Wierd young horse problem

JanetGeorge

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I may well regret posting this here - but it's so desperate I'll take the risk in the hope SOMEONE has an idea we haven't tried.

Sir John is 3 - hell, no, he's officially 4! He has been a nervous **** since before he was gelded. Absolutely NO reason for it. I know his mother, and his grandmother VERY well. I know his father well - and have had dozens by him, and grandfather even better! We backed his full sister 6 months ago - she's a kid's pony.

When I say 'nervous', most of the time he can't be caught in the stable without feed - sometimes he won't even come to feed. He has shown signs of nervous aggression. (Got me with both barrels when I was leaving the stable after 20 minutes of quiet talking to him!)

I tried him on Bromide (on vet suggestion) and for a few weeks he appeared to be getting a BIT better - then a standstill. Now I'm trying chelated calcium - it's a last resort. To make matters worse, he's currently on oral antibiotics as the only possible treatment for an abcess in a hind foot.

If I come to the decision to put him down (and I'm VERY close) I'll have to get the guy over from the safari park with a dart gun to trank him first - that's how bad he is. It breaks my heart - he's a good looking young horse and everything says he should be a sweetie - not a nut case. He hasn't actually deteriorated in the past 12 months, which makes brain tumour unlikely.

Does anyone have ANY idea of what it could be - or what I could try??

I AM trying to organise thermal imaging to see if we can isolate a point of pain.
 

rachk89

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What are you feeding him? Might have something to do with that but it's a long shot. He could be allergic to something and it's causing this reaction as he doesn't understand.

It could be something messed in his head from birth. Did he have another owner before you and could they have done something to him? Horses aren't born scared unless it's been taught or neurological.

Could be his back, could be muscular pain, could be a skeletal problem. I think to diagnose this multiple x rays and scans are required I am afraid and that will cost a lot. It's whether you think it's worth it but if he was never abused and he isn't in pain then my guess is its the brain and you can never repair a brain, human or animal. Brains have no repairing abilities only diversion. I am sorry but if that's the case I would put him down even though he is young. He is in distress and not enjoying life. Sorry you have to make that decision though.
 

nicelittle

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Well Janetgeorge. I have to say that I regard you as a very experienced horse person, and if you are asking for advice you must have tried and considered everything.
That's not much help, but I guess I want to say if you think he needs to be PTS, I would think that you might be right.
Wishing you luck
 

stormox

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I firmly believe you can get 'rogue' horses that dont necessarily have bad genes, or bad upbringing. Just the same as you get human criminals with perfectly good parents and education.
 

kinnygirl1

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Eyesight? We had one on my old yard who became nervous and difficult to catch in her stable...turned she had gone blind virtually overnight they think due to a bang on the head or a neurological problem. Sadly she was pts tho.
 

Ladyinred

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Is this the same youngster you nearly had PTS some months ago but gave him a last minute reprieve? If so, then I think you have to put your own and your staff's safety first and, sadly, have him PTS. We all know the depth of your experience and,tbh, If you can't find a solution then I doubt anyone else could.
 

rachk89

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Eyesight? We had one on my old yard who became nervous and difficult to catch in her stable...turned she had gone blind virtually overnight they think due to a bang on the head or a neurological problem. Sadly she was pts tho.

Ah I didn't think of that would make sense though. Could even just be one eye that is blind or its just limited sight in both.
 

Asha

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Is this the same youngster you nearly had PTS some months ago but gave him a last minute reprieve? If so, then I think you have to put your own and your staff's safety first and, sadly, have him PTS. We all know the depth of your experience and,tbh, If you can't find a solution then I doubt anyone else could.

This ^^^

Not an easy decision , Feel for you.
 

PorkChop

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Well Janetgeorge. I have to say that I regard you as a very experienced horse person, and if you are asking for advice you must have tried and considered everything.
That's not much help, but I guess I want to say if you think he needs to be PTS, I would think that you might be right.
Wishing you luck

Completely this, I would hope you find the cause but if you don't, my sympathies x
 

only_me

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Eyesight?

Or is it worth trying to get a blood sample and testing to see if he's low in anything. Maybe selenium deficiency?
 

Orangehorse

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You are a very experienced horse person who probably knows more than most of us on the DG!

I had a friend in a similar situation with a home-bred horse that was always correctly handled, well broken, etc. etc. that she had to have PTS in the end although it broke her heart. She had probably got a bit further with hers, as it was broken in, but it was putting her and her staff at risk. With hindsight and with looking at videos of it as a foal/youngster, she thinks there was a pain issue that started fairly early, but despite lots of investigations she wasn't able to find the issue, and in the end decided that she could not risk anyone getting hurt.

If you feel you have explored everything, and the horse is a danger, then it is a shame but if he is an unhappy chap, then PTS may be the only solution. There was a guy, a "healer" who would do "whole body scans" but I don't know if he is still around. I know that he was able to help vets in some cases.
 

