Who's liable?

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Siam Jack

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Hi folks,
My new mare, Jasmine has been here for a full week now and not too bad, the bolting out of the stable has calmed down loads and she is a little sweetie!
My problem is.... we have now put her in with the other mares as she was very isolated in her own field and we were given the OK by her owners to mix her as she said she likes to have friends around her, she is not a fighter and just likes a peaceful life,and she is fully insured.
We turned her out yesterday and she made friends with a big TH mare called Pippy who never left her side, BUT the yard gossips have been at it again!!! someone went to get their horse and Pippy reared at them protecting Jasmine we were told? who would be liable if someone was injured?
I am now considering sending her back (we have her on loan with a view to buy) as the yard gossip has already been on to her owner saying people are not happy!!!
 
First of all i would speak to the owner of the horse and make sure she hears everything from you.

Secondly i would speak to YO about people gossiping and if you cant find a suitable resolution try and find another yard.

I would also speak to YO regarding liability insurance (i presume your horse is covered). I would very much doubt you can be held responsible for a horse that is not yours injuring a person in the field.
 
Currently you are strictly liable for injury or damage caused by your horse, whatever precautions you take (ie it doesnt matter what steps you took to ensure safety, if the event happens and your horse is the cause, you will have to pay the £0000000s.

That follows a test case that went all the way up the courts (where a car driver crashed into a horse that had escaped from an extremely well fenced field and was badly hurt, everyone agreed the horse wasnt excitable and the fencing etc was great but the owner was still liable for huge damages). The government is considering amending the Animals Act to change this and spell out that in the absence of negligence you shouldnt be liable, but they havent done it yet and until/unless they do, you are liable if Jasmine injured someone.

So, if you do leave her in there, or even if you dont, make sure you a very good third party liability insurance policy for any horse. It's not expensive. The easiest way is to have BHS Gold membership.

If another horse injured someone because of protecting Jasmine, their owner would be liable but might try to sue the yard owner for keeping the horses together when they were aware that it was causing a dangerous situation. Or you, if you were asked to separate them and refused.
 
Thats the problem Allover, we didnt know any of this until the owner phoned us!! I really wish people would have the guts to face us about any concerns! I have decided to let the yard know if they have any problems to come to me first.

The YO is really good and she agreed to the field bit, she told me last night that she kept an eye on Jas and she had settled really well grazing peacefully, its the other horse that caused a problem!! I will check out the insurance side of it!
thanks
 
Siam Jack said:
Thats the problem Allover, we didnt know any of this until the owner phoned us!!

The YO is really good and she agreed to the field bit, she told me last night that she kept an eye on Jas and she had settled really well grazing peacefully, its the other horse that caused a problem!! I will check out the insurance side of it!
thanks
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The owner of the horse or the YO?

It really annoys me too when people cant speak straight to your face, i had a situation with my mare and another gelding on the yard, basically the owner of the gelding was told not to take her horse into my mares field, which she ignored. My mare apparently came flying over and "attacked" the gelding and owner. There was no-one there to witness it. She then was stomping round the yard telling everyone what she would like to do to me and my horse and i was rung and told to stay away for the day and another girl on the yard would do my girl. Anyway i thought bugger that and went up there as normal, walked straight onto the yard and said to woman "oh my god i am soooo sorry about what happened with Nik earlier, i hope you are ok, did she hurt either of you" blah blah blah all nicey. Completely wrong footed her and yard owner came over and said "it was her own silly bloody fault i dont know how many times she needs to be told to keep these horses apart" :D It was sooooo funny. My mare hadnt "attacked" anyone, just was having a bit of a dance and show off in front of him!!:D
 
it was the owner of Jasmine!
I was very put out that she was told all of this in a phone call from someone else on the yard (who she knows) and we knew nothing!!
She had said we could loan Jas til we were sure about her and now said we need to make a decision asap as she is getting all this bad info! she will have her back no problem, but its so flipping annoying that other are getting involved in MY business!
 
