Why are some riding instructors like this?

[Chuffy99]

Fascinating reading these replies, just before lockdown I was at a local show at an equestrian centre that has a riding school attached, had a longish wait between classes sowatched and listened to the lessons going on in a decent sized arena next door
It was painful, lots of ‘kick’, use your stick, no mention of wrong leads or diagonals, a mum sitting next to me said her daughter had been riding for 3 years paying £22 for a group lesson and was starting to jump, seen in action over a 6” upright and cross pole, instructor taught them nothing. Ponies were green and unschooled and two were so nappy she had to keep chasing them (bored and had pony brains). Mum asked my opinion so I suggested as a birthday present she booked her a private lesson at **** and go from there.
We have a local instructor who lots of riders adore, they wanted to know why we had just hired the arena after them and not done the clinics, yes they’d had great fun but when asked for one thing they had learnt there was deadly silence

 

[teapot]

TP I think that sounds positive. I guess the problem is how do you get the old skoolers to do some CPD and move with the times

Yes. Quite possibly the biggest problem right there. 'Well I dont want to go to a convention, it's beneath me' is one attitude I heard from an old school I once, let alone more tailored CPD. Ok yes maybe the BHS conventions arn't for everyone, but I went to one last year, Yogi Brisener was the 'name' for the day, plus a couple of other modern fellows on subjects such as improving riding school clients, biomechanics at ALL levels and the tech etc available. My god, if you didn't come away with something that day, you were in the wrong industry.

Being on the APC list (the old register of instructors) only requires attendance at one event per year. I'd say that's not enough imho either.

Just a caveat - I have met some awful more modern types who you couldn't pay me ride with too, and the BHS still has a fair way to go. That said, given I'm in the middle of the exams system, and train where I do, I can't fault the changes the BHS have done at bringing teaching into the modern world.

 

[milliepops]

Yes. Quite possibly the biggest problem right there. 'Well I dont want to go to a convention, it's beneath me' is one attitude I heard from an old school I once, let alone more tailored CPD.

I wonder if that was my YO. who told me that he didn't learn a thing from the BD convention last year

A friend went to a local RS which also has schoolmasters. She thought she had booked onto the schoolmaster lessons which have a good reputation locally, but ended up with a "normal" lesson - I think the experience was fairly atrocious. Therefore I guess it partly depends on assumptions that have been made about clients, as much as anything else - bit of a lazy way to approach things I thought. They were fairly mortified when she pointed out the error, I gather.

 

[teapot]

I wonder if that was my YO. who told me that he didn't learn a thing from the BD convention last year

A friend went to a local RS which also has schoolmasters. She thought she had booked onto the schoolmaster lessons which have a good reputation locally, but ended up with a "normal" lesson - I think the experience was fairly atrocious. Therefore I guess it partly depends on assumptions that have been made about clients, as much as anything else - bit of a lazy way to approach things I thought. They were fairly mortified when she pointed out the error, I gather.

Nail. Head. Hit.

Assumptions about clients is a massive problem, especially from the old schoolers (in my experience). Why can't a 60 year old lady who's a bit unfit, and just wants a nice time, not get to learn how to ride shoulder in properly?


Argh don't get me started, I'll start ranting.

 

[humblepie]

I can see that it may be difficult in a clinic where an instructor has people of different levels with different aims but a good instructor will be able to work around that, with giving people gaps/breaks, watching and learning from others which is always very useful. It also takes a certain confidence to say no I am not going to do that, my horse is not ready, I am not comfortable but at the same time being prepared to perhaps challenge yourself if appropriate. I have told the tale before but years ago (think 1980s) I bought a little chestnut TB mare locally and being the naive person I am booked into a Dick Stillwell 3 day clinic. My little mare had been doing 2'6 novices at local shows for the few weeks I had had her, so she got put into the advanced class as she had competed unlike the baby horse section which hadn't. We found ourselves with a 3 day event horse and a serious show jumping prospect. And it was amazing. He worked on the areas each one needed working on, I learnt some amazing exercises, he rode my horse (the only one he rode as all the students watching opted for her as the one they wanted to see him work) and the only course we didn't do was the very last big set of fences. It has stood in my mind ever since as amazing experience and the art of good teaching. He was just as interested in us as the people he knew and the 3 day eventer unlike another pro show jumper I went to that if your horse wasn't bred by some amazing show jumping sire and destined for the Olympics you were ignored! So OP you did well to be confident enough to do what suited you and your horse rather than be forced to do something you felt was not right at the time.

