Wits end with napping !!!

[Notimetoride]

I've no idea where to go now with my horse's napping.
She tries to run off with me towards other horses and is so incredibly strong that it can be rather scary. It's like a switch goes in her head and she just wants to run ! She's a Welsh cob so extremely powerful.
I'm not a novice rider - been riding 36 years now. We do BD fairly successfully. But in a group situation she curls her head under and starts to piaffe quite beautifully. Except it's not so beautiful when you know that at any second she's going to tank off !

She's had her ovaries scanned and they were fine, but she's now on regumate to control her hormonal behaviour. She's fed Dengie hi-fi molasses free and a Hack Up bespoke calming/digest/detox supplement. Her teeth are done every 6 months. Saddle checked and tweaked yearly. She has a neue Schue loose ring snaffle with a lozenge. Drop noseband with comfort headpiece (Elevator bridle). She's had sports massages and veterinary physio. And treated for ulcers and her regime is now geared towards ulcer management. I have also has a sports psychology session. She's schooled between 2 and 4 times a week and hacked once or twice a week, and we have monthly lessons with a dressage instructor. We keep trying group training to try to crack the napping but we're getting nowhere. Still as exciteable and nappy as ever. I'm too old for all this nonsense. It's not big and it's not clever, and I just wish she would trot and canter round calmly without all the silliness.
Anyone with any suggestions as I'm running out of ideas.

 

[scats]

Although it sounds like a behavioural problem, I would eliminate any alfalfa from her diet- so change from the dengie hifi to an alfalfa free alternative. It's surprising how many horses change for the better once Alflafa is scrapped from their diet.
Hay or haylage? If Haylage, switch to hay.

Is this something she does every session? Or a once or twice a week bahviour?

 

[fattylumpkin]

If you can control her when unmounted it'd be a good idea to lead her out on walks away from the others. You'll have an easier time tackling her urge to run when you're on the ground and after it fails to work in her favour a few times they soon get the message. I also find that there's a certain boundary line in their head which, once crossed, means no more napping for the duration of the ride - they tend to do it close to home and once you're past that line they give up, so you can walk out and mount up later. If you can't control her even on the ground and she escapes back to the others I'd get help from a trainer to go right back to basic politeness and handling with her, which will help when riding her too. Otherwise, walking her out a significant way should help

GL!

 

[mystiandsunny]

She is behaving like a nappy small pony that runs to the gate/other horses with a small child. Perhaps read some of the solutions for that behaviour and try with your mare? Or find an instructor who teaches small children often and is used to this behaviour? Or send her away for schooling?

Based on my small child and pony (who can be great or can run flat out for another horse/the gate), we have upped the bitting significantly, and adopted various tricks to stop her before she starts. Also gradually increased her confidence in her rider and her belief that he is in charge. It takes time though. My son got on a friend's nappy pony yesterday who only has a snaffle, and I noticed that he couldn't even turn that pony's head when it took off with him. Eventually managed to get the pony on a circle and stopped, but a stronger bit would make that much easier! The key is also not to get upset, but to get even calmly. We made nappy small pony carry on working as if the running off had not happened, and made sure my son always won in the end. By the end of the ride the pony was a lot better than at the beginning.

You do really need some help that is experienced in this area though. I have been run off with plenty(young horses, projects etc) so just need to adapt what I would do to a smaller pony and small child (with a few pointers from people on here!). You need a helpful person to shout useful instructions at you and plan a course of action - or ideally someone to ride the horse in that situation and make it behave until it breaks the habit.

 

[SEL]

If you can control her when unmounted it'd be a good idea to lead her out on walks away from the others. You'll have an easier time tackling her urge to run when you're on the ground and after it fails to work in her favour a few times they soon get the message. I also find that there's a certain boundary line in their head which, once crossed, means no more napping for the duration of the ride - they tend to do it close to home and once you're past that line they give up, so you can walk out and mount up later. If you can't control her even on the ground and she escapes back to the others I'd get help from a trainer to go right back to basic politeness and handling with her, which will help when riding her too. Otherwise, walking her out a significant way should help

GL!

This worked with mine. It took over an hour to get just a few hundred yards up the track the first time out. Every single time she tried to nap back to the yard I turned her on a circle. I had a lunge rope attached to the bridle for more control and a schooling whip so when she planted her hind end I could flick her hock to make her move.

Its still work in progress but she rode up the same track like an angel the other day.

 

[FfionWinnie]

The only way to fix it is when she's doing it unfortunately. Any venues with two schools next to each other you could hire while other horses are being worked and start on the ground perhaps. The bottom line I'm afraid is she's a Welsh d and it's their party trick in my extensive Welsh napper experience!

