Who would you register with? Sorry another silly question!

Vickijay

Vickijay

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Hi there.
I am looking to get Dottie a passport now as it will be time for her to come back from stud soon. She is by a Knapstrupper out of my TB mare. I was told by the lady at the stud she would register with Weatherbys none TB as is more interesting with a spotty one. I spoke to them and not sure if I was in the wrong place but they said I would need to change my mare to a broodmare with them (£89) register the stallion (who knows how much for that) and the foal (£290) Seems pricey and I (and the woman on the phone) couldnt really see the advantages.
I spoke to the KNN and they said it would make lots more sense to go with them as she is a part bred rare breed and it would be a pedigree document. Then she would be all ready to go to a KNN or (ZWsomething something) grading when shes 3.
Would everyone else just go with the Knapstrupper side? I plan to compete on her mainly but would like the idea of maybe breeding from her one day.
What would you do? Cos to be honest my head felt like it was going to blow up after getting off the phone
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!!!!!
Thanks for reading.
Vicki
 
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I'd go with the Knabstrupper papers definitely... Who's she by?

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Shes by Thore Vom Pferdehof. Why would you defo choose them?
 
You could have her registered with the KNN. This is the mother studbook in Denmark. Your horse would then receive papers issued by Danish authorities; inspection itself is done in the U.K.

Or:

You could have her registered with the U.K.A., which is a society in the U.K. with allowance of issuing passports for Knabstruppers by DEFRA. This might be the easiest possibility (also financially).

Or:

You could have her registered with the ZfdP, which is a German Breeding Association holding the biggest Knabstrupper studbook in the world.

Thore vom Pferdehof himself was bred in Germany at a small, but highly regarded Knabstrupper breeding facility. Thore is branded and originally fully graded and licenced at ZfdP and received premium status at his grading. Before coming to the U.K. Thore passed a 30-days-stallion-performance-test in Germany. Thore represents the fully baroque type of this breed with a 100% pure bred pedigree status in 3rd as well as in 4th generation. This is a very precious breeding status, which is highly regarded in Germany.
I hope my statement gives you a chance of making the right choice to decide, where you want to have your horse registered.
 
Thanks Pendragon.
Would you have her with the ZfdP then because of Thore being with them and the 4th generation part? And would it still work with my mare being a full TB?
Vicki
 
Hi Vicky,
Thore is fully registered with KNN as well. So, it is absolutely up to you.
Your filly will have main studbook status at ZfdP as well as at KNN as Thoroughbred blood is allowed out-crossing.
There are several advantages and disadvantages with each of the associations:
KNN
Advantage: it is the EU motherbook. For some reason some people think that Knabstruppers are more valuable, when they have a KNN registration number.
Disadvantage: Main board changes every two years and consists of breeders, no objective professionals.
ZfdP:
Advantage: Biggest Knabstrupper studbook in the world (more experience with the different types and more competition within the breed and most important: breeder support regarding the pure bred Knabstrupper, which becomes more and more important nowadays).
Professional and objective breeding director, objective main board, and consistency in the decisions of a big association. Lower costs in total.
Regarding your TB mare you would be open to other studbooks as well, such as German Riding Horse as ZfdP holds at least 46 breed studbooks at the moment.
Disadvantage: not the Knabstrupper mother studbook.

So, your choice.
 
I personally think it would make sense to register with the KNN as it is the mother stud book, that is the way I have gone with my Knabstrupper and I have found them to be a really friendly, totally proffesional, knowledgable and helpful society.
The Knabstrupper is a "Danish" breed and the KNN are the "Danish" society for the breed.
They have a UK daughter society here now (Knabstrupper Society GB) and organise their own gradings, judged by Danish judges, which is extremely professional and objective!!! (I am not sure exactly which "professional qualifications" the Z(whatever) judges hold that makes them so much better though) I have no knowledge about them at all, but personally would find it strange why someone with a Danish breed should need to register with another countries stud book, but I am sure there are explanations which I obviously do not know of and you must draw your own conclusions to that
I wonder as well if it may be an idea to speak with Thor's owner and ask for her opinion. Then she could explain to you why she also graded the stallion with the KNN even though he was already graded in Germany. I expect she would be more than happy to help you with your decision.
I can only give you my personal experience from actually living in the UK and new to the breed, but I hope this helps you make the right decision, because it could work out very expensive if you change your mind at a later date and end up having to register with both??
Hope this is of some help.
 
