Wintec cair panels as hard as rocks

Wagtail

Wagtail

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Well I finally go my new isabell saddle a few days ago (brand new but old model). My horse is quite quirky and one of his hang ups is saddles. In fact, I have only just got him chilled out in his old wintec (flocked) saddle. He has no back problems all checked by vet and physio and the old wintec recently checked by the saddler. I think the hang up is a result of some nasty past experience. Anyway, I bought the isabell because more forward cut saddles tipped to the left due to his right shoulder being slightly more developed than his left.

When I placed his new saddle gently on his back and he visibly flinched. He got that worried look in his eyes. I thought it was just as it was a strange saddle and so I started to slowly girth it up and he just freaked out in the stable. Managed to get the saddle off him and the next day decided to saddle him in the arena. Got the same reaction. Rearing etc.

Today I tried him again and he was better so I rode f a few minutes but he felt as though he might explode any minute and bolt. He was tolerating it rather than liking it. I always use a merino sheepskin due to his sensitivity but noticed how hard the cair panels were even through this. After untacking him I placed my arm in the gullet (again through the sheepskin) and the panels felt like concrete! Poor horse. It was no wonder he reacted that way. I've decided to get the cair panels replaced by wool flocking as I really love the design of the saddle, but can't believe these saddles are on the market. Or do I have a faulty one? :confused:
 
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Spot_the_Risk said:
My saddler showed me the difference between Cair and flocked Wintecs, and explained that the Cair were always hard and didn't mould to the horse, it made perfect sense.
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I now need to find a saddler in south Lincs/east leicestershire area that will take out the panels fo me. Anyone know of any and how much it will cost?
 
Shouldn't take long, the existing panels are held together with velcro on the top of the panel that sits up under the tree, it's a simple matter of undoing a few set screws, dropping the panel out, undoing the velcro , taking out the gel/air pads and foam, re doing the velcro up, make some flocking holes in lightly flock up,then put panel back in and fully flock to fit the horse onsite, simples!
About 1 hours worth of labour max for any saddler worth his/her salt or that's what I would charge in labour including the flocking, Oz :)
 
nikkimariet said:
Have heard more horrible things about Cair than good..... Me and sister both have Bates Innova saddles and have had both of them reflocked and Cair removed.

Try Milners-
http://www.smilnerandson.com/saddlery.html

They have done both ours and are our master saddlers, fab people. Costs roughly £150.
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Thanks. I'll try them. I was hoping for something around the £100 mark though.
 
unicornleather said:
Shouldn't take long, the existing panels are held together with velcro on the top of the panel that sits up under the tree, it's a simple matter of undoing a few set screws, dropping the panel out, undoing the velcro , taking out the gel/air pads and foam, re doing the velcro up, make some flocking holes in lightly flock up,then put panel back in and fully flock to fit the horse onsite, simples!
About 1 hours worth of labour max for any saddler worth his/her salt or that's what I would charge in labour including the flocking, Oz :)
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Wow. Thanks for that. Very useful information!
 
A client of mine attempted to use wintec 500 with cair to use on newly backed horse, he freaked.
Told her to go back to her 'manky old saddle' as it was far better!

Do not like them at all, whoever thought that would be a good idea, well...

Hope you get it sorted!
 
If I were to do one (I have added foam inside them to shim them up a bit when they went flat that's how I know what's inside and how easy it is to dismantle them) I would charge the job as a complete re flock which I charge £57.50 for but I insist on seeing it on the horse and fitting it before it was converted to make sure it fitted properly and flocking up on site after the conversion all for that price so I am 100% happy it is right for the horse, which I can only do for local riders of course, hope this gives you a price guide, Oz :)
 
unicornleather said:
If I were to do one (I have added foam inside them to shim them up a bit when they went flat that's how I know what's inside and how easy it is to dismantle them) I would charge the job as a complete re flock which I charge £57.50 for but I insist on seeing it on the horse and fitting it before it was converted to make sure it fitted properly and flocking up on site after the conversion all for that price so I am 100% happy it is right for the horse, which I can only do for local riders of course, hope this gives you a price guide, Oz :)
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I will shop around then to make sure I'm not ripped off. Don't mind paying around £100 for a good job. Shame you're not local. Thanks again for the guide.
 
