Why is winter turnout not a thing!?

[scats]

I think a lot of yards suffer from lack of land, or YO choose to have more horses on their yards than their land can actually cope with so fields get overgrazed and poached and have no chance of lasting the winter.
There’s not many yards with winter turnout where I am, due to poor land (mostly clay) and far too many horses. I am extremely fortunate to be on a yard with probably the best grazing and turnout in the whole area. But we achieve this by having far more land than needed for the horses, which we can rotate and manage well, plus horses are turned out in pairs so don’t trash the ground around gateways and troughs.
Our YO leaves us to it, but we are careful and respect her land. If the weather is absolutely horrific in winter, we will turn out for just a few hours, or we will bring in early. We fence off any areas that look to be getting muddy and we move around fields to allow them to recover.

 

[Frumpoon]

Because the wholesale answer to lack of affordable housing is to build more houses, making development land worth £1m an acre, rather than legislation that a person can't own more than one property

 

[Michen]

IMO there is nothing wrong with stabling a horse all winter as long as it has sufficient exercise. And by that I don’t mean a 45 min schooling session once a day.

Most yards/owners don’t achieve this, and then it becomes a welfare issue. If you spent any time with horses on the continent you would see the majority of horses stabled all winter.

As a country we are obsessed with turnout, and personally I don’t consider shoving a horse in knee high mud for it to stand miserable for an hour a day as any more beneficial than not turning out at all.

 

[splashgirl45]

i was lucky with my last 2 yards as we were given our own fields for the winter and the only condition was they came in at night which i refer as i used to ride daily so i could at least get her clean in the morning as she was dry. the last YO provided other fields a short walk away that we used for 24/7 turnout during the summer while our field was rested and any maintenance done, like weed spraying, levelling and fertilising if necessary...we are on clay but the fields recovered pretty well each year...

 

[Dexter]

We have good turnout, unlimited in the summer and all day in the winter if its wet, otherwise they can stay out. My 2yr old is still on youngstock livery and will be till he's 3.5yrs old. Most livery yards are not suitable for youngsters no matter how much turnout they have.

 

[Buster2020]

IMO there is nothing wrong with stabling a horse all winter as long as it has sufficient exercise. And by that I don’t mean a 45 min schooling session once a day.

Most yards/owners don’t achieve this, and then it becomes a welfare issue. If you spent any time with horses on the continent you would see the majority of horses stabled all winter.

As a country we are obsessed with turnout, and personally I don’t consider shoving a horse in knee high mud for it to stand miserable for an hour a day as any more beneficial than not turning out at all.

Op horse is a 2 year old so she cannot just go ride the horse for 2 hours a day. Plus even for a older horse exercise is just not enough horses are social animals they need time to actually be a horse not just used for our enjoyment. If fields were probably managed horses would not be standing in knee high mud. There is plenty of countries that have worse winter than the uk and winter stabling is not the norm .

 

[Arzada]

Winter turnout is still a thing. If it's something that you really want for your horse, as I do, then you will find it.

 

[Frumpoon]

We have good turnout, unlimited in the summer and all day in the winter if its wet, otherwise they can stay out. My 2yr old is still on youngstock livery and will be till he's 3.5yrs old. Most livery yards are not suitable for youngsters no matter how much turnout they have.

That's a good point

Op where in the country are you, perhaps we can recommend a stud local to you

 

[Michen]

Op horse is a 2 year old so she cannot just go ride the horse for 2 hours a day. Plus even for a older horse exercise is just not enough horses are social animals they need time to actually be a horse not just used for our enjoyment. If fields were probably managed horses would not be standing in knee high mud. There is plenty of countries that have worse winter than the uk and winter stabling is not the norm .

I wasn’t referring to OPs horse actually, just winter turnout in general for horses who are able to work.

Am not sure why a 2yo would be on livery anyway unless youngstock with a herd.

