Why are some riding instructors like this?

[ILuvCowparsely]

So today I signed up for a cross country schooling clinic on a youngish horse who's never jumped solid fences before and only started jumping at all a few weeks ago. Signed up for a beginners group. Looking forward to the clinic and feeling positive at the start as the show jumping is going well. Aim was to have fun and let the horse see some solid fences. Instructor was determined I should pick up a fast canter and ride fast at the jumps. i wanted to let her see them first and give her time to have a think. We trotted into some jumps, cantered off the other side or cantered in gently. Other rider in the group said she couldn't jump but turns out she used to do Open Classes. Felt very negative by the end of it, even though horse behaved perfectly, no stops, didn't touch a fence, straight in the water, over small ditches, down steps. By the end of the session she stopped just short of calling me names but there was no doubt what she thought of me!

I can't believe I paid all that money to have someone make me feel such a loser! Horse was fab, but I feel like giving up!

Years ago I had Yogi Breisner , in a training clinic in Bucks, I am a experienced instructor, but my mare was a beginner. I chose to go in the beginner class, as it was for her experience not mine. He was brilliant and very attentive to every rider and horse, gave much confidence to everyone.
We all cantered round the field with Yogi getting horses used to atmosphere and the jumps. I would not be coming into jumps in canter to start with, I would have small jumps ( like we had) which you can do in trot


Going on what you wrote, I would not be happy being asked to canter fast into a solid jump which the horse had no experience with. It can not only scare a horse but could unnerve a rider.

You don't say size of jumps but judging on his instruction I would say they were not as small a jump as they could be starting off a young horse.



In your shoes I would seek out another instructor, who is better for your horse.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

This instructor wasn't a former british team dressage rider with the initials ME was it?

I had a very similar experience where they listed all of the ways I was really terrible and how (due to their failings as a coach, although they won't say that!) They couldn't help me as I was beyond redemption ?.

They were wrong and we are now going great guns! Please don't feel disheartened once you find an instructor that really clicks with you the improvement will be amazing!

No, he was a Grand Prix rider with the initials DW. To be fair to him, the actual lesson part was fairly good and I came away with a good tip and pattern to ride, it was just the attitude and unneccessary dressing down afterwards.

Thank you, I am super lucky that I have a brilliant instructor who comes to the yard every week to teach me, and who has done wonders for us - truly! I went to him as a way to get Jacob out for the first time (and I wanted to have an excuse to ride at Hickstead )

 

[be positive]

From a sports psychology point of view the use of 'don't' or 'try not to' is unhelpful as brain registers the key concept of the phrase. Eg 'don't look down' brain 'hears ' look down'. Try not to panic' brain hears 'panic!'. Instead say look at the trees or commit to the fence and ride positively. Its the same with skiing. Don't say 'make sure you avoid hitting those trees'. Say 'focus on the gaps between the trees.

I just realised I made an error earlier, I put 'try not to' when I meant to put 'try to' , 'look up', instead of 'don't look down' would be another commonly used term

 

[spacefaer]

When I did my training we were taught to always use a positive, if a positive was not possible we had to phrase it with a positive spin, we were not allowed to use 'don't' it had to be 'try not to' or similar, there are times when you have no option such as a potentially dangerous situation that needs the riders immediate reaction but in general it is easy enough to turn negatives around, even if at times there is little to be positive about, the rider should never be made to feel useless or belittled in any way, they are paying for your time and should have your full attention.

The same when looking at someones horse, it may have numerous faults but there will be something nice you can say first, what a lovely colour/ tail/ I like your bridle, then get to the bad bits if appropriate

@be positive
We definitely trained at the same time and possibly even at the same yard in Gloucestershire!

There are definitely different approaches for different personalities - part of what I enjoy about training is finding the approach that works. I have a philosophy of instruction for both horse and rider but vary the delivery depending on who is in front of me.