 

[Marigold4]

Playing devil's advocate here: do we play a part in the failure of the teaching though. We turn up for "a" lesson and then poor instructor tries to fix our faults in the space of an hour. It's not going to be a success from either party's point of view.

How about if we were all a bit more organised in the way we learn. So we have a trial lesson with instructor, discuss what we want to achieve, he/she watches and sees what horse and rider is capable of and whether rider and instructor will be a match. THEN we commit to a 10-week course with proper written aims and objectives for each lesson with a step by step plan to achieve the goal. Homework would be set - both reading/watching videos to enhance practical understanding of that topic AND we have to commit to x number of practice sessions practising at home what has just been taught in the lesson before next lesson. An ultimate goal is set, for example compete at novice dressage or jump an 80 course of show jumps.

Even when I went to the same instructor once every 2 weeks, we'd both kind of forgotten what we did last session and one of us would have changed our minds about what we were aiming for.

I expect some instructors do this more organised teaching, but I've never come across one.

 

[Goldenstar]

I really only go to trainers who train for the long term .
I am always clear at the end of each session what I am working on for the next .
I usually have a session once a week .

 

[milliepops]

Playing devil's advocate here: do we play a part in the failure of the teaching though. We turn up for "a" lesson and then poor instructor tries to fix our faults in the space of an hour. It's not going to be a success from either party's point of view.

How about if we were all a bit more organised in the way we learn. So we have a trial lesson with instructor, discuss what we want to achieve, he/she watches and sees what horse and rider is capable of and whether rider and instructor will be a match. THEN we commit to a 10-week course with proper written aims and objectives for each lesson with a step by step plan to achieve the goal. Homework would be set - both reading/watching videos to enhance practical understanding of that topic AND we have to commit to x number of practice sessions practising at home what has just been taught in the lesson before next lesson. An ultimate goal is set, for example compete at novice dressage or jump an 80 course of show jumps.

Even when I went to the same instructor once every 2 weeks, we'd both kind of forgotten what we did last session and one of us would have changed our minds about what we were aiming for.

I expect some instructors do this more organised teaching, but I've never come across one.

I have a regular trainer who I see fortnightly, I write up my lessons just for myself so I have to think about what we've done and we also discuss stuff to work on in between- I'd ask for this if we didn't already cover it. Because I've trained with him for years its not too prescriptive but gives me plenty to be getting on with. I am happy to do independent study stuff off my own back and always had done -there is definitely a personal responsibility to be taken there.

I like one off clinics from a POV of having a different set of eyes on us and find them valuable but as an occasional add in to my normal regular training. i think dipping into loads of random lessons with different people would be pretty unproductive, you need a fair bit of continuity to make progress iMO.

 

[McFluff]

There is also the dynamic of what the rider expects to achieve and whether that is realistic.
I went to a RC clinic - polework. There were two of us in each session. I LOVED it - thought the instructor was great, brought a different perspective to how my mare was going, and I thought that both me and the other rider made huge improvements (to how we and our horses were going) by the end of the session. I went back to my trailer really happy and delighted with my wee mare. The other riders father came over and asked what I thought of the session - so I said, thought it was really useful, and thought that we were both going so much better by the end of it. His response was 'well me and X didn't think she learnt anything!'. Yet I would say that her horse was going significantly better by the end of the session than it was at the start, and he had taken her through a couple of bad habits that were blocking her (as he did for me too!). So surely she had learnt something. It was almost like she expected a golden nugget. In a shared 45 min session. Not at all realistic.

 

[shortstuff99]

I have found the issue sometimes with 'big name riders ' is that they are not used to having to train an ordinary or unusual horse. They can get a bit stuck in how to train a very talented and easily trainable horse that when they are faced with something different they are not quite sure what to do.