 

[Boulty]

I like my horse to have decent winter t/o. This severely limits yard choices in my area as a lot of soil is clay which is a nightmare in winter & lots of yards have the upper limit of the no of horses their land can cope with. I also need good, secure fencing that is not electric tape & some support due to weird work hours. I also need herd turnout not individual. (That's before we start on things like hacking)

Other than actual track liveries I have found one yard who have invested in surfaced winter turnout areas (still in quite small areas & for not as long a time as I'd like but better than no turnout or mud pits) & another with limited turnout in winter but small outdoor pens on the back of the stables. Neither of these options quite fulfilled what I wanted but gives hope that some yards whose grazing doesn't handle wet weather well are looking at alternatives to 24/7 stabling.

 

[maggiestar]

I worked on a yard as a groom with no winter turnout. All I can say is I didn't stay long because it felt more like a jailer's job.
The poor animals were kept inside their cells all day except for the odd social hour in the indoor school or when their owners turned up to ride them. Horrible practice, horrible place.
There were many mental health problems among the horses and three of them were regular escape artists. Good for them.
I'd think hard about the ethics of keeping a horse if it had no ability to express natural behaviour. It makes me so sad.

 

[Gingerwitch]

PSD, you're similar area to me and basically it's a lack of land combined with poor draining clay that does it. You either need a hill somewhere to turnout on to and accept that you'll have to hike to see your horse have 0 facilities, and (if you're like me a 9-5) maybe not see it daily in winter. The alternative is what you describe currently.
For a 2 year old, I'd be going up m61 - the ground is better there generally and some nice yards up there.
As the land is clay and theres not a lot to go round, yards want to preserve summer grazing - nobody wants to have horses in for 12 hours all year round. Also, tbh where you have a trash paddock in winter anything generally out for an hour spends most of the time hanging out at the gate waiting to come in, or possibly squabbling over hay if theres any out.

See if I had to choose between out every day for 12 ISH hours or out all summer and in all winter I would have the 12 hours ISH a day. To me that is a routine that's do able for owners and horse s.

 

[asmp]

I used to keep a pony at a yard in Germany where they were kept in over the winter BUT most of them had small yards attached to each stable so they could stand outside if they wanted. There was also a Horse walker and a sand paddock. (Plus the indoor school and two outdoor schools - it sounds expensive but it wasn’t! We owned a 12.1 hacking pony)

 

[HashRouge]

We have our own land, 23 acres of clay split into three. 3 acres, 6 acres and 14 acres. It is very wet land despite being on the side of a hill. My sister's two ponies are strip grazed on the 6 acres and last winter we had a mare and foal on the 14 acres along with about 40 sheep. The mess the mare and foal made had to be seen to be believed. It is still very rutted because the weather never gave us a chance to get it rolled. We don't have stables so no way we can get the horses off the land. The 3 acre top field with a barn is saved for lambing. I was stunned at the difference just adding the mare and foal made. We used to have more horses and the land did get badly poached but I think the field is wetter now. Clay is a nightmare.

To be fair, sheep will also poach land and it was a very wet winter. I've never known such a bad one!

 

[meleeka]

I used to keep a pony at a yard in Germany where they were kept in over the winter BUT most of them had small yards attached to each stable so they could stand outside if they wanted. There was also a Horse walker and a sand paddock. (Plus the indoor school and two outdoor schools - it sounds expensive but it wasn’t! We owned a 12.1 hacking pony)

Pens attached to stables seems to be much more common in Europe. I’ve had mine on a similar arrangement and it does make a difference imo. I think lack of yards has meant more horses in the available space here. Certainly where I live there are a fraction of the yards there were 20 years ago.

I have laid a hard standing area which is really useful and means mine are mostly free range. In previous years they got to choose whether to be in stables, Hard standing or field but last winter were banned from the field for some of the time. It’s tricky having oldies because they really need movement to keep their joints comfortable.

 

[PSD]

I’d be happy with a few hours a day like some of you have. It just doesn’t seem all that common where I am, I have 2 yards as options. One lady I’ll be speaking to shortly, she’s very local. Complete DIY yard, can have my own grass paddock if required, 24/7 turnout in summer and every other day in winter. Sand paddock for riding and all weather surfaced paddock for turning out/loose schooling. Good off road hacking, very quiet yard with small amount of liveries on - sounds absolutely perfect as I hate big yards!

there’s also another I mentioned but it is a trip up the motorway and I’m not overly sure if I could make that work but it could.

seems i have been looking in all the wrong places!