Interesting because I have the old wintec DR cair and my horse goes well in it. I tried him in a friends IW cair and he absolutely loved it, shame my bonus didn't materialize or I would have bought it
 
To go against the grain here - I think a lot of people have heard unsubstantiated rumours about cair and have jumped on the band wagon !

I have had 4 saddles with cair in and never had a problem, I have had worse problems with traditional flocking balling up and being uneven as you are reliant on the skill of the saddler.

The wintec material is quite hard, and the cair pocket is covered in foam, therefore when its not that warm people say the panels are hard. This is when the cair bags are actually more squishy, but the wintec material is less pliant
 
Jen_Cots said:
To go against the grain here - I think a lot of people have heard unsubstantiated rumours about cair and have jumped on the band wagon !

I have had 4 saddles with cair in and never had a problem, I have had worse problems with traditional flocking balling up and being uneven as you are reliant on the skill of the saddler.

The wintec material is quite hard, and the cair pocket is covered in foam, therefore when its not that warm people say the panels are hard. This is when the cair bags are actually more squishy, but the wintec material is less pliant
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You took the words right out of my mouth! I too have 4 saddles here with Cair, and I've just been poking and prodding them and I don't think they're particularly hard, but I do agree about the material not being that pliant.

In fact, having just gone back and prodded two Wintec 2000s at the same time, one in each hand :D, one with Cair and one with flock, I think that I'd rather have the Cair one on my back if I were a horse.

My horse is really happy in his Cair Wintec 2000 anyway, and it sits lovely on him :)

However, if your horse is telling you a different story, then obviously you need to listen to him. Might it be something else about the fit other than the Cair?
 
I wonder if the hardness problem is only with some of the saddles then, because I too have heard people say how soft they are. But mine really is like concrete. I have taken it to a local saddler who will change it to wool flocking for around £50. I was quoted almost £200 by Milners to come and fit it. I have no doubt they would do an excellent job but £200 on top of the £600 I paid for it will really not sit well with hubby! I am pretty good at fitting saddles myself and my boy is so sensitive with saddles I have no doubt he would tell me immediately if it didn't fit.
 
I have a Wintec 2000 dressage with flock and a GP Bates with cair and my horse goes lovely in both, the Cair one isn't at all hard. Air bags filled enough to fit my horse correctly. I have a valve in it so it can be adjusted with the shape of the horse.
 
You are half right, you can adjust cair to a certain degree, not the bags themselves and they should never be over filled but occasionally the foam that is in with them goes flat, the result is a flat panel possibly pressing on the spine in a nutcracker action.To "adjust" them you take out the old foam and insert new foam which has the same effect as flocking up a flocked saddle.
You can use the same technique to pure foam or felt panels too like in some racing saddles and in very old side saddles that can't take the strain of being flocked up, you can slide a insert of foam or a handful of flock up under the tree on top of the panel.
Oz :)
 
I had a Bates vsd saddle with cair and it caused problems with my horses back within a week. It was awful. Luckily my saddler took it back and I have ended up with a Thorowgood high wither GP which I love and suits my horse brilliantly because of how adjustable it is.

My saddler said they perform very well in tests too.

I would never go for Cair again.
 
I think I would be dead if I persevered with that saddle and did not try it on my forearm first. Because knowing my boy, he would have panicked and bolted if I shifted in the saddle and caused the hard panels to hit his spine. They were just like concrete wrapped in equileather. Some horses are more forgiving and will end up with a bad back. My horse would just freak and it could be extremely dangerous. I'm surprised they haven't been withdrawn. It seems incredible that there could be some that are so hard and others so soft. Where is the quality control?
 
Because they are called CAIR and if you care for your horse you will get one! :rolleyes:

Clever marketing? :confused:

The saddler that actually fitted a saddle to my mare (that actually fitted her), had no time for them.
 
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