why the hell are people still breeding

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wowser

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horses and ponies, (not people that's another thread) at the moment they end up selling or giving them away.
its just sad they arn't thinking of the future welfare of the animal last week i saw a pregnant mare for £80.00, plus two youngsters so i don't know the circumstances, and none of us know what next week month or year hold for us. it just pisses me off.
 
Me too. Same goes for people who's moggys have kittens every year or breeding mongrel pups. Anything there's no market for.
 
i've ended up with a BOGOF :confused: pony had been a broodmare when i got her and assured there was no way she could be expecting again:mad::mad: but lo and behold she is!! luckily we are able to accomodate another and have no plans to sell,but it does annoy me as there are so many unwanted horses and ponies out there already. Have told jess this is the last time she'll be in foal:D:D
I agree theres not a great market for the average pony or horse at the mo, same with everything-people just don't have the spare cash to buy or keep them so some are being sold at ridiculous prices:rolleyes:
 
I think it depends what you are breeding. There is always a market for good quailty horses. Which is why I think breeding licences and grading of all stallions and mares should be brought in. That way it would not be cheap to breed a horse, and hopefully better quailty horses will be bred.
 
dominobrown said:
I think it depends what you are breeding. There is always a market for good quailty horses. Which is why I think breeding licences and grading of all stallions and mares should be brought in. That way it would not be cheap to breed a horse, and hopefully better quailty horses will be bred.
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Totally agree - same with dogs.
 
Depends on what you're breeding I guess. You should have some clue about Market value.

Here is my rule of thumb. If I can't forsee myself being able to make a 5 year commitment from conception then I don't breed. And my mare's kids are finally out doing decent things. I had my last 2 foals in 2010. I still have the 2yo filly and the colt sold as soon as weaned without trying to sell. Well known good producers who will have the horse out doing things when he's ready. Not pushed to do so. That's beneficial to me.

At any rate I like to start them myself and have them out a little bit before selling. This way they should end up with decent homes and a productive life. I have no plans to sell my 2yo. She is part of the family! Plus she's out of a mare I really like that I don't have anymore. I have a young mare I will breed one day when she's popped around her 1.30's.

Quality and performance sell. So do try and remember there are some of us who do try and think it through. I am not breeding again this year because I'm in the process of sorting everyone(and me) out to go back home to the States. Not a time to be bringing a 5 year commitment into the fray! 5 is enough!

Terri
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
Depends on what you're breeding I guess. You should have some clue about Market value.

Here is my rule of thumb. If I can't forsee myself being able to make a 5 year commitment from conception then I don't breed. And my mare's kids are finally out doing decent things. I had my last 2 foals in 2010. I still have the 2yo filly and the colt sold as soon as weaned without trying to sell. Well known good producers who will have the horse out doing things when he's ready. Not pushed to do so. That's beneficial to me.

At any rate I like to start them myself and have them out a little bit before selling. This way they should end up with decent homes and a productive life. I have no plans to sell my 2yo. She is part of the family! Plus she's out of a mare I really like that I don't have anymore. I have a young mare I will breed one day when she's popped around her 1.30's.

Quality and performance sell. So do try and remember there are some of us who do try and think it through. I am not breeding again this year because I'm in the process of sorting everyone(and me) out to go back home to the States. Not a time to be bringing a 5 year commitment into the fray! 5 is enough!

Terri
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Nothing like knowing your market. Unfortunately, lots of horses are bred every year here no one wants. Leads to all sorts of welfare problems, always the horses that suffer.
 
I agree with stallion grading/ licensing etc, but i also think people should consider that not everyone can afford to pay a lot of money for horses, neither do they need a horse that is worth a lot of money. A happy, safe hacker could set you back around £1500 but if we start making it really expensive to breed then these horses will not be this price and horse riding will return to being a snobs sport for the well off. But I do strongly agree people should not be breeding willy nilly, there is no market and the poor things (quite a lot of the time) end up having the crappiest of lives and then end up with the meat man.
 