 

[Errin Paddywack]

To be fair, sheep will also poach land and it was a very wet winter. I've never known such a bad one!

They do indeed but have tiny feet which do not go as deep or leave big holes. They also tend to flatten out the ground as it starts to dry as there are a lot of them. The areas the sheep poached badly (round feed blocks etc) have now recovered, smoothed out and grass back whereas the hoof prints are still deep and make the land hard to walk over. There are no easy answers when you have clay.

 

[FourLeafClover]

For a ridden horse, I think that would be *okay*. Not great, but commonly done. Increases the likelihood of developing ulcers/stable vices and injuries (repetitive from box walking/weaving and from excitement when let out for those 20 minutes).

As your concern seems to be largely around the effects that moving again in a year or two would have on your horse, I would consider that actually the effects of a young, playful, herd animal being kept in a 12x12 box for potentially 4 months would be far worse due to the above. It would be nicest for you to get settled at a yard where you will be long term - you will likely benefit from the social side. Your horse will suffer ?

Personally, I would be findingyoung stock grass livery for the next year or two and reassess. Maybe taking on a ridden share horse or having schoolmaster lessons alongside ?

 

[PSD]

For a ridden horse, I think that would be *okay*. Not great, but commonly done. Increases the likelihood of developing ulcers/stable vices and injuries (repetitive from box walking/weaving and from excitement when let out for those 20 minutes).

As your concern seems to be largely around the effects that moving again in a year or two would have on your horse, I would consider that actually the effects of a young, playful, herd animal being kept in a 12x12 box for potentially 4 months would be far worse due to the above. It would be nicest for you to get settled at a yard where you will be long term - you will likely benefit from the social side. Your horse will suffer ?

Personally, I would be findingyoung stock grass livery for the next year or two and reassess. Maybe taking on a ridden share horse or having schoolmaster lessons alongside ?

I do have a couple of potential yards to look at that have good turnout in winter - seems I just wasn’t looking hard enough! One is swaying me more than the other as it has a youngstock herd.

unfortunately taking on another horse isn’t a financial option for me though, as lovely as that would be!

 

[PSD]

Okay so one of the potential yards has been ruled out - yard owner was lovely but it just wasn’t my kind of place. (The smaller yard with alternative daily winter turnout).

I have one more that has a vacancy, cheaper than where I am and daily winter turnout in herd with youngsters. I’m hoping this one has a good feel to it when I go for a look, it’s local too - 12 minute drive away! All bedding and forage on sight made by the farm so that’s handy too. Livery services available too! Seems to be very suitable.

 

[GinaGeo]

Fingers crossed

 

[Mule]

It's because they destroy the land. It's the reason farmers keep cattle in during he winter. Unless you have a very dry field you will need to roll the land in the spring if you leave horses on it over winter.

 

[sport horse]

I have my own horses - no liveries. Last winter I had 4 youngsters on a 17 acre hillside field until 2nd January when they came in. The damage they did during that very wet autumn is unbelievable. Despite having my own machinery and thus able to get out and work the fields as soon as possible I am still trying to rectify the damage.

It is a fact that our climate is changing and that is making farming more difficult. Land prices are also very high especially in the home counties. With livery at current prices the profit margins are tiny and that is why people are trying to cram more horses into smaller spaces. If you all want turnout throughout the year you will have to accept it will cost more and not just a little bit more - a lot more.

 

[FourLeafClover]

I think if I ventured into providing livery I would like to do it on an Equicentral/track system. If there was a hard standing track around the edge of the field, horses could stay out in the winter without trashing the land. I know that’s not the rationale behind the track mindset per se but I think it would make the benefits of a track more understandable/accessible to the general mainstream owner used to stabling/having to keep in during the wet months. One day...

 

[HelenBack]

Okay so one of the potential yards has been ruled out - yard owner was lovely but it just wasn’t my kind of place. (The smaller yard with alternative daily winter turnout).

I have one more that has a vacancy, cheaper than where I am and daily winter turnout in herd with youngsters. I’m hoping this one has a good feel to it when I go for a look, it’s local too - 12 minute drive away! All bedding and forage on sight made by the farm so that’s handy too. Livery services available too! Seems to be very suitable.