I would find another yard!! they all sound very unhelpful to you and your mare, when you move somewhere new try to have individual grazing for a few months but very close so they can nuzzle over the fence.

Yards where a large group of horses are all out together is often difficult when catching in etc especially at the beginning while horses are sorting their pecking order when a new one has been introduced. You need to be on a yard where everyone is experienced and don't go backbiting just because a horse is behaving like a horse! Good luck things will settle down but you must take control of the situation.
 
Rouletterose said:
I would find another yard!! they all sound very unhelpful to you and your mare, when you move somewhere new try to have individual grazing for a few months but very close so they can nuzzle over the fence.

Yards where a large group of horses are all out together is often difficult when catching in etc especially at the beginning while horses are sorting their pecking order when a new one has been introduced. You need to be on a yard where everyone is experienced and don't go backbiting just because a horse is behaving like a horse! Good luck things will settle down but you must take control of the situation.
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Yeah! :D

Why is Jasmins owner rushing you, surely she should be peed off with the gossiping people.
 
this is realy sad i would speak to the horses owner you are loaning and tell her you will keep her informed . and explain that other people need not to get involved as its upsetting you . horses tend to do these sort of things when a new one arrives this big mare will settle and yours in no time will just blend in and be one of the herd . im sure the owner wont want to miss a sale of her horse threw gossiping ideot who have nothing more to do . im at a yard were that just doesnt happen
 
It is most important that you ensure that you have Third Party Liability Insurance cover to no less than £10,000,000 (Ten million pounds). Many insurers do not insure to this level so check carefully. The court case mentioned above indicated that this level of insurance was essential.
 
Thanks folks, the moving yard bit is a little difficult as I also have a big gelding who has been there for about 7yrs (we only got him this year) and I really don't want to start moving 2.
We have assured Jasmine's owner we will keep her informed of everything, but I feel like saying , now you are putting pressure on us just take her back!
I got her in tonight with a friend and Jasmine would not come to me (field full of grass!) so we walked the full field to get her and her friend Pippy never bothered us!
I am 55yrs old (and very new to this) and my little friend is 14yrs I would never dream of letting her go in a field full of horses on her own when things are unsettled
 
omg, yards can be so awful! Why do people feel the need to run and tell tales rather than speak to you, it just causes ill feeling and things end up getting blown out of all proportion! People who run with tales also tend to exaggerate - a lot! - The mare that reared was probably racing around excited and this gets translated into attacking someone, they are pathetic. But, in any case, you would not be liable if your horse didn't hurt someone regardless of whether another horse was protecting yours, the owner of the other horse would. Sounds like your YO needs to tell certain other, tale telling, liveries to 'get a grip'!
 
Don't want to get all technical, as the Animals Act, which is the Act lachlanandmarcus is referring to as regards strict liability is a difficult act to interpret. However, "strict liability" does not mean "automatic liability whatever the circumstances". The provisions of the Animals Act still have to be proved for strict liability to attach and there are defences, though limited. Cases have been successfully defended recently. You would generally sue under the Animals act and in negligence as well to cover both angles.

With regard to cover, a cyclist in Jersey (possibly Guernsey, I always get those wrong) has just been awarded a figure around £15 million, though he doesn't get this as a lump sum. It is a figure he COULD end up with in total after a number of years as his award was given partially in periodical payments, whereby he will get a certain amount of money each year for a certain period or life, whatever is agreed; and added up, this could come to £15m.
 
I've just noticed I'm a Sport Horse. I'll have to sue myself under misrepresentation, I fear. Sooner I get to Veteran the better....
 
Have just bought the "gold membership" from BHS.... panicked a bit and though OMG I need this now!!
Been on the phone to owner to put her mind at rest a bit?? and explained that I knew nothing and as yet no one has said a word on the yard!!!
 