I've had this happen to me a couple of times now where olympic level dressage riders have told me there is nothing they can do for us (when I had some tension issues) but my old trainer (who has ridden to a decent level but mainly teaches amateurs) was able to help me, as we thought outside the box and she was used to training all different types.

 

[teapot]

Playing devil's advocate here: do we play a part in the failure of the teaching though. We turn up for "a" lesson and then poor instructor tries to fix our faults in the space of an hour. It's not going to be a success from either party's point of view.

How about if we were all a bit more organised in the way we learn. So we have a trial lesson with instructor, discuss what we want to achieve, he/she watches and sees what horse and rider is capable of and whether rider and instructor will be a match. THEN we commit to a 10-week course with proper written aims and objectives for each lesson with a step by step plan to achieve the goal. Homework would be set - both reading/watching videos to enhance practical understanding of that topic AND we have to commit to x number of practice sessions practising at home what has just been taught in the lesson before next lesson. An ultimate goal is set, for example compete at novice dressage or jump an 80 course of show jumps.

Even when I went to the same instructor once every 2 weeks, we'd both kind of forgotten what we did last session and one of us would have changed our minds about what we were aiming for.

I expect some instructors do this more organised teaching, but I've never come across one.

Mine has a coaching plan for me, across months, not weeks. We both have a long term aim, and I also write my lessons up in my own private blog, draw out any exercises I have ridden etc. It's like my own little reference guide.

As milliepops mentions you do have take an element of self responsibility when it comes to training. I dont just mean the riding either - mental state and fitness both come into this.

 

[Goldenstar]

Some big name riders are fantastic coaches , but some can’t empathise with the more usual rider with the more normal horse .
Some simply are not trained to train riders .
And some have so much outrageous talent they can’t explain easily what they do and feel .
I think there’s a gap now where not enough trainers concentrate on the rider if a trainer trains you and makes you better then every horse you ride forever goes better .
When a trainer drums the basics of training into someone week after year after then it transforms the intelligent hard working pupil .
If a trainer shows you how to get a tune out the horse you are sat that horse goes better .
The best leave you able to work every horse better .

 

[teapot]

Some big name riders are fantastic coaches , but some can’t empathise with the more usual rider with the more normal horse .
Some simply are not trained to train riders .
And some have so much outrageous talent they can’t explain easily what they do and feel .
I think there’s a gap now where not enough trainers concentrate on the rider if a trainer trains you and makes you better then every horse you ride forever goes better .
When a trainer drums the basics of training into someone week after year after then it transforms the intelligent hard working pupil .
If a trainer shows you how to get a tune out the horse you are sat that horse goes better .
The best leave you able to work every horse better .

Agree 100% with this.

Problem is, there are some riders who care more about the height they jump, or fancy lateral work, instead of considering for even a minute how poor their canter is, or how badly they're sat on a horse.

 

[daffy44]

Really interesting thread. Humblepie, I was lucky enough to have some lessons with Dick Stillwell when I was a teenager, and he was outstanding, I've been very lucky in my life to have had some amazing trainers, and Dick was one of the very best.

I think finding the right trainer is essential to progress, enjoyment and everything else, but the rider must take some responsibility as well. Firstly, check the trainers credentials (adverts lie), just because your friend loves a certain trainer, it doesnt mean you will too, yes the trainer should try to adapt to the riders learning style, but apart from that all trainers have their individual style, and that style wont suit everyone. The simplest thing to do (and I never understand why more riders dont do it), is once you have a trainer that you are interested in, ask if you can go and sit in on a lesson and watch, that will tell you so much, and potentially save you and your horse a bad experience.

I am always mildly amused at all the lists of qualities people require from their trainer, but rarely turn the same focus on what qualities make a good student.

 

[humblepie]

Really interesting thread. Humblepie, I was lucky enough to have some lessons with Dick Stillwell when I was a teenager, and he was outstanding, I've been very lucky in my life to have had some amazing trainers, and Dick was one of the very best.

Yes absolutely fabulous trainer. He came up to us at a show about 3 months later and chatted, I am not sure he knew who we were but presumably recognised the horse/me and it was nice he took the time out to speak.

 

[View]

Many years ago, my trainer attended a 3 day clinic with Dick Stillwill and took me as her groom (she took 2 horses) - parents were happy for me to miss school.

