with all this talk of bitless riding...

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clairel

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I was wondering if anyone has had a horse who just refused to accept a bit? or if it is a case of searching until you find something suitable?

The reason I ask is because my young horse has taken a total dislike to everything I try him in.
He was broken in a eggbutt snaffle and much preferred a heavy bit to a light one. He has since moved into a loose ring with lozenge which he liked for a few months. Our latest attempt is a happy mouth eggbutt but I still find him fussy in the contact.

So I guess what I am getting at is, do some horses never fully accept a bit and does anyone have any tips or advice for this sort of thing?
 
How old is he?

I tried my youngster in several different types of bit before we settled on the one we use now, it can take a while to get the right shape, right mouthpiece, right cheekpieces & fit all that around teething & teaching the horse how to yield to pressure etc.

What was bitting process you went through? Did you do any in-hand work etc.?
 
I've known a couple of youngsters who were fussy for the first year or so - ill be honest I don't panic about it. Constantly changing bits is worse I think. I just stick with something simple like a German silver lozenge eggbutt, that will warm up a bit and is nice and gentle, and ride in a soft contact without worrying about the head.

If really struggling, worth chatting to a bitting expert, they can be fab, however mostly time and patience in my opinion.
 
Erm, am I the only person who just uses a simple snaffle and trains the horse to accept it? Progressing eventually to a double, etc? I can honestly say that there are only 3 bits that I use, either a "normal" snaffle or a 3-link lozenge snaffle, then a double/curb (my horses all go in a curb bit for "work" - they are film/demo horses). If the horse has a problem in it's mouth I get a dentist or improve my hands.
 
Cortez said:
Erm, am I the only person who just uses a simple snaffle and trains the horse to accept it? Progressing eventually to a double, etc? I can honestly say that there are only 3 bits that I use, either a "normal" snaffle or a 3-link lozenge snaffle, then a double/curb (my horses all go in a curb bit for "work" - they are film/demo horses). If the horse has a problem in it's mouth I get a dentist or improve my hands.
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If starting from scratch then yes, I agree. Current one I have in a lozenge snaffle for flatwork but have had to resort to a waterford full cheek for jumping as he just takes hold - ex P2P so its old habits. Getting there now and have about 75% control, but sometimes he just sticks his head down and goes and I'm not strong enough to sit in and pull him up when he does it, and the waterford helps there without needing to use poll pressure.

I will usually bit up for XC as well, I do keep a gag around as my old horse did get a bit enthusiastic XC, but current one has been perfect XC in the waterford so haven't needed it. However I only own one snaffle and have used it on all five of mine so far...
 
Cortez I agree to an extent - however, my lad goes beautifully in an eggbutt, but gets really tetchy in his mouth if I try him in a loose ring. So it does make a difference, and I'll do anything to make my life easier!! When I first bought him he didn't accept any contact at all and would threaten to rear, so it was teaching him acceptance to an extent, but he definitely prefers certain bits.

OP, what's his mouth conformation like?
 
He is 5 and was broken at the start of this year. He is really ready to get on with things now but the bitting is stopping that.
It all started because he curls his tongue up, even when standing in the stable as soon as you put bit in he pulls his tongue back but never tries to get it over the bit. Everyone said to shut his mouth, but he is so light and mannerly when ridden I didn't want to.
So the thought process was that the single joint was pinching his tongue, put him into lozenge, went beautifully for around 2 months then began to be a little argumentative, especially downwards trans, and especially walk to halt. Had teeth rechecked and all other usual things looked at again. All fine so tried a happy mouth eggbutt. Again was going really nicely, could even xc in it but soon he started arguing. All in all I have tried a few other unsuccessfully.
Dentist has said that mouth conformation is normal and he doesn't have a particularly fleshy tongue etc but I believe it is the feeling of the bit on his tongue that he hates.

Would love to get something he is happy in rather than just tolerates as he is such a kind horse and when he is happy in his mouth gives his all. It is hard to describe but I feel almost as if he can not concentrate when there is a bit he doesn't like in his mouth.
Does that sound a bit silly and fluffy?
 
I did try him briefly in a thinner metal snaffle but found he wouldn't take the contact forward.

Think I would be best to give up any ideas of eventing him and happy hack in a head collar!

That is what prompted me to think that maybe some horses can just never get used to having a bit in their mouths.
 
I did also try him in a myler dressage bit which he spat out immediately and he is currently trialling a bomber happy tongue, which although not dressage legal sounded ideal.
He doesn't hate it but is quite heavy in the contact despite my best efforts.