 

[AdorableAlice]

Do she do this in the collecting ring/warm up at a competition or just in her home environment.

 

[Kezzabell2]

what is she like if you take her in front?

My mare was always a pain in the b u t t when in company but it was a bit more manageable if we were in front!

 

[Antw23uk]

What is she like if you put a decent bit in her gob and threaten to pull her teeth out if she treats you like dirt again? Maybe she is a bit sour from all the schooling?

You say what she does but then tell us how much schooling and BD you do but perhaps elaborate on the napping more and what else she does/ types of situations you've tried in etc?

 

[supsup]

I think I'd try to get someone like an Intelligent Horsemanship recommended associate to come and assess your situation. Sounds like you have ticked all the obvious (and some not so obvious) boxes, but I think getting someone specializing in horse behaviour in might help you understand the underlying motivation for the napping, and come up with a strategy to work on it. The "flipping a switch" thing sounds like your horse perceives something about the situation as already quite stressful, so that it takes very little to push her over the edge into napping. Someone with a well-trained eye for these things can maybe see the early signs, and what causes them. I suspect the most effective way of working on the issue is to lower the base-line stress level and avoid the "flip", rather than try to teach your horse a different behaviour once she's gone over the edge. (That's not saying that some coping strategies for dealing with a nap aren't helpful, just that horses don't learn particularly well when stressed.)

 

[JillA]

"Flipping a switch" sounds like she is just realising she is going to have to go without the others, and some horses find that very difficult.
My old mare was nappy but her favourite trick was a rear when she couldn't get what she wanted. I sorted her using a technique known as the "mill" which is a really really tight circle to her stiff side. Nose to boot tight with total commitment. It's an aversive really, she found it so unpleasant by the time she put the brakes on in preparation for a rear the fifth or sixth time I just took a feel on the rein and she accepted and went forward.
Timing is all - you have to catch it just before she takes off otherwise it is dangerous and she might come down with you. But by the sound of it you know the warning signals - that is the time to do it. Circle a couple of times and then ask for a sensible walk forward - if she bounces, do it again - and again - and again until she has got the message that life will be fine so long as she does it your way. One consolation is those strong willed types and BRILLIANT once they are on your side.
I also did it with a friends horse who liked to put in a huge buck if the others were leaving him. By the fourth time his bucks were a lot more tentative but unfortunately she wasn't an experienced enough rider to carry it on. They have to NEVER achieve their aim without it costing them several circles, even a few weeks on.

 

[WandaMare]

The only way to fix it is when she's doing it unfortunately. Any venues with two schools next to each other you could hire while other horses are being worked and start on the ground perhaps. The bottom line I'm afraid is she's a Welsh d and it's their party trick in my extensive Welsh napper experience!

This made me laugh, its been my experience too! I have a Welsh D at the moment and she's the same too, my instructor refers to her being herd bound I find the only solution is less hard feed and more work. They are such strong and powerful horses and mine have always been excitable around other horses. I lunge her regularly which helps and make her concentrate on me even when the others are messing around in the field next door, which isn't easy but I find its good practice. The only time mine doesn't try it on is when I do very long hacks out so that she's too tired to bother getting on her toes. I won't take her on short hacks anymore because its not fun and its nowhere near enough exercise for her. If I'm short on time I do lunging and then school her instead.

 

[Annagain]

Are you talking about group lessons or hacking?

My boy couldn't deal with group lessons at all, especially anything that involved us all riding as a ride as all he wanted to do was catch up with the horse in front. He was fine in a warm up ring or in lessons where we work more in open order. He doesn't jump any more but group jumping lessons were the worst as the others would wait in the middle or a corner while we went round on our own. He hated it!

If he's ok in all other situations (collecting ring etc) I'd just not do those types of lessons. I won't do anything with more than 3 in a group now although the other day I went to a new venue and although there were only 2 in my group, we were in a big school that had been split in two and there were 4 in next door. He thought about it, but it was fine as all those smaller groups have taught me how to ensure he's focussed on me - if he starts being a prat he's given something more challenging to focus on!

Out hacking he wasn't perfect (he's much better now) and he seemed to have a real fear of being left behind at anything faster than a trot. Again I keep my hacking groups small, and initially stuck with understanding people who would let me go in front if I really had to but did work on him staying behind others too - luckily my friend's TB is fast so he doesn't stand a chance of keeping up so he's got used to being left behind a little but the other horse always being there at the other end. Nappers will rarely gallop off ahead of the others so once I learned that he'll always stop when the horse in front does I found I could trust him a bit more, relax and not fight him so when I do have to ask him to stop he knows I mean it.

 

[Notimetoride]

Although it sounds like a behavioural problem, I would eliminate any alfalfa from her diet- so change from the dengie hifi to an alfalfa free alternative. It's surprising how many horses change for the better once Alflafa is scrapped from their diet.
Hay or haylage? If Haylage, switch to hay.