The Fuzzy Furry

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Janet, the only thing I can think of is some poss trauma to top of head/neck, poss interfering every time he moves? Had similar in a homebred, only found out when a PM was done at Potters Bar as a 3 yr old.
That said, you've given this chap every go, it sounds like you dont have much more to try.
All I can do is wish you all the best x
 

Possum

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Could be hormonal potentially? Any chance there was an issue with the castration and he's now showing the rig-type unpredictability of unregulated testosterone? I know you said it started before he was gelded but if there was some sort of abnormality it might explain why gelding him hasn't improved matters?

Otherwise the only thing I can think of is either that something's sending his adrenal gland haywire so he's permanently fight-or-flight, or some sort of non-degenerative neurological issue, either from birth or eg a cyst that you wouldn't necessarily expect to continue to grow and worsen symptoms?

You have my sympathies.
 

JillA

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Chelated calcium?? To me that is contra indicated - mine was like that when he was deficient in magnesium, he was the most difficult horse to back and ride away, he was permanently running on adrenaline. Magnesium oxide transformed him in a couple of weeks, but calcium cancels out the balance of whatever magnesium he does get from grazing or forage, so has the potential to make it worse. They recommended calcium to me without even assessing whether he was getting adequate levels (as it happens my forage analysis and soil analysis shows very high levels) and it was money entirely wasted, I really don't understand the rationale for it. Magnesium apparently blocks the over production of adrenaline, hence the running on adrenaline scenario, but calcium would counteract that.
(I have to say I was very experienced, not to the same degree but 40 years breeding a foal most years, and it stumped me to begin with, until I read a discussion on magox. We never stop learning do we!)
If you have tried magnesium without any calcium and that hasn't helped, can Sarah Braithwaite suggest anything. Or Jenny Paterson from Calm Healthy Horses (http://calmhealthyhorses.com/index.html), she is always willing to help if you email her
 

BBP

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It doesn't sound quite the same but my little horse has always been a highly strung panicky horse for no reason that I can tell. He will freak out over absolutely nothing, even though he has never had a bad experience with me (I however have had plenty of bad experiences with him!) I've had him since he was 3, he's now 10, and I'm only just starting to get some answers. He has always tested with high muscle enzymes in his blood, this year I had a biopsy done and he has been diagnosed with recurrent exertional rhabdomyolysis. I believe it causes him pain and is also the cause of his highly strung, unpredictable nature. Stress or excitement cause his cells to release calcium differently to other horses, the calcium then fills the receptors that should be open to magnesium to relax the muscle fibre so he physically can't relax easily once stressed. I've seen him tie up once but looking back it could have been happening without me knowing. He also has gastric ulcers, a sacroiliac field injury and I'm thinking of having his back x rayed. Liver problems can also cause aggression and strange behaviour. I've had mines head CT scanned in the last year as his behaviour was so bizarre, that was all fine. So I think his muscle disease is responsible for more than I might be aware of.

Just an idea as doesn't sound just like mine.

I should add, the calcium issue is thought to be completely independent of dietary intake, feeding more magnesium did nothing for him.
 

moorhillhorses

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I would treat him for everything that's suggested above. Including ulcers . Rule everything out. It will be expensive but you might regret never giving him the chance. Blood test for allergies and treat that foot will he is sedated. Maybe get one of those natural horse man ship guys in todo join up . Worked with a very very nervous horse we had! I would suggest comfort gut in his feed as well its a great tummy settler. I've seen horses change quite a bit on it x
 

Goldenstar

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I bred one like this out of a mare we had owned from a youngster and a stallion I had others by but from a different mare .
She was an issue from day one it's a long story but it ended when she attacked me when I was gently grooming her she must have got me with a fore leg and I came round outside the box I must have got my self out and shut the door, I was happily wearing a crash cap.
I went and sat in the school and cried I thought out every senario everybody who might what to take her on ( and there are always people who will have a go with a free nicely made horse whose was the perfect type people want ) .
She showed aggression from an early age nothing bad ever happened to her I followed my gut feeling and PTS .
It still haunts me a bit .
It felt like a huge failure .
 

MyBoyChe

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Janet, I agree with the poster who said that as a very experienced and, I would add, rational and sensible horse person, if you are asking for help and are on the verge of PTS, then it may well be that you really have run out of options and pts is the safest and responsible thing to do. The only things I can think are eyes or ears, blindness or deafness issues maybe. The only other thing, and Im clutching at straws as have no experience and not even sure if its probable, but maybe something missed at gelding time, is it possible that he still retains too many male hormones and these are causing havoc with his temperament.
 

paddy555

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I had a similar one that was dangerous, one broken ankle and I wouldn't dream of going into the field without the tractor between me and him. I cannot begin to remember the times he went over me. Leading out i hand was impossible. He just got worse and worse and he shouldn't have. His parents were lovely and there was no reason why this horse shouldn't have been the same. I cannot being to count the number to times he stood up at me when asked to do something. Lunging was with 2 reins if I wanted to live!