I have always been able to ride all my others in some variation of a simple snaffle so all these options are rather overwhelming!
 
clairel said:
I did also try him in a myler dressage bit which he spat out immediately and he is currently trialling a bomber happy tongue, which although not dressage legal sounded ideal.
He doesn't hate it but is quite heavy in the contact despite my best efforts.

I have always been able to ride all my others in some variation of a simple snaffle so all these options are rather overwhelming!
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Heavy contact better than head tossing. You can school him to be lighter, at least he isn't objecting.
 
Worth a try certainly.
Although maybe I didn't explain myself very well. He doesn't throw his head around just becomes impossibly heavy. I believe he sets his tongue and opens mouth when he doesn't like the pressure of the bit
 
Remember that they have a mouth full of teeth to change. I was told that in Spain they only ride young horses bitless until they have all their mature teeth before they put in a bit.

I do know a horse that wouldn't accept a bit, ever, and it meant that the owner found that she was excluded from nearly all the classes that she would have liked to enter and ended up doing endurance as that was the only discipline she could do (apart from show jumping, which she didn't want to do anyway). Don't know if anything has changed since then.
 
I would hesitantly agree that there are some horses that find anything in their mouth simply not negotiable (short term at least). Many years ago I rode a young horse with similar issues, we jumped so it wasn't a problem to ride him in a hackamore at shows (which he didn't mind and worked well in) but as the owner wanted him bitted I also rode him in a "normal bridle". He hated it. I was about 16 at a time so I could have had hands that needed decent training still but I do recall having similar thoughts to you about him not being able to focus on the task when ridden with a bit.
I do think now that with some horses the first experience of the bit is crucial to how they will accept it further as a balance aid and not something we have control over when we buy horses started by someone else.

You might be lucky and the rules change in which case you could compete him bitless :)

Another thing to try might be to find the bit he least objects to (when bridle is put on) and then ride him off the headcollar with the bit in but unused. This way you will be able to determine how much of his behaviour is to do with lack of tolerance of the bit itself and how much of the action of the bit...
 
I can't comment to the OP's horse because I think that's the sort of thing you have to see/sit on to advise with any confidence.

Over all, I think any healthy horse can be taught to go confidently and quietly into the contact. I do think, however, if it goes too wrong then it may be difficult/impossible to fix completely. I'm also not a fan of a million funky bits, chopping and changing, although I don't think I would go so far as to say every horse should be able to do every job well in the exact same bit.

That all said, I know of a few lines that consistently throw up horses that are tricky in their mouths so I don't think every horse is a blank slate. I know a stallion that jumped in a hackamore and the three of his progeny I know (admittedly not much of a sample but all with different people) are/were all verrry tricky in the contact. I also know of a line that reacts negatively to some metals. Never say never with horses!

On some level, the mouth is the mirror of the mind. Some horses show stress through their mouths that has nothing to with the bit. Similarly, horses can react differently to the same ride/approach.

Tbh, I'm not sure it's always the case of finding the right bit. Sometimes it's a case of finding the right person to help you
 
I have the same thoughts about my young horse who is 6, although not quite the same problem. I backed him myself & he has only been ridden in loose ring lozenge snaffle or fulmer snaffle with lozenge. Ever since he has been bitted he has continously chewed the bit, to the extent the dentist has told me he has worn his teeth down, when he gets excited which is quite often he will snatch at the bit and yank down almost giving me whiplash on occasion. He only gets strong when hunting anything else & hes fine, only has a cavesson noseband so i must admit I am thinking about trying bitless as he dosent need a stronger bit just something he will settle in any ideas ???
 
Orangehorse said:
I do know a horse that wouldn't accept a bit, ever, and it meant that the owner found that she was excluded from nearly all the classes that she would have liked to enter and ended up doing endurance as that was the only discipline she could do (apart from show jumping, which she didn't want to do anyway). Don't know if anything has changed since then.
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As far as I know not a lot has changed... he certainly won't be able to event bitless
 
viola said:
Many years ago I rode a young horse with similar issues, we jumped so it wasn't a problem to ride him in a hackamore at shows (which he didn't mind and worked well in) but as the owner wanted him bitted I also rode him in a "normal bridle". He hated it. I was about 16 at a time so I could have had hands that needed decent training still but I do recall having similar thoughts to you about him not being able to focus on the task when ridden with a bit.
I do think now that with some horses the first experience of the bit is crucial to how they will accept it further as a balance aid and not something we have control over when we buy horses started by someone else.