Siam Jack said:
Have just bought the "gold membership" from BHS.... panicked a bit and though OMG I need this now!!
Been on the phone to owner to put her mind at rest a bit?? and explained that I knew nothing and as yet no one has said a word on the yard!!!
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Well done, its a good idea even tho this will prob all settle down. It's really part of the basic costs of having a horse and peace of mind as the two dont always go together!

I poss overstated the strict liability as not a legal beagle :-0, but its not far off, and the best thing to do is be well covered and then relax! Dont think you will regret getting it, in comparison to horse costs it isnt that much really £££.
 
cariad said:
Don't want to get all technical, as the Animals Act, which is the Act lachlanandmarcus is referring to as regards strict liability is a difficult act to interpret. However, "strict liability" does not mean "automatic liability whatever the circumstances". The provisions of the Animals Act still have to be proved for strict liability to attach and there are defences, though limited. Cases have been successfully defended recently. You would generally sue under the Animals act and in negligence as well to cover both angles.

With regard to cover, a cyclist in Jersey (possibly Guernsey, I always get those wrong) has just been awarded a figure around £15 million, though he doesn't get this as a lump sum. It is a figure he COULD end up with in total after a number of years as his award was given partially in periodical payments, whereby he will get a certain amount of money each year for a certain period or life, whatever is agreed; and added up, this could come to £15m.
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LOL, I would love to see someone be awarded that amount against me for one of my ponies misdemeanour's! they would be lucky to get it at £1 per week!
 
Well, it's the insurers who pay out where you have insurance. But do be aware that if you're not insured but have assets such as a house, land or whatever, even down to a horsebox or any small asset, any judgment can be enforced against those assets and you could lose them.

You can look at this two ways. Yes, if you have no assets and no insurance, then it is usually not worth suing you as there's nothing to go against. But on the other hand, if you were severely and permanently injured as a result of someone's negligence - and you have to prove that and causation to have any hope of compensation -would you not like to think there was insurance there to care for you for the rest of your life? After all, it's not your fault you're now wheelchair bound, can't eat solid food, need manual bowel evacuation, have totally lost any independence and active life and have a reduced life expectancy. It would be just rubbing salt into already extensive wounds for someone to say "huh, like to see you get that out of me!" as if it's a good thing. Insurance is there for a reason and not all claimants are just out to make a quick couple of thousand for a whiplash for a few weeks. Severely injured people need extensive help and insurance is there to pay for just that where their injuries are no fault of their own and can be proved to be so. Their lives are wrecked, but proper financial compensation can help a great deal.
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
Currently you are strictly liable for injury or damage caused by your horse, whatever precautions you take (ie it doesnt matter what steps you took to ensure safety, if the event happens and your horse is the cause, you will have to pay the £0000000s.

That follows a test case that went all the way up the courts (where a car driver crashed into a horse that had escaped from an extremely well fenced field and was badly hurt, everyone agreed the horse wasnt excitable and the fencing etc was great but the owner was still liable for huge damages). The government is considering amending the Animals Act to change this and spell out that in the absence of negligence you shouldnt be liable, but they havent done it yet and until/unless they do, you are liable if Jasmine injured someone.

So, if you do leave her in there, or even if you dont, make sure you a very good third party liability insurance policy for any horse. It's not expensive. The easiest way is to have BHS Gold membership.

If another horse injured someone because of protecting Jasmine, their owner would be liable but might try to sue the yard owner for keeping the horses together when they were aware that it was causing a dangerous situation. Or you, if you were asked to separate them and refused.
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That is a very different scenario from some-one walking into afield full of horses and getting injured. In the instance quoted, the animals should have been kept in their field and no matter how good the fencing appeared, it obviously wasn't adequate. Even if some-one else left the gate open, the owner should have made sure that this wasn't possible. If someone walks into a field full of horses, the horse owner cannot possibly take precautions to protect that person.
I'm afraid I've obviously missed an earlier post. What is the other liveries' problem with your loan horse? Could you keep just your 2 together in one field, so that no-one else needs to go in with them?
 