You see it a lot with new forests and shetlands, people think they are going to make a quick buck, and with horses there isn't really one to be made. I think there are also a lot of horses out there, who have been bred to perform at a high level, that are really professionals horses, that don't make the grade, or end up with an over horsed owner early on, and this is also a problem. I would consider breeding from both my horses, but the offspring would be for me, and not for commercial purposes, because both of mine tick enough of my boxes, and have done the job I want future horses to do, which is important.
 
wattamus said:
I agree with stallion grading/ licensing etc, but i also think people should consider that not everyone can afford to pay a lot of money for horses, neither do they need a horse that is worth a lot of money. A happy, safe hacker could set you back around £1500 but if we start making it really expensive to breed then these horses will not be this price and horse riding will return to being a snobs sport for the well off. But I do strongly agree people should not be breeding willy nilly, there is no market and the poor things (quite a lot of the time) end up having the crappiest of lives and then end up with the meat man.
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Completely agree with this.
 
I know it's the horses that suffer. But people go far and wide to get what they want. So if all the responsible people stopped breeding, people will go to another country to find quality. They still won't give their money to back yard Bob for a yak capable of doing nothing very well. And if I'm looking for a specific type of horse I'm not settling for just anything because I have to mop up the mistakes of idiots as well as line their pockets.

I despise breeders who have fire sales to "make room for this year's crop." People who thought a big fancy stallion would make up for the bad mare. But for a while these types of horses sold as soon as the hit the ground in the good times. Breeders who complain about having to spend money to have the horse started because it's already cost them 3 or 4 years money to keep said horse. They expect everyone to pay them made money for a prospect.

The reality is everyone needs to think a little more before breeding. Like I said, I DON'T breed unless I can make at least a 5 year commitment to a newborn financially and getting them out there. It's a huge gamble. But that's the reality.

The one mare I have has made me very good money and has earned a home with me for life if she never has another foal.

Terri
 
There's a big difference to me between breeding correctly, whether that's on a smaller scale or a big stud yard with a market for the horses & sticking anything with a uterus in foal. Many professionals have told me my 14.2 should have been bred from & I agree, would have done too but wanted to ride her & then finances & later an injury meant it wasn't to happen.
I've also been told by several fools that when daughter outgrows her pony I should 'stick it in foal'. She's 11.1, unregistered, (mini x we think nf) & definitely a second pony type, not remotely suitable as a lr or first ridden. Will be 7 or 8 when outgrown so won't have a long standing history of being a fab kids pony. Lovely looking, nice confo & a very bombproof & confident attitude. But still completely stupid to breed from her unless I wanted another v small pony myself. Scary thing is how many people would.
 
Its amazing the amount of people who buy a mare because if anything happens they can put it in foal! Regardless of whether or not it is suitable. I'm hopeful that now embryo transfer is becoming more used, some of these mares will carry better stock on behalf of other mares. The racing industry now has so many less horses being bred due to the change in economic climate.
 
if only more people were as responsible as you Terri!:) I would hope that the 'professional' breeders are looking ahead and gauging the market before they put mares in foal at the moment.
sadly some still think its a good way to make money or 'just love the cute ickle foals':rolleyes: I know dragon driving isn't the best example of well bred animals but you only have to look on there and see how many foals and youngsters are being sold for less than £100 to realise that the bottom has fallen out of the market. There just aren't enough homes for all the foals being bred and until the economy picks up it's only going to get worse not better.
There was a post on the FB group i'm on about the dartmoor hill ponies needing 'rescueing' again, while i understand how awful it is to see young animals being shot i think the rescuers need to look at how they are encouraging the farmers to keep churning out these ponies, by finding buyers for them the farmers know that they will always manage to make some income of these ponies:( to me those types of 'breeders' are no better than puppy farmers:(
 
dominobrown said:
I think it depends what you are breeding. There is always a market for good quailty horses. Which is why I think breeding licences and grading of all stallions and mares should be brought in. That way it would not be cheap to breed a horse, and hopefully better quailty horses will be bred.
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At the moment even well bred youngsters aren't selling. If you can't sell them as foals you then have to keep them until they are 3 yr old to even break even. I think if breeders cut back and left some mares empty thus reducing the numbers of horses being bred then maybe prices would rise again.
 
Foals by graded stallions and out of good mares still arent quarenteed to sell - which is why we bred our last foal 4 yrs ago. Unlike the poster who thinks you should be able to buy a horse fro £1500 , it costs small breeders more than this to get a 3 yr old ready to be backed. Then add backing costs , and the riding on for another year, before a decent price can be expected.Only horses which are ready to 'do' are worth anything.
Cheaply bred animals - like the 200 cobs owned by 1 person near us - most of which are foaling again and flooding market even more- are a false economy .Why? Well, the sires are of dubious quality and conformation, and may not be great in temperemant or health , ditto the mares. Many small scale breeders are giving up , so where will the nice 3 yr olds come from? You re going to be left with high price AI foals with pedigrees as long as [ but not necessarily good to ride etc] from the big studs in Europe , or these poorly bred 'Heinz 57' horses and ponies. IMHO there should be a concerted effort to stop ungraded colts/stallions mating, and they shouldnt be able to advertise on the stallion websites either!
 