He spent time with all of us grooms, and made sure that we were also involved and learnt. Such subtle suggestions but big differences in how the horses went.

Yogi Breisner at the BHS coaching convention last year - what is the silence telling you?

I enjoy watching others and picking up some points. Artur Kottas "invite your partner" (the horse) to work with you.

So much simplicity and sense.

 

[Courbette]

There are. Anyone who's doing or been through the new exam system will know them. The old AIs/ITT holders wouldn't know what's hit them when it comes to what's required now. The system has changed, the mental and coaching sides have improved and anyone worth their salt at coaching/teaching/instructing/whatever you want to call it, would be very aware of the changes/what's required of modern day teaching in the sport. Too many people cling to the old school view of shout, belittle, and my way or no way.

I'm taught by/ride with a I/Stage 5 coach who I am sure at some point will go for the fellowship and it'll be well deserved. She is fabulous. My biggest battle is my mind and she's there every single step of the way helping me out, helping me find a way through. She's also there with many sarcastic comments if I need one (to anyone watching it would sound horrific!). She knows how to reward when my brain's on side. Best of all she knows when to give me the arse kickings, and how to say them. Perception of what a client needs/wants is the difference between a good coach and great one.


That said, finding that level of coach requires effort, maybe traveling a distance, especially if you're want to ride more advanced horses, or learn more advanced movements. Your average riding school across the board might not have enough clients on their books to warrant having a horse schooled to medium for example, nor be able to afford to pay coaches experienced/qualified enough to teach with it so the best ability of the horse's. Don't go slagging off the industry without acknowledging the practicalities of being in the business.

I have traveled to ride advanced horses and paid the accompanying hike in fees but the question was why so many people fail to achieve. I was lucky I was in a position to do that at the time but many people aren't. I question the BHS system as I've been to many riding schools over the years, either as a client or to watch friends and some of the things I've seen have been shocking. I've walked away from more than one lesson and have had a lesson myself where I was taught by a livery who had no teaching qualifications at all. I have also been told absolute rubbish about something as simple as feeling the correct diagonal. I had an instructor ask me how I always got the correct one without looking and when I tried to explain how I felt which hind leg was off the ground she dismissed this as being too difficult. I've watched my 5 year old cousins first canter lesson and she was told to sit and kick, she couldn't even trot properly and often fell off. She has now given up after her confidence was knocked as she was never taught to sit properly. While she was being taught a small boy had a pony napping to the gate in the next school and was repeatedly told to kick harder (while the ponies head was in the corner) and was then chased with a lunge whip. Nothing about using the reins or picking a different bit of the school until he re-established some control. I can only speak as to my experiences and they often haven't been very good.

I'm sure there are some fantastic riding schools and BHS instructors and I know there are definitely ever increasing financial pressures BUT surely some of the bigger schools could make more of an effort. So many places are advertised as providing 'dressage' lessons and being suitable for advanced riders but the actual lessons don't offer anything beyond the very basics and often even the basics are poor. This is what I meant by bench marks, it would help if to advertise as being for certain levels you had to meet some criteria (such as having a horse at medium) and provide an incentive for the riding schools that are able too to up their game.

 

[SJJR]

Question for people who take regular, or even just occasional, lessons: Why do you think that so few people actually do progress to higher levels of horse sports?

I don't aspire to get to higher levels, I have horses because I enjoy their company and it is my relaxation and a way of life. I do however want to be the best rider I can be in terms of being an effective rider and not a burden. I read and have lots of video's of classical riding and on my own try to translate what I have read/seen. I have had lessons from a German instructor who rode beautifully; effortlessly, effectively and totally in tune with her horses. During the lessons she berated the standard of teaching in this country and quite simply I did not progress and I felt increasingly frustrated and that it was a chore. With hindsight she wasn't an effective teacher for me, beautiful rider but not a good instructor for my learning type. I then had lessons from a BHS instructor who I really liked but I spent my time translating her instructions and replacing with what I had read in my books to interpret what she was saying. This was tiring and pointless. I then moved to a different BHS instructor and bingo. She frequently ask 'how does that feel', 'do you know what you did differently there', 'why do you think that happened' she does say I over think but it is how I process and retain information. Simply put we communicate well, she gives me the tools I need and will hop on my horse or get me to have a lesson on hers. This is the most recent 3 instructors there have been others. All have said I am a nice rider with a good seat but only the current one added on 1st lesson 'but you are not effective'. I could have hugged her as I know this and this is what I had been asking instructors for years. For me to learn I need communication, trust and to build a rapport so the instructor knows when to push.