That one sounds promising, I hope you get sorted. It's a real pain when you can't find anything suitable nearby so I really do feel your frustration.

I think if I ventured into providing livery I would like to do it on an Equicentral/track system. If there was a hard standing track around the edge of the field, horses could stay out in the winter without trashing the land. I know that’s not the rationale behind the track mindset per se but I think it would make the benefits of a track more understandable/accessible to the general mainstream owner used to stabling/having to keep in during the wet months. One day...

This is what annoys me actually. I'd love a track/ equicentral system for my horse for all the usual benefits that are outlined, but I can't see why more yard owners don't see the benefit to them too as it would actually enable them to have more horses in a smaller space without getting their land ruined. Win for both the yard owner and the horses and their owners! I think there is a gap to be bridged here because the track systems are generally seen by a lot of people at the moment as being a bit leftfield but actually they could be hugely beneficial for pretty much all horses give the way the climate is going. My yard owner looked at me like I'd grown an extra head when I suggested the idea though!

 

[Tiddlypom]

A good all year round surfaced track system is rather spendy to set up from scratch and costly to maintain, but if people will pay an appropriate level of livery, I do reckon they will become more common.

I have set up an equicentral system here again for the summer, it works well, but it would become a bottomless bog if I tried to do it all year round.

 

[Goldenstar]

For Young horses turnout is essential and Op will have to move her youngster to find it if she wants a healthy individual at maturity .
The winters are wetter land is in tighter and tighter supply it’s not a good situation .
I am about to buy another 3.75 acres I have three horses the land is clay I will have nearly sixteen acres of grass to manage three on and it still will be a mess in winter .
that Extra field will just give me more wiggle room in spring .
however I am incredibly respectful of my soil to have my own land was my dream the thought of selling it on and it not being cared for makes me feel almost as bad as the thought of my horses in that situation .
It’s hard for yard owners the market does really give enough money to buy enough and care for it properly .

 

[NinjaPony]

Honestly it’s a nightmare. It’s one thing when you have your own land, and can do what you want/put in all weather turnout. It’s another when you are reliant on a livery yard. It’s also different when your horse is in ridden work. I would never keep mine anywhere where they didn’t go out every day during winter, with an exception for storms. Now, both are retired and one has severe COPD so limited turnout is really not an option. It’s been a total nightmare having to find a new yard to move to that can accommodate this! I’m going to see a scruffy DIY yard that has said they can do as much turnout as I want, so I would only have to keep in for the day/night if it was really wet. So I’m desperate for it to work out!!
I agree with others that herd young stock turnout would be the best you can do for now.

 

[HelenBack]

A good all year round surfaced track system is rather spendy to set up from scratch and costly to maintain, but if people will pay an appropriate level of livery, I do reckon they will become more common.

I have set up an equicentral system here again for the summer, it works well, but it would become a bottomless bog if I tried to do it all year round.

I think this the crux of the problem isn't it? I'd quite happily pay much more than I do now for the right set up but I know not everybody can afford that or feels that they should pay extra. It would be good to see them catch on and become a but more mainstream though, although I think at the moment there are as many horse owners that don't see the benefit as there are yard owners.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

We face the same problems here. If horses are on the fields during the winter they get destroyed. However, I do know of some horses on fields 24/7 365 and their grass comes back just fine every year. However, it is normally only a few horses, and on hilly land so perhaps it drains well.

We have all weather paddocks at the yard, and these are becoming slightly more common. They did theirs on a budget using old road (when the tear up a road, you can take the old crushed up stuff - makes a gravel surface of sorts), renting a roller, and acquiring old astroturf from a local football club that was replacing theirs. The paddocks were already there, just dirt before.

The problem is that it takes money, and many don't want to spend or cannot spend. I do think people would pay more for daily winter turnout though. That and no one pays attention to drainage when they build, especially when they DIY it, so a lot of yards become mud pits.

I think it is awful to keep horses in stables during the winter and not exercised regularly/daily. If mine is limited to his stable, he does have a very small paddock to atleast get fresh air and a view. He also goes in the walker in the morning during the winter, and I ride or otherwise work him him in the afternoon. He handles changes in management pretty well. He'll live out, he'll live in, he'll alternate...he handles it better than me