OP - that's a question I often ask myself re my YO, who seems to think that if you breed using a coloured stallion, you're going to make money even if the mare is a Nobody.

Last year's (coloured) foal is still unsold and two more have been born this year.

Ludicrous!
 
Whilst I agree that people should not breed horses willy nilly,I don't think that breeding should be restricted to high quality expensive animals either.

As someone else said many of us (in fact most of us I'm guessing),do not need a well bred performance horse that costs a small fortune.

A nice tempered cob or native cross can make the best happy hacker or low level all rounder,where would people find those types is all breeding was limited and made prohibitively expensive??

I appreciate the need to breed quality,but just think that can mean different things to different people,and would be a real shame to make the horse world 'exclusive' again by pricing many of us out of the market with high end animals.

Does do my head in that so many people breed small ponies though,much less of a market especially when young (most people don't buy an unbroken youngster for a young child),and see more of them than anything at the sales near me,selling for a pittance.

Also agree with those who said anyone who breeds should be prepared to hang onto it until it's of an age to start it's education and/or find a decent home.
 
I breed, on average, one foal every two years and this way I can commit to keeping them forever or at least until they are doing something useful.

I am not aiming to produce top competition horses, the cast offs from this market are rarely suitable for the averarage rider, but nice well bred medium sized horses that can turn a hoof to most things.

I do despair of people who bulk breed without an established market
 
devonlass said:
Whilst I agree that people should not breed horses willy nilly,I don't think that breeding should be restricted to high quality expensive animals either.

As someone else said many of us (in fact most of us I'm guessing),do not need a well bred performance horse that costs a small fortune.

A nice tempered cob or native cross can make the best happy hacker or low level all rounder,where would people find those types is all breeding was limited and made prohibitively expensive??

I appreciate the need to breed quality,but just think that can mean different things to different people,and would be a real shame to make the horse world 'exclusive' again by pricing many of us out of the market with high end animals.

Does do my head in that so many people breed small ponies though,much less of a market especially when young (most people don't buy an unbroken youngster for a young child),and see more of them than anything at the sales near me,selling for a pittance.

Also agree with those who said anyone who breeds should be prepared to hang onto it until it's of an age to start it's education and/or find a decent home.
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Totally agree...imagine in 20years if all that could be brought was 5k plus horses, what would all the happy hackers, companion owners and local riders do? Be totally pushed out of a hobby we enjoy and manage to give an horse a very happy loving life. That's a very sad thought :(

Excuse me....Unlike the poster who thinks you should be able to buy a horse fro £1500 ??? There is nothing wrong with this at all!!! I know plenty of great horse brought for this price and less which give their owners endless pleasure and live incredibly happy lives themselves!

Although i totally agree with the reason for this post, far too many mares in foal, youngsters looking for homes, Owners should look at why they are breeding and is their a gap in the market for their new arrival not just sticking any old mare in foal. Terri seems to have the process spot on :D
 
What a narrow question.

I started breeding 4 years ago now. I breed (1-2 a year) because

1. I love it
2. I have tons on land
3. I can afford to
4. I have top class mares (and spend proper money on top class stallions).

My eldest is 3 now. Despite all the above she is cow hocked (very). BUT she will be sent away, broken by the best yard I can find, competed in Dressage and SJ before being returned to me. I will potter around doing endurance and 70cm etc before spending all the time I need to find her a forever home. Same for the rest of them. I'll lose thousands over the 6 years (in her case anyway) but for me its so worth it. It isn't people like me that shouldn't breed, its the muppets who breed 10's of ponies/horses from mares like (for example) my 3 year old who I would NEVER breed from. It is a hobby yes and a damned expensive one. I have a full time job and do part time accounts from home to subsidise it.

Long winded but that's why I'm still breeding. I don't think we should all be tarred with the same brush and suspect the numbers concerned fall into insignificance compared with racing - and before we start that argument, not everyone could ride an ex-racehorse (or would want to) but I'm pretty sure I could put my granny on my ex Clover Hill x Quirifino Quainton 2 year old! Awesome temprement!
 