I've been qualified since 1993 and still have people coming back to me, so must be doing something right!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Years back the livery yard I was on used to have an instructor come and give lessons to several of the liveries. I was told how good she was so I booked a lesson on my new and very green horse. It didn't go well as the instructor called her 'dog meat' and I decided that I would never pay her to slag of my horse again. It then turned out that the very people who told me how good the instructor was were often brought to tears every lesson they had with her. Why they had ever described her to me as 'very good' or continued to have lessons with her I have no idea.

I didn't have another lesson with her, found a new instructor and it was brilliant.

 

[eahotson]

There is a very famous instructor who my own RI went to a few times. People love her but I think she sounds horrible. Her first words to my RI were 'you'll cry by the end of the lesson. Everyone always cries'. I am sure that kind of carry on hides deep insecurity! I never understand why people pay to be humiliated no matter how good the trainer is. Maybe it's some sort of macho thing - I am dedicated and tough enough to cope with the abuse as long as my riding improves. Which is fine but just isn't necessary. No matter how good you get, you can still get better results with positive, constructive coaching I think.

There is another 'name' who my kids had a lesson with. He was just awful to them. Overfacing them, then yelling at them, then eventually telling them they were wasting their own and his time by 'not trying'. Then in front of them offered the 2 other kids in the group a discount for their next lesson because my kids had 'wasted so much time' because their ponies were refusing. Well they were refusing fences at 90+ when we had booked into a 70/80 lesson! And instead of rebuilding confidence after refusals with smaller lines, he just pointed them at bigger and bigger fences till they were in tears and their ponies would not jump anything. It was utterly appalling and I am ashamed I did not intervene. I did complain afterwards but never got a response.

I would have been livid.

 

[DrSeuss]

Recently I moved riding schools because I didn't feel as if I was progressing in my regular group lesson, just treading water. At first I felt guilty about leaving and I doubted my own judgement ("Maybe I'm not ready for anything more than this and I'm just getting to big for my boots?"). In the end I booked a couple of private lessons at a different school. That RI worked me so hard, and the lessons were definitely more challenging than what I was used to. I started going there.

I don't think there was anything wrong with my old RI's style. She was very patient, and great at helping adult riders to rebuild confidence after a long hiatus (that was me), but after a while it was no longer what I needed. I think it's all about finding an instructor or trainer whose style fits you. Unless they're obviously and outrageously rude, I try not to take it personally if there is a mismatch.

 

[hellfire]

Well done on your first attempt and giving your horse a positive experience. Personally I’d of said something as in a beginners class no way would of of made my pupils take a fast canter if they were new to the situation. Especially a young horse. Don’t be discouraged or put off just find a different instructor. I’ve taught for many years and have heard similar accounts where they have no idea of going back to basics and forget how they started themselves slowly and making sure it’s a positive experience for the horse and rider. Going at jumps like that gives the horse more reason and a chance to run out or even stop dead. Bad practice from someone holding a beginners class. I started teaching a girl of 13 last year who had been reduced to tears and the feeling of giving up because of a similar experience. She’s now doing very well and started to do some local shows last year. So the moral is find someone better you are both compatible with.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I was trained by an absolute arrogant pig of a trainer, (would be struck off today!!) but he was brilliant and because I stuck through the aggro he then became amazingly suportive and helpful. He did not want to teach those that did not try to learn. His privelege. Most people went once and moved on. That was his intention.

I think that attitude stinks. Think of all the time and money wasted by people who fail his 'can I cope with the abuse test'. What an arse!! If you want to teach robust, reslient riders who are keen to learn it is simple enough to say so. I know several trainers who choose who to teach or won't teach kids or beginners or anyone who comes a couple of times but has not done their homework in between. That's their privilege - not taking someone's money and then deliberately trying to make them not come back. Perhaps the bellend who taught my kids would also see himself as a weeder-outer of unworthy riders but it astrikes me as the laziest and easiest way to teach.

As I said upthread I think the only reason people get away with it is those who 'pass' feel good about themselves but there are better ways to achieve that! It is the 'chuck 12 eggs at a wall and the one who does not break os the one who succeeds' mentality to coaching. But the 11 broken eggs is rather a waste of eggs!!