It is not unusual for stallion owners to have their stallion registered at several societies as this is to serve the preferences of their customers, the mare owners.
It is cheaper for the stallion owners to pay the fees for their stallion to several societies, instead of the mare owners paying extra fees to have their foal branded at a society the stallion is not registered with.
As the stallion Thore is in the U.K. and, as previously stated some breeders think that a KNN brand is of more value for some reason (which can also be interpreted looking at the "personal" statement of Cornishnag), it is a good marketing strategy to have the stallion double registered.
 
There is nothing in my "personal" statement to imply that I think it makes the horse more valuable
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I am simply giving my perspective from my experience, being new to the breed and residing in the UK.
There is nothing unusual in thinking that anyone with whatever breed would usually want it to be registered with the mother stud book, at least as the first point of contact even though I can understand why maybe some may want to be registered with other societies as well.
Pendragon, "me thinks the lady doth protest too much"
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and please do not try to quote words into my posts in the future which are clearly not there in the first place.
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Z-whatever is ZfDP and a very reputable Horse Breeding Association!

The breeding directors in Germany need to have to have studied for years and need to have two States Exams to proof they are good and worth to be breed director.

The KNN consists of private breeders of which none has studied breeding and all cook their own soups and every now and then - very often - when there are squabbels - the management changes.

So please stop undermining the ZfDP.
 
flying coloure, I dont think cornishnag was undermining the ZfDP at all, just stating that it makes sense to her to go to the mother stud book

Obviously you and Pendragon are heavily involved with the ZfDP so will make a good case for registering with them. Cornishnag was just giving another opinion
 
@Volatis: I see your point, but I personally find it very strange to call a big breeding association ...(whatever), when you mention it and try to make a correct statement on the pros and cons.

Hmmm, and looking at Cornishnag's last statements here you can see, that I was correct.


@Vickijay: Again, I am sorry that your thread and your question for information is abused here.
 
Few points from a UK Breeder of Graded Knabstupper horses:

Weatherbys do not and will not include ANY lineage in a pedigree of a horse that is not registered with them, in fact they don't show a pedigree in a passport, they hold it on record. No matter if you register the stallion with them too, it does not mean they will recognise his ancestry, be very careful as I have papered a horse up with them in the past and it proved difficult to convince foregin societies of my horse's lineage when it wasn't included in the passport document. I needed a MAFF recognisable passport at the time and BApS had just voted to break away from the American mother book at the time, thus comprimising the the validity of the document my horse held at the time, so I had it cancelled and replaced by Weatherbys. So this may present problems should you wish to grade/breed form your horse in future AND include all ancestors in the pedigree.

The COST! Anything to do with Weatherbys needs endless amounts of money, and for what in return??? For a society that hasn't recognised basic coat colours of the horses it registered until recently, will only ever move forward the day it recognises and endorses the use of AI!!

I haven't read in the posts above any reference to TB mares used in Knab breeding NEEDING WB breeding approval (graded), some Knab societies stipulate that certain WB breeding approval is required, namely Trakehner. The KNN do not offer grading of outcross mares in their own gradings. I'd look into getting the TB mare graded as it will determine which book the foal is eventually registered in.

Enjoy your young horse, she sound lovely,

Gavin Jones
 
Pendragon, I am sorry that I know nothing of the ZDPF I did not realise that I was under scrutiny for my Whatever statement. I do feel however that anything I have posted is purely from experience in the hope that Vickijay can get an objective opinion from more than one person.
I do however take offence to you inferring that for some reason I registered with the KNN as it would make my horse more valuable, that is total rubbish. I looked at my options and it made sense to me to register with the mother society.