You might be lucky and the rules change in which case you could compete him bitless :)

Another thing to try might be to find the bit he least objects to (when bridle is put on) and then ride him off the headcollar with the bit in but unused. This way you will be able to determine how much of his behaviour is to do with lack of tolerance of the bit itself and how much of the action of the bit...
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At least I am not the only person who has thought they have a horse that can't concentrate on them!
Have ridden him in headcollar only but certainly worth a try with bit separately... like that idea!
 
TarrSteps said:
On some level, the mouth is the mirror of the mind. Some horses show stress through their mouths that has nothing to with the bit. Similarly, horses can react differently to the same ride/approach.

Tbh, I'm not sure it's always the case of finding the right bit. Sometimes it's a case of finding the right person to help you
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This is ringing true... finn is very very sensitive. As an example, he wouldn't eat for 3 days because I cleaned the window in his stable!

I am very open to it being a case of me needing to develop a better contact, I work with trainers that I like and trust. So not ruling out that it is something we can work through either
 
clairel said:
It all started because he curls his tongue up, even when standing in the stable as soon as you put bit in he pulls his tongue back but never tries to get it over the bit. Everyone said to shut his mouth, but he is so light and mannerly when ridden I didn't want to.
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Sounds like a habitual response - horses move thier tongues around in their mouths in an attempt to remove pressure that they find uncomfortable. I don't think he necessarily needs to be doing 'work' or actually feel discomfort for him to react to the bit in this manner, now.

clairel said:
........ then began to be a little argumentative, especially downwards trans, and especially walk to halt.
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But isn't he leaning into this pressure, as your pressure increases? Leaning into pressure seems counter intuitive, but its a built in evolutionary response.

clairel said:
He doesn't throw his head around just becomes impossibly heavy. I believe he sets his tongue and opens mouth when he doesn't like the pressure of the bit
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I woudn't be tempted to try to 'shut' his mouth with nosebands etc, as he may be opening his mouth and moving his tongue around in an attempt to relieve pressure, if its more of a training/schooling issue. I'm sure some may not agree here, though. My personally feeling is that nosebands refine a good aid not stop an unwanted behaviour. But, I'm sure this is in an ideal world and may not work in practise all the time.

Perhaps you/him need to work on refining the aids so that he responds better to a light aid. Ask for the transition using a really light aid and if his feet don't slow immediately from this light aid, increase the pressure until he does slow or stop. Release immediately he gives you what you want. Over time, he should then slow/stop from the light aid as he will learn that if he doesn't stop from a light aid, a harder one will follow. So, once learnt, you can use a light aid, and he's happy.

You can fortify the light aid / harder aid by asking for rein back.

Every time he becomes heavy in the hand you can also ask for a downward transition followed by rein back to encourage lightness.

However, you may feel that it isn't a schooling issue. As the other poster stated, it is very hard to know what is happening without seeing the situation, knowign the horse, riding the horse, or knowing how much pressure you do or don't deliver down the reins.

I think bitting is a very individual issue and what one horse finds comfortable another won't, so I do think you have to suck it and see. However, I think that fundamentally, you can work with horses that do appear to be fussy or unduely sensitive by refining your aids as much as possible, so that they become light enough for that individual horse to be comfortable with. I know that we need to be able to use our reins to slow or stop but could you begin to train slow/stop from the seat - that way you are refining the aids and using minimal pressure on the mouth - difficult I know if you want to jump/event.

It is very tricky to jump/xc a horse however, that is sensitive in the mouth, as you do need to feel that they will tolerate a certain amount of pressure without complaining, especially when we as riders get it wrong.

Good luck.
 
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Just as an addendum to my earlier post and what Tonks said, I had a very good horse that had a pretty significant 'mouth fault' of curling his tongue up/sideways. He was out of racing so that didn't help but, most tellingly, the behaviour didn't just show up when ridden. He did it a feeding time, waiting on the lorry - any time he felt stress he could not relieve by free movement.

Dressage was tricky as it both tapped into his issues and didn't tolerate them. There was no magic solution but we did have fair success even in straight dressage through correct, empathetic schooling. He was best in a single joint loose ring or a correction bit. Noseband wise, he went well without but competed in a loose flash or drop, I will freely admit to help disguise the issue and to keep judges off our case. :) I also got drilled by my very good trainer at the time about my own hands. I'm very grateful as this horse taught me a lot about feel and contact as he simply would not tolerate being forced and any roughness or tension in the contact made the whole thing very ugly, very quickly!

Luckily he wasn't too bad galloping and jumping but he was very sensitive in his mouth, although that never bothered me much as he was good at his job and I'm not a fan of having tons my hand anyway.

Interestingly, he was from a tb line known for throwing up biters and even mutilators!
 