 

[milliepops]

I think that attitude stinks. Think of all the time and money wasted by people who fail his 'can I cope with the abuse test'. What an arse!! If you want to teach robust, reslient riders who are keen to learn it is simple enough to say so.

^^ this.
I want to learn, I practice in between lessons, suck up the hard work and do my absolute best to be a good pupil. You don't need to act like a tosser to get clients like that! Seems like a huge ego trip. I have absolutely no time for people like that.

 

[Ossy2]

I think most of us have all had lessons with trainers that just weren’t for us. I prefer that type that actually get after me, push me and shout not everyone does. I used to have dressage lessons with a list 1 judge who was recommended by a number of people but all I got from them was massage egoing words like yes your looking great, yes that’s how I want it etc and we never improved I changed trainers to someone who isn’t necessarily as well known or has qualifications and they tell me exactly how it was. First thing they said was your horse is behind the leg and you don’t use your legs I have come on leaps and bounds since.

Not all trainers are for everyone, I bet if you look back at that clinic you have actually learned something even if it’s what you don’t want to do or isn’t right, take the positives and move on find a suitable instructor and do some private lessons to start with

 

[Chuffy99]

So enjoyed reading these, we went for an introduction to xc clinic with our young pony some years ago, lots of trailers and lots of us set off to the xc course. We had specifically booked to go with this instructor, so hoped we were with her - we were, among 15 others who had. We had had to hire a trailer and the cost altogether was over £100, as some had never jumped before ? they had to have so many attempts we ended up over the two hours jumping 9 tiny fences so each jump cost us a tenner! I did complain by email and was offered a half price session with a maximum of ten! horses.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I think that attitude stinks. Think of all the time and money wasted by people who fail his 'can I cope with the abuse test'. What an arse!! If you want to teach robust, reslient riders who are keen to learn it is simple enough to say so. I know several trainers who choose who to teach or won't teach kids or beginners or anyone who comes a couple of times but has not done their homework in between. That's their privilege - not taking someone's money and then deliberately trying to make them not come back. Perhaps the bellend who taught my kids would also see himself as a weeder-outer of unworthy riders but it astrikes me as the laziest and easiest way to teach.

As I said upthread I think the only reason people get away with it is those who 'pass' feel good about themselves but there are better ways to achieve that! It is the 'chuck 12 eggs at a wall and the one who does not break os the one who succeeds' mentality to coaching. But the 11 broken eggs is rather a waste of eggs!!

I cannot like this enough! I can't get on board with the idea of having to put up with someone's shit for the eventual (but not guaranteed) privilege of them....doing the job they are being paid to do?! No thank you - there are enough people out there who can assess your level of ability, and push you to develop without emotionally crushing you in the process.

In answer to OP's thread question about why instructors behave this way, I think it's a mix of ego and/or incompetence. Rather than admit they might not be the best person to help, they prefer to make the student feel rubbish instead. There is also a huge difference between be able to do something well and teach it well. I notice some people who have taken up teaching/instructing (not just in riding) but can't seem to process that it involves more than just saying 'do this, do that'.

 

[sport horse]

I think that attitude stinks. Think of all the time and money wasted by people who fail his 'can I cope with the abuse test'. What an arse!! If you want to teach robust, reslient riders who are keen to learn it is simple enough to say so. I know several trainers who choose who to teach or won't teach kids or beginners or anyone who comes a couple of times but has not done their homework in between. That's their privilege - not taking someone's money and then deliberately trying to make them not come back. Perhaps the bellend who taught my kids would also see himself as a weeder-outer of unworthy riders but it astrikes me as the laziest and easiest way to teach.

As I said upthread I think the only reason people get away with it is those who 'pass' feel good about themselves but there are better ways to achieve that! It is the 'chuck 12 eggs at a wall and the one who does not break os the one who succeeds' mentality to coaching. But the 11 broken eggs is rather a waste of eggs!!

As I said it is 'horses for courses'. Frankly I have no wish to pay good money for someone to tell me everything is great. In that case there is no point in my having training! The attitude of this trainer was what it was and he trained many top riders of that time. So much of teaching/training is the match between trainer and rider and no two people will have the same feelings.