I also hope that when you talk of "abuse" you are reffering to the post of flying colours. I feel that to hurl accusations of that nature at another society is nothing but pure slander, extremely childish and somewhat desperate. I have no reason to hurl abuse at anyone elses society, everyone has their reasons for their preference and I respect that.
It is such a shame that I am not allowed to give my opinion and experience on this forum for vickijay without it ending up with "mud slinging" at the society of my choice.
I repeat that in my experience with a new horse the KNN was the society I chose as it was the mother society, I had a Danish horse and that was the way I wanted to go. I find them to be a friendly, professional, extremely helpful and democratic society.
I also find it interesting that you are again not reading my words by inferring I have hijacked Vikijays original post by giving her an account of my experience with one of the societies that you already mentioned, but then I did not realise that you are the only one allowed to give an opinion on this forum here in the UK
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I think it will be up to vickijay to draw her own conclusions now from what she has read on the way she may want to go
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I do not care with what association someone does register their foals, be it KNN or ZfDP or PinkPankBluePants, but the way you discriminated a valuable and large German breeding organisation really made me angry. The KNN is consisting of privates and not states authorised people like the ZfDP.
 
Hi Vickijay

It is not a stupid question as it is fairly confusing but worth sussing out
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Congrats on your foal - she is stunning
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I would agree with the other posters that you should go the Knabstrupper route with her. I am not sure if you can get KNN papers for your foal at this stage but you can check it out by contacting someone here http://www.knabstruppersociety.org.uk/ or by asking Thore's owner. He is lovely stallion and he was Premium graded with the KNN. So your choice maybe limited to ZFDP or UKA anyhow. However even if your filly is not eligible KNN papers she would be eligible to grade with the KNN studbook when she is three plus.

Now Pendragon has written " Your filly will have main studbook status at ZfdP as well as at KNN as Thoroughbred blood is allowed out-crossing"
Just to clarify that point your filly would be Mainbook with the KNN only if her TB dam gets graded at sometime, otherwise the filly would be F1 studbook status. I think the KNN will accept TBs mare graded into UK studbooks - again you can check that out through the contact I have put above. The significance of that is if your filly was F1 her colts would not be eligible for stallion grading as Knabstrupper so by not getting your TB mare graded you are limiting the market for your filly's foals in the future and also the market for your filly if you were to sell her on. Her daughters would be F2 and their colts would also not be eligible - it is not until a mare gets to F3 that her colts are eligible.
So it would add to the value of your filly to have her dam graded. The important thing is not so much your papers but to ensure your filly is graded and eligible for Mainbook Knab status with all Knab books be it KNN or ZFDP. The KNN will also require the filly to be DNA parentage verified which I am not sure if the ZFDP require.
You have a gorgeous filly out of a lovely mare by a super Knab stallion. I personally think it is well worth getting her Knab papered & graded when she is older because you will set her up as a good breeding prospect with a rare breed and widen the market for her if you would ever have to sell her and I think that is an important thing for a breeder to do
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I go through the KNN as a matter of personal choice and have been very happy with them. There was no other alternative in the UK when I started to register my Knabs.The passports are issued by the Defra equivalent in Denmark and there is a wonderful database with all Knabs recorded and their grading results, pedigree, sport results, offspring, covering details for the stallions. It is great for a Knab anorak to read
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Hope I have not confused you even more
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and I have to ad that it is the same in the ZfDP, the mare must be graded first, before the foal can get Knabstrupper papers with ZfDP. Every mare has to be graded first before the foal can ge registered and papered.
 
Jeez if i wasnt confused already I am now! Im sorry to of started such a heated debate but am interested to read everything everyone has written.
I will defo go with eiher the KNN or the ZFDP so will forget about Weatherbys.
I am going to find out about having her mum graded so then at least thats sorted.
Does it need to happen within a specific time?
Thanks to the people that have said shes lovely (i confess shes one of the best things ive ever seen! lol)
Vicki x
 
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