I can really relate to all of this. My 27 year old was battered by the new livery mare a week last Friday. This was the third injury in 3 weeks and will definitely be the last. Unfortunately it is a farm which just does a bit of DIY livery and the owners aren't very knowledgeable about neds, nor the lies that many owners tell in order to get off one yard and onto another. We didn't want this one in with ours as all but one are 27 and older and it is terrible practice to mix young and veteran (the mare is a 6 yo TB) but it was that or lose a big chunk of our grazing and we haven't got enough as it is. The first ding opened up an old scar on her hind leg, the second took a sizeable chunk out of the front surface of the hock (3 weekds later it is only just scabbing over) and the final was a massive haematoma on her buttock (melon size, and that's no exxaggeration) plus gouges to the inside of her other hind leg from her groin down and a very nasty slice across the inside of the hock. Both these should have been stitched really but I've already paid £365 for drugs for her this month and didn't fancy finding another £300+ (would have of course if I thought it was really necessary). The owner of the other horse refuses to remove the horse to the isolation paddock where mine is feeling sad and lonely at the moment and the YO has gone away for a week. Great. Any suggestions anyone?
 
why is it when these sorts of people have horses that 'do something' they make excuses even when there aren't any. Yet when someone else has a new horse there is not even a few days allowed for it to settle before it becomes a major problem

They just really make me sick!!!
 
Sorry if I'm being dim here but here's how I read your OP...
You turn Jasmine out with Pippy
They make friends.
When someone goes to get Pippy in, Pippy rears up to protect Jasmine?
I don't see how you could be liable for someone else's horse rearing up at them - it wasn't Jasmine doing the rearing?
 
lctrouble said:
Sorry if I'm being dim here but here's how I read your OP...
You turn Jasmine out with Pippy
They make friends.
When someone goes to get Pippy in, Pippy rears up to protect Jasmine?
I don't see how you could be liable for someone else's horse rearing up at them - it wasn't Jasmine doing the rearing?
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This is what I've struggled with.

Just ignore everyone OP - worry about your own horse, and let them worry about theirs.
 
New horses joining a herd often cause a few days of excitement, even if they have been in an isolation paddock. Thats life. I've got a vet bill for my 4 year old bashing her legs when a new horse was introduced to the herd. Wouldn't occur to me to ask the owner of the new horse to pay.
Another newbie will be going in with them in a few days, this time, I'll take my younster out while the running around is going on and pop some brushing boots on for an hour when she first meets her.
If people can't cope with herd behaviour, they should work around it or remove their own horse. Life soon gets back to normal. Far more risk of injury to horses and owners in stormy weather. Should we sue the weather ?
 
I agree, horses will be horses and unfortunately they don't know they have shoes on, but by glorious irony, the owner of the horse that bashed mine is sueing the owner of the previous yard for a minor ding on its leg and claiming they are liable. My old girl is partially blind, and has bad arthritis so couldn't gey out of the way, even if she saw the kick coming. She has had more injuries in the last 4 weeks than in the rest of the 16 years I've had her, and these are the worst I've every had to deal with. The other owner admitted her mare was limpet and would attach herself to another horse from the outset and also commented to me that she hoped one of the horses would keep her in her place as she tended to get above herself (didn't mention that meant with its back feet). As if two 27 year olds, a meek and mild 9 year old, a 30 year old and a 32 year old were going to fight back??? She also didn't mention that the horse would keep its new best buddy from approaching any other horse, humans and the gate. Trying to catch and remove a seriously hobbling pensioner in the dark in those circumstances was not my idea of fun. I can't tell you how angry and upset I am for my poor old girl who is gentle and welcoming to strangers and certainly didn't do anything to warrent me reaming out the gunge from the wound with a cotton bud twice a day. I just hope the huge haematoma doesn't turn into an abcess.
 
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