 

[teapot]

I'm sure there are some fantastic riding schools and BHS instructors and I know there are definitely ever increasing financial pressures BUT surely some of the bigger schools could make more of an effort. So many places are advertised as providing 'dressage' lessons and being suitable for advanced riders but the actual lessons don't offer anything beyond the very basics and often even the basics are poor. This is what I meant by bench marks, it would help if to advertise as being for certain levels you had to meet some criteria (such as having a horse at medium) and provide an incentive for the riding schools that are able too to up their game.

Oh so like a rating system within the approvals? I like that idea! However, the where to train centres already have thorough inspections, seperate to the normal approvals one. Must have x horses able to jump x height to be Stage 3, Stage 4, Stage 5; must have x number of coaches at certain levels etc. How well it is implemented is another matter.

 

[Marigold4]

I don't aspire to get to higher levels, I have horses because I enjoy their company and it is my relaxation and a way of life. I do however want to be the best rider I can be in terms of being an effective rider and not a burden. I read and have lots of video's of classical riding and on my own try to translate what I have read/seen. I have had lessons from a German instructor who rode beautifully; effortlessly, effectively and totally in tune with her horses. During the lessons she berated the standard of teaching in this country and quite simply I did not progress and I felt increasingly frustrated and that it was a chore. With hindsight she wasn't an effective teacher for me, beautiful rider but not a good instructor for my learning type. I then had lessons from a BHS instructor who I really liked but I spent my time translating her instructions and replacing with what I had read in my books to interpret what she was saying. This was tiring and pointless. I then moved to a different BHS instructor and bingo. She frequently ask 'how does that feel', 'do you know what you did differently there', 'why do you think that happened' she does say I over think but it is how I process and retain information. Simply put we communicate well, she gives me the tools I need and will hop on my horse or get me to have a lesson on hers. This is the most recent 3 instructors there have been others. All have said I am a nice rider with a good seat but only the current one added on 1st lesson 'but you are not effective'. I could have hugged her as I know this and this is what I had been asking instructors for years. For me to learn I need communication, trust and to
build a rapport so the instructor knows when to push.

You sound just exactly like me! And your latest instructor exactly what I need. Can you clone her please and send her down south please?

 

[little_critter]

Just to add, watching that video I’m so pleased to hear him say that not all xc horses are brave, some are just very honest. I’d say my horse is not at all brave, but wants to do the right thing. We’ve not tried xc yet but this gives me hope that xc could be something we progress with. I plan to improve our jumping over the summer then try some xc in late summer / early autumn.

 

[Cowpony]

Many years ago our group at the riding school had just gone up a level when our instructor couldn't make the lesson, so the school brought in a replacement for that week. She may have thought we were more advanced than we were. Without any instructions she told us to ride a 3 loop serpentine. We had never ridden one before but vaguely knew it was a sort of S shape. Now, as everybody knows, a serpentine is 3 half circles joined by straight lines from one side of the arena to the other, at 90 degrees to the long sides. Except that we were novices and didn't.

So we set off and almost immediately got shouted at. "That's not straight!" So we tried harder to ride very straight between the turns. " That's not straight! " Eventually the rider at the front was unceremoniously shunted to the back and the next lead file had a go. "That's not straight!" So she went to the back. That left me as lead file and I got shouted at too. The second time she shouted "That's not straight across the school! " and I'd had enough so shouted back "You can't ride straight across the school from H to B!"

Lightbulb moment for the instructor and she realised what she should have spotted 15 minutes earlier - we genuinely didn't know how to ride it. So she finally explained what to do as if we were adults (we were) and guess what? We did it right!

Whenever I'm told there is a replacement instructor I now ask who it is before I book.