Just move on!!!

 

[Caol Ila]

I had a PhD supervisor who would aggressively berate me for the smallest infraction (like a weak introduction on a project proposal...and weirder stuff). Critique is fair and indeed, their job, but a 15 minute angry rant about an intro by a first-year PhD student isn't. One can critique diplomatically and positively. She once explained, "This is like the military. I'm going to knock you down so I can build you up again. It will be good for you." I wasn't impressed. Um, a PhD in history isn't like the military. It just isn't. And you're a complete tw*t if you think it is. When an academic at another university offered to supervise my project, I bolted out of my first department like it was on fire.

I've had those Full Metal Jacket-style riding instructors as well -- too many, to the point where I'm leery of taking a lesson with a new trainer because I hate that sh**t. Don't get me wrong; I have had awesome trainers as well, but the overbearing arseholes stick in your mind more. There are plenty. A friend took her horse to a local clinic and the horse wasn't having his best day, and he was playing up a fair bit. The clinician's advice? "Shoot it." I asked if the clinician had helped her work through the behaviour or had said that jokingly, and she indicated that he didn't, on both counts.

 

[Ambers Echo]

It's not one or the other though is it. My RI pulls no punches and I definitely want to improve not just to have someone be pleasantly but uselessly encouraging. It is the abusive behaviour I object to, not clear and focused critical feedback.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

As I said it is 'horses for courses'. Frankly I have no wish to pay good money for someone to tell me everything is great. In that case there is no point in my having training! The attitude of this trainer was what it was and he trained many top riders of that time. So much of teaching/training is the match between trainer and rider and no two people will have the same feelings.

Just move on!!!

I think not wanting someone to berate and belittle you in the process of learning, is not the same thing as wanting someone to tell you everything is great all the time. Not criticising your choice of trainer for you but I think it's unhelpful to confuse 'not wanting to be bullied' (which is in some of the examples people describe) with 'not wanting to learn/develop'.

 

[View]

Trainers/instructors shouldn't be like this.

I do a lot of classroom training in my day job, and it's up to me to ensure that everyone leaves my classroom having enjoyed the day and learnt something.

Around horses, I specialise in beginners and riders returning after time away or injury. Again, it's up to me to make sure that people have fun and that I don't push too much or too soon. If I have a rider that spends 45 minutes in walk, so what? Did they learn something and finish with a grin on their face? Yes, then I've done my job.

I love seeing the kids pushed too hard by parents spend a few lessons with me and then pass them on to someone else for the next stage once they can canter round the school while singing Nelly the Elephant . I'll never train someone who is going to win a BE100 - but I don’t want to.

I want to pass on my love for horses and passion for horsemanship. I’m not afraid to tell parents that their child doesn’t enjoy riding and it’s the wrong sport for them at this point.

And I’ll refer people on to others when I’m no longer the right trainer - but I’ll always welcome them back for a confidence boosting session or two.

 

[Caol Ila]

It's not one or the other though is it. My RI pulls no punches and I definitely want to improve not just to have someone be pleasantly but uselessly encouraging. It is the abusive behaviour I object to, not clear and focused critical feedback.

I think not wanting someone to berate and belittle you in the process of learning, is not the same thing as wanting someone to tell you everything is great all the time. Not criticising your choice of trainer for you but I think it's unhelpful to confuse 'not wanting to be bullied' (which is in some of the examples people describe) with 'not wanting to learn/develop'.

This. No one wants a riding instructor to shower them with compliments all the time (or I hope not), but it is possible to tell someone how they can improve without sounding like a drill sergeant or bullying the ones 'who can't take it' out of your program. Don't think not wanting to put up with abuse makes someone a worse or less ambitious rider. I get that some people like the drill sergeant approach, but like SaddlePsych put very well, it isn't helpful to imply that those who don't just want to be told how great they are and not critiqued at all.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

@be positive
We definitely trained at the same time and possibly even at the same yard in Gloucestershire!