It's an old fashioned bit, but I have found a number of mouthy horses who were happier in a Mullen mouth sniffle - unjointed bit with a curved mouthpiece.
 
My gelding was terrible - to the point where judge stopped me after a test to ask if he had problems with his teeth, and after years of fiddling with different bits he is now lovely in the mouth. What has worked for me is:
1. he was uncomfortable and in pain for years in his body, that is resolved so now he really works into the hand happily
2. he is a mild headshaker (connected to the above) he has been getting a tablespoon of salt in his feed and is in a happy mouth. I think he couldn't tolerate metal in his mouth.

Our other gelding had problems with his teeth and an old injury to his jaw and it has made him fussy in the mouth. He is working really nicely in a Micklem. It really does take lots of trial & error.
 
TarrSteps said:
Just as an addendum to my earlier post and what Tonks said, I had a very good horse that had a pretty significant 'mouth fault' of curling his tongue up/sideways. He was out of racing so that didn't help but, most tellingly, the behaviour didn't just show up when ridden. He did it a feeding time, waiting on the lorry - any time he felt stress he could not relieve by free movement.

Dressage was tricky as it both tapped into his issues and didn't tolerate them. There was no magic solution but we did have fair success even in straight dressage through correct, empathetic schooling. He was best in a single joint loose ring or a correction bit. Noseband wise, he went well without but competed in a loose flash or drop, I will freely admit to help disguise the issue and to keep judges off our case. :) I also got drilled by my very good trainer at the time about my own hands. I'm very grateful as this horse taught me a lot about feel and contact as he simply would not tolerate being forced and any roughness or tension in the contact made the whole thing very ugly, very quickly!

Luckily he wasn't too bad galloping and jumping but he was very sensitive in his mouth, although that never bothered me much as he was good at his job and I'm not a fan of having tons my hand anyway.

Interestingly, he was from a tb line known for throwing up biters and even mutilators!
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My son's horse does this. He sticks his tongue our of the side of his mouth tips his head, gurns and chews away. He does it less now when ridden but stands in his stable doing it, and not when stressed, just in a habitual way. He has done it since he was a baby, and his mother apparently also used to stand in her stable doing it. It is the root cause of bitting problems for him & will always affect his dressage I suspect.
 
siennamum said:
He sticks his tongue our of the side of his mouth tips his head, gurns and chews away. He does it less now when ridden but stands in his stable doing it, and not when stressed, just in a habitual way. He has done it since he was a baby
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Sounds like a stereotypy or an 'Abnormal repetitive behaviour' which can include many different types of behaviour, but licking, chewing, sticking tongue out, etc, is pretty common in horses.

Thought to be caused by an inability to exhibit natural behaviour patterns, impaired brain function, or repeated attempts to deal with some problem.

Not thought to be learnt, but can be heriditary I think.

My mare chews and throws her tongue out when she sees someone heading for the stable of her mate (This means her mate will leave her.) As she suffers with issues around separation and thus, can't control her mate leaving her, throwing her tongue out is an attempt to 'displace' her anxiety.

Sorry, going into my psychology mode here, but most species appear to exhibit displacement activities or stereotypies, in some form or another. It is multi-facited (and perhaps even brought on by confinement) but it is seen more in stabled or confined hores as it makes these behaviours worse.

I would argue though, that a stereotypy seen in the stable is not the same as a horse which moves its tongue around as a response to relieve what it feels is undue bit pressure. But, finding out whether the horse is trying to resolve a problem elsewhere on its body [or in its life] or trying to get rid of undue bit pressure is probably nigh on impossible.

But, if I had a horse or client whose horse was sticking its tongue out or chewing etc, with a bridle/bit on, my first thought would be that it's trying to relieve undue bit pressure, but not necessarily at that precise moment. It could be a build up, so to speak.
 
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My lad is quite fussy in his mouth, and like you, I've tried lots of bits that he seems fine in for a while, but then eventually pops his tongue over the bit. He was happiest in a slim ported pelham, but don't want to have to ride in that all the time, and not dressage legal...

The best thing I've found is a (BD legal) Myler (toklat?). I've currently got him in the loose ring version, but keeping my eyes open for an eggbutt one to try. It's slim and no pinching - if you pull it doesn't fold back on itself like a lozenge, but 'locks' in a curved bar shape. I think he doesn't like having his tongue squeezed, but whatever bit he is in, he just doesn't seem to like a strong contact. If I'm really careful with my hands, he softens and flexes beautifully, but when most other people ride him with a 'normal' contact, he just locks his neck. Teeth etc all checked - and to be honest I can't blame him - his mouth is sensitive, and I wouldn't want something pulling against my tongue much either...
 
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