I considered PTS many times but I was lucky as no one else had to deal with him.

It took me many years to find the solution purely by chance. He is now rideable, easy to handle in the stable, I can push him around with no headcollar, lead by his mane, all those sorts of things we take for granted.

His extreme spookiness and aggression was due to pain. The pain was due to muscle pain. The muscle pain was due to vitamin E deficiency. When I resolved the problem I had the beginnings of a different horse within days.
His is now 6 months down the road, easy to deal with, can be safely led around the roads yet before I couldn't even lead him out of the gate he was that bad. Ridingwise most of the fear and spookiness has gone. Far from being horrible and aggressive he is the sweetest chap and loves a cuddle.

You can blood test for low vit e level however it is just as quick to test it and work on evidence based results. In your position I would feed 12000iu split into 2 lots per day of natural vit E oil (I am assuming this is a big irish draught type) Mine got 10000iu and was around 500kg.
If you wanted to eliminate this it would take a couple of weeks to start seeing results and would cost around £50 for equimins nat vit E oil. I started to see results in days, just a little nicer, more friendly, gradually less spookier and happier to be handled. The positive results just continued and we built on them.

I was very close to PTS with him as I could see no future where he wouldn't be dangerous. It was purely by chance I stumbled on the solution.
 

Slightlyconfused

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Janet, I agree with the poster who said that as a very experienced and, I would add, rational and sensible horse person, if you are asking for help and are on the verge of PTS, then it may well be that you really have run out of options and pts is the safest and responsible thing to do. The only things I can think are eyes or ears, blindness or deafness issues maybe. The only other thing, and Im clutching at straws as have no experience and not even sure if its probable, but maybe something missed at gelding time, is it possible that he still retains too many male hormones and these are causing havoc with his temperament.

Agree with this.
Xx
 

Fools Motto

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Agree with those who comment on the fact that you janet, are one of the most experienced and well respected posters on this forum. I fear there is little extra advice that hasn't been mentioned. However, if you state this 'started' since he was gelded, could it be something to do with that area of his anatomy? I don't know if there is anything that can be done, RigCalm perhaps?
I also know, that if our instincts keep coming back to PTS, then it is usually sadly the case. Safety first for all those who handle him, and if that can't be done...
Thinking of you.

ETS, re-read, since before he was gelded? maybe the rigcalm isn't such a great idea as I doubt it will change him.
Maybe think outside the box, get a hair sample and a spiritual reader??
 
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Wheels

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Somethings making me think it could be something to do with the head, teeth problem maybe or nerve damage somewhere.

I might get xrays / scans of the head and teeth and if nothing showed up there call it a day.
 

Alec Swan

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Bearing in mind your level of experience, then sadly I believe that you're clutching at straws. At the age of four years and having no point which could direct you to a likely cause, I suspect that you have only one option. Even considering that there may be an external cause which has brought about this problem, I suspect that a 'cure' is beyond the wit of man. Sorry, I wish that I could give you hope.

Alec.
 

JanetGeorge

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Thank you all SO much - there are a few ideas there! (Some positive, some not so - but all equally valued.)

Had a 2nd day today of putting him throughthe stocks that are in the same barn as his stable. That involves opening the door, shooing him out, then positioning helpers so the entrance to the stocks is the only practical route. Hedid it better today than yesterday - food also involved. I'm not yet prepared to try shutting him in - which we'd have to do to make thermal imaging practical.

To answer a few questions: his feeding is very simple. As much haylage as he'll eat, and a SMALL quantity of non-heating coarse mix and Grazon - with added minerals and vits. No chance it's eyesight - his is brilliant! And no chance it's testosterone - I was there at the castration and both testicles came out cleanly.

Sedating isn't an option (without the guy at the Safari Park with a dart gun!) Giving him Sedalin wouldn't work either - you can't get a syringe in his mouth even when he's going through a catchable phase (he's had his wormer in his feed.)

And yes - this is the same one I was considering PTS a couple of months ago - but he then improved enough to give me hope. The nervousness was first noted at weaning - but didn't raise great concern then - they are all a bit different at this stressful time.

Ulcers are about the only thing thing that I think MIGHT be a problem we could do something about - and that will start as quick as I can get the right medication. And hopefully we'll get him to the stage where a thermal imaging scan MIGHT stand a chance of showing us the area of the problem - although if it's anywhere near his brain ......
 

be positive

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No additional suggestions other than regarding sedation, I had a pony that was impossible to get a syringe near, he was not easy for the vet either so in order to make things less stressful I was given acp tablets to give prior to veterinary treatment when required, I think they are no longer approved for equines for some reason, they were put in his feed and knocked him out fairly successfully, if your vet could give you some it would be worth trying and certainly easier than a dart gun.
 
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