There are definitely different approaches for different personalities - part of what I enjoy about training is finding the approach that works. I have a philosophy of instruction for both horse and rider but vary the delivery depending on who is in front of me.

I've been qualified since 1993 and still have people coming back to me, so must be doing something right!

It sounds as if you both had very good training in how to teach, not just how to improve your own riding. The trouble is that many successful comp riders don't realise that teaching is a skill in itself and think that they should be able to just tell people to do what they do, when riding just isn't like that different people have different strengths and different horses have different needs. The successful teacher can see those strengths and needs and explain how to put them together successfully, in small steps..

 

[sport horse]

The OP did not have a good experience with the trainer. I hope she told them that or did she just come on here? The trainer cannot learn if they are not given feed back. They may or may not care but if enough people do not return they will either go bankrupt or change. Maybe there are enough pupils who do like their style of teaching that it does not matter? There is no right or wrong just who you like and get on with and those you do not like and get on with. It is called life.

 

[milliepops]

A friend took her horse to a local clinic and the horse wasn't having his best day, and he was playing up a fair bit. The clinician's advice? "Shoot it." I asked if the clinician had helped her work through the behaviour or had said that jokingly, and she indicated that he didn't, on both counts.

Yeah my trainer is pretty dry and might say something like that to a familiar client, and it may be a joke or it may be actual advice depending on how bad the horse was but there's knowing when a comment is appropriate and also knowing your audience (& therefore how it will be received!).

I think some people might watch bits of my lessons and think he's taking the piss... and he is, but we know each other well and it's coming from a place of utter support and also knowing I am on board with the joke I like a bit of light heartedness, it's how I learn best. Personally I respond better with a jokey style than someone simply bollocking me. if I just get bollocked then I don't feel confident enough to try stuff at home, and I do 13 out of 14 days each fortnight by myself so that is important to me.

 

[JFTDWS]

The OP did not have a good experience with the trainer. I hope she told them that or did she just come on here?

It's not the student's job to give the instructor feedback - it's the instructor's job to be self-aware, assess what they might have done better and seek CPD.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Around horses, I specialise in beginners and riders returning after time away or injury. Again, it's up to me to make sure that people have fun and that I don't push too much or too soon. If I have a rider that spends 45 minutes in walk, so what? Did they learn something and finish with a grin on their face? Yes, then I've done my job.
.

This reminds me of a lesson I had where I did want to spend my lesson in walk (I was on a really 'spooky' horse that I just did not get on with, and it had spooked and I had 'the fear' well and truly). Instructor decided to spend the remainder of the lesson telling me how much I was wasting my money just walking around - at the time I felt so rubbish but afterwards was able to say actually, no I don't need to spend my time or money with someone who is happy to speak to me that way. Now that really would be a waste of money! Now I think back and wish I could have said - "well why don't you help me get the absolute best walk I can out of this time?" (also there are lots of things that can be done just at walk, and if one of those things is helping get rid of 'the fear' I'd consider that time very well spent - I'm not trying to get to Badminton, I just want to enjoy my hobby!)

 

[Caol Ila]

Yeah my trainer is pretty dry and might say something like that to a familiar client, and it may be a joke or it may be actual advice depending on how bad the horse was but there's knowing when a comment is appropriate and also knowing your audience (& therefore how it will be received!).

I think some people might watch bits of my lessons and think he's taking the piss... and he is, but we know each other well and it's coming from a place of utter support and also knowing I am on board with the joke I like a bit of light heartedness, it's how I learn best. Personally I respond better with a jokey style than someone simply bollocking me. if I just get bollocked then I don't feel confident enough to try stuff at home, and I do 13 out of 14 days each fortnight by myself so that is important to me.

For sure. My friend was pretty bummed when I saw her after the clinic. For all I know, the the trainer was just trying to be funny but he definitely missed. I'm a fan of funny, sarcastic comments myself and have taught and have been taught with plenty of banter between instructor and student, but my friend got the impression that the trainer's comment in that case meant he didn't think her horse was worth his time. Maybe the trainer was attempting to be lighthearted about her horse playing up, but it's how you tell 'em.