People breed for many different reasons, few of them supportable in a rational argument. I gave up breeding 20 years ago as it did not make economic sense and there were too many horses for too few competant homes (I owned a commercial warmblood stud with 20+ graded broodmares and several graded stallions). For the last few years I stopped standing athletic competition stallions and instead bred for "prettiness" and bombproof temperament as that was what the market required. In the end I gave up as I could buy horses in from other hobby breeder farcheaper than breeding my own stock. PLEASE DO NOT BREED unless you A. want to keep it yourself, or B. have a definate market for your stock.
 
As with others, please remember that not all breeders are doing do irresponsibly.
We have 8 in utero and one on the ground for this season, but unlike some breeders we only use mares with proven competition records plus ace conformation and pedigrees. It's the 'breeders' (in the loosest sense of the word) who will chuck any injured mare at any stallion and think a profit is in the offing that need to be stopped. :cool:

We keep many of ours until they are 3 and send them up to our partnered operation where they are backed and ridden away by a **** event rider before either she keeps them to event, or they are sold, largely through word of mouth.
 
Like to add that when I say my horses are doing things, the first gelding schools 1.30m for fun, wins Dressage comps, wins hunter trials, and will be eventing this year with his not pro rider. Doesn't mean she isn't very good but my horses are not bred under the heading, "pro ride only". A proper horse that means you can have a good day out.

The other one, I own, is a SJ. But her career is on hold while I focusing on getting home. I'm sure she could do other things but I like SJ. She is safe to hack on her own, gallop in fields with all hell breaking loose and would never dare buck or rear or anything dirty. Not in her nature. Very solid under saddle. I feel safe on her at all times. But yet can get herself out of trouble to a jump older horses can't do. So a little something extra as well. She will have no problems doing 1.30's.

If people want to say well I breed pro rides fair enough. But many of the best bred horses in the world don't have the talent for the higher ends. So best to make sure the horse can be something other than the "pro ride" you're sure will make you big bucks!

Terri
 
It is highly irritating!! It's all 'oh let's have a foal, they're cute and we can sell it for loads'.. when in reality they spend more having and keeping the foal then they do selling it.
 
devonlass said:
Whilst I agree that people should not breed horses willy nilly,I don't think that breeding should be restricted to high quality expensive animals either.

As someone else said many of us (in fact most of us I'm guessing),do not need a well bred performance horse that costs a small fortune.

A nice tempered cob or native cross can make the best happy hacker or low level all rounder,where would people find those types is all breeding was limited and made prohibitively expensive??

I appreciate the need to breed quality,but just think that can mean different things to different people,and would be a real shame to make the horse world 'exclusive' again by pricing many of us out of the market with high end animals.

Does do my head in that so many people breed small ponies though,much less of a market especially when young (most people don't buy an unbroken youngster for a young child),and see more of them than anything at the sales near me,selling for a pittance.

Also agree with those who said anyone who breeds should be prepared to hang onto it until it's of an age to start it's education and/or find a decent home.
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you can have a decent cross out of a quality stallion though, and those horses needn't cost a fortune.

Did anyone see how many NF stallions failed the grading this year? The NF people are really getting tight on what passes, and those that do pass go on to sire some lovely x sports type ponies, with knowledgeable breeders. Granted, the pures will fetch big money for future breeding and the show ring but the crosses out of good stallions will only fetch a few hundred ... and many are still correctly bred.
 
theres some really good answers on here!

i'd just like to say myself, i dont breed, but i am interested in this topic. as many others have said, people shouldnt be breeding heinz 57s and should be prepared to keep them instead of flogging them at the local sales.
what i hate is 'we're putting her in foal to calm her down'. thats the thing that bugs me the most

i disagree with people saying that we should just have purebreds/graded stallions etc.. i think what we should have is horses only being bred with the correct confirmation. we cant breed top class horses for a riding school. nothing would be rideable. i, myself know the difference between a riding club horse and a competition horse.
 
Not all cobs and happy hackers have horrendous conformation!

There's a big gap between your "quality" competition horse and the indiscriminately bred nags that no one wants! And that gap is filled by ordinary horses!

There seems to be a little bit of a "if it isn't a warmblood or a sports horse with a pedigree as long as your arm it's no good" going on. There are plenty of natives and native crosses that have good temperaments to be leisure horses but are far from being dross that no one wants!

And, FWIW, there are plenty of well-bred horses out there with conformation-related lameness issues!
 
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