a couple of problems. The first was when it was still a share agreement and his owner was overseas. Another livery found him sweaty in his stable and called the vet - despite the fact I was out poo picking at the time. They knew that, just decided I had no authority.

Luckily owner knew that livery, rolled her eyes and paid the call out fee (horse was fine and it wasn't colic)

Second time I was at a wedding, owner was away and horse did actually colic. Lady who was feeding that night left worried messages on my phone and I ended up calling vet from 200 miles away - & called in a few favours from other liveries.

So communication channels can get a bit blurred in these kind of arrangements, esp if the legal owner isn't around. I would pay the bill this time, politely ask that you be called next time and speak to the horse's owner to get clarity on who pays what.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I wonder if the vet is being a bit naughty here, if the livery asked vet to check the horse, as a fellow livery rather than as a vet, if the horse was choking and the livery is inexperienced and didn't recognise it for what it was. Then vet decided to send a bill, possibly because they don't like being 'exploited' for their professional opinion.
OP in this instance I think you will have to pay the bill but leave clear instructions that you are to be contacted in case of emergency. I would have a chat with the livery who asked the vet for a detailed account of what actually happened, as I wouldn't expect your bill to be large.

 

[Goldenstar]

What does your contract with the yard say about emergency call outs ?

 

[ester]

I wonder if the vet is being a bit naughty here, if the livery asked vet to check the horse, as a fellow livery rather than as a vet, if the horse was choking and the livery is inexperienced and didn't recognise it for what it was. Then vet decided to send a bill, possibly because they don't like being 'exploited' for their professional opinion.
OP in this instance I think you will have to pay the bill but leave clear instructions that you are to be contacted in case of emergency. I would have a chat with the livery who asked the vet for a detailed account of what actually happened, as I wouldn't expect your bill to be large.

The vet being onsite does not mean that they are a fellow livery.

 

[Equi]

As the loaner i would expect you to pay for vet bills outside of what was agreed (ie the tablets and shoes..which you have paid for anyway....) but for someone random to call a vet out to your horse without permission or contact...well its up to you if you pay or you fight to make them pay. I don't think the owner should pay for that unless they want to pay for it as payback for your shoes..suppose my point is you need to talk to owner, talk to the person who did it and decide what you want to do yourself. I do agree though that the vet might be being a little naughty but at the same time it must be horrible to be a vet on a yard...everyone will want free advise.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

The vet being onsite does not mean that they are a fellow livery.

No - but it could do. I'm sure you saw that I said 'I wonder'.

If the horse needed no treatment, the bill should be very small.