 

[Marigold4]

Big difference between feedback (positive, future-focussed, helpful) and criticism (negative, past-focussed, not helpful).
Feedback: ‘try working more on xyz to build topline. Once you achieve straightness in trot by doing ... his canter will improve too. And my goodness, isn’t his trot enormous, good luck riding that!’
What you got what criticism, and that has had the predictable impact on your confidence, and is actually less likely to result in any meaningful change because there is no information in there about how to fix it.

Your instructor was not a good trainer.

Agreed. No reason was given for her chosen pace and very little instruction. She just selected jumps for us to go for.

 

[ihatework]

Yeah my trainer is pretty dry and might say something like that to a familiar client, and it may be a joke or it may be actual advice depending on how bad the horse was but there's knowing when a comment is appropriate and also knowing your audience (& therefore how it will be received!).

I think some people might watch bits of my lessons and think he's taking the piss... and he is, but we know each other well and it's coming from a place of utter support and also knowing I am on board with the joke I like a bit of light heartedness, it's how I learn best. Personally I respond better with a jokey style than someone simply bollocking me. if I just get bollocked then I don't feel confident enough to try stuff at home, and I do 13 out of 14 days each fortnight by myself so that is important to me.

Oh I miss those lessons. It’s the main thing I miss about riding!! Nothing wrong with a good dose of self-depreciating dry humour ?

 

[Marigold4]

There is a very famous instructor who my own RI went to a few times. People love her but I think she sounds horrible. Her first words to my RI were 'you'll cry by the end of the lesson. Everyone always cries'. I am sure that kind of carry on hides deep insecurity! I never understand why people pay to be humiliated no matter how good the trainer is. Maybe it's some sort of macho thing - I am dedicated and tough enough to cope with the abuse as long as my riding improves. Which is fine but just isn't necessary. No matter how good you get, you can still get better results with positive, constructive coaching I think.

There is another 'name' who my kids had a lesson with. He was just awful to them. Overfacing them, then yelling at them, then eventually telling them they were wasting their own and his time by 'not trying'. Then in front of them offered the 2 other kids in the group a discount for their next lesson because my kids had 'wasted so much time' because their ponies were refusing. Well they were refusing fences at 90+ when we had booked into a 70/80 lesson! And instead of rebuilding confidence after refusals with smaller lines, he just pointed them at bigger and bigger fences till they were in tears and their ponies would not jump anything. It was utterly appalling and I am ashamed I did not intervene. I did complain afterwards but never got a responi

I wonder if riding instructors struggle to find the words to explain themselves and what they want you to do, then shout with frustration. So they know what good riding looks like but they don't know how to explain it?

 

[be positive]

It sounds as if you both had very good training in how to teach, not just how to improve your own riding. The trouble is that many successful comp riders don't realise that teaching is a skill in itself and think that they should be able to just tell people to do what they do, when riding just isn't like that different people have different strengths and different horses have different needs. The successful teacher can see those strengths and needs and explain how to put them together successfully, in small steps..

I didn't train in Glos but we were taught to teach, our lessons were often overseen and critiqued by a schoolteacher who kept a horse at livery, I think she probably got reduced livery for spending a number of hours each week watching the lessons and giving written and verbal instruction to the students, at the time it was probably very unusual but it certainly, like much of what I learned back then, made an impact and is still there many years later, although my skill set has changed the basics have not.

 

[Marigold4]

There's nothing worse than a session with an instructor that leaves you feeling like that. I was having trouble with a very difficult horse. Cold backed. My confidence was in tatters and I booked a lesson specifically for confidence building. She made me get on in a strange arena without lunging first so I got bronced. Instructor basically verbally annihilated me whe I lay in the dirt with people watching. Told me I was ruining a good horse and crushed my confidence about a million times worse. I couldn't believe she was an instructor. She didn't offer to get on the horse to show me how to do it...

I find it so strange that they won't listen to what you know about your horse. You knew you should lunge yours first in order to keep yourself safe, but your instructor knew better. I told mine beforehand and twice in the lesson that my horse had not seen solid fences before, but it was as though she didn't believe me!