Is this something she does every session? Or a once or twice a week bahviour?

As we are on an ulcer management regime, she really does need the alfalfa to neutralise the stomach acid. We have just successfully treated grade 3 ulcers and I really don't want them returning. She was on straight alfalfa but I felt it was giving her too much energy so have now switched to Hi-Fi molasses free which is only partial alfalfa. I need to speak to the vet to see if I can take her off the alfalfa completely but I suspect he will say no. Shes on hay as haylage isn't good with ulcers. She tends to nap in every group session at a particular venue - a huge indoor arena with a full set of showjumps up permanently. she schools beautifully alone, and doesn't nap too bad with other people in our arena at the yard. She sometimes naps at a competition if she can see the horses in the warm up ring. Out hacking she will piaffe on the way home and naps up the driveway, despite me spending a good 10 mins every time going back and forth past the gateway until I feel shes quiet enough to go up the driveway.

 

[Notimetoride]

Are you talking about group lessons or hacking?

My boy couldn't deal with group lessons at all, especially anything that involved us all riding as a ride as all he wanted to do was catch up with the horse in front. He was fine in a warm up ring or in lessons where we work more in open order. He doesn't jump any more but group jumping lessons were the worst as the others would wait in the middle or a corner while we went round on our own. He hated it!

If he's ok in all other situations (collecting ring etc) I'd just not do those types of lessons. I won't do anything with more than 3 in a group now although the other day I went to a new venue and although there were only 2 in my group, we were in a big school that had been split in two and there were 4 in next door. He thought about it, but it was fine as all those smaller groups have taught me how to ensure he's focussed on me - if he starts being a prat he's given something more challenging to focus on!

Out hacking he wasn't perfect (he's much better now) and he seemed to have a real fear of being left behind at anything faster than a trot. Again I keep my hacking groups small, and initially stuck with understanding people who would let me go in front if I really had to but did work on him staying behind others too - luckily my friend's TB is fast so he doesn't stand a chance of keeping up so he's got used to being left behind a little but the other horse always being there at the other end. Nappers will rarely gallop off ahead of the others so once I learned that he'll always stop when the horse in front does I found I could trust him a bit more, relax and not fight him so when I do have to ask him to stop he knows I mean it.

Its group lessons. We only hack by ourselves, or sometimes with one other. She will piaffe on the way home which isn't much fun, but my real issue is the group lessons.

 

[scats]

As we are on an ulcer management regime, she really does need the alfalfa to neutralise the stomach acid. We have just successfully treated grade 3 ulcers and I really don't want them returning. She was on straight alfalfa but I felt it was giving her too much energy so have now switched to Hi-Fi molasses free which is only partial alfalfa. I need to speak to the vet to see if I can take her off the alfalfa completely but I suspect he will say no. Shes on hay as haylage isn't good with ulcers. She tends to nap in every group session at a particular venue - a huge indoor arena with a full set of showjumps up permanently. she schools beautifully alone, and doesn't nap too bad with other people in our arena at the yard. She sometimes naps at a competition if she can see the horses in the warm up ring. Out hacking she will piaffe on the way home and naps up the driveway, despite me spending a good 10 mins every time going back and forth past the gateway until I feel shes quiet enough to go up the driveway.

I have an ulcer prone horse, and I successfully manage him without any alfalfa now (for my own safety).

 

[Notimetoride]

"Flipping a switch" sounds like she is just realising she is going to have to go without the others, and some horses find that very difficult.
My old mare was nappy but her favourite trick was a rear when she couldn't get what she wanted. I sorted her using a technique known as the "mill" which is a really really tight circle to her stiff side. Nose to boot tight with total commitment. It's an aversive really, she found it so unpleasant by the time she put the brakes on in preparation for a rear the fifth or sixth time I just took a feel on the rein and she accepted and went forward.
Timing is all - you have to catch it just before she takes off otherwise it is dangerous and she might come down with you. But by the sound of it you know the warning signals - that is the time to do it. Circle a couple of times and then ask for a sensible walk forward - if she bounces, do it again - and again - and again until she has got the message that life will be fine so long as she does it your way. One consolation is those strong willed types and BRILLIANT once they are on your side.
I also did it with a friends horse who liked to put in a huge buck if the others were leaving him. By the fourth time his bucks were a lot more tentative but unfortunately she wasn't an experienced enough rider to carry it on. They have to NEVER achieve their aim without it costing them several circles, even a few weeks on.

Thank you. I will try this

Yes, she is brilliant when on side. Shes polite, not at all bargy on the ground, will produce a lovely dressage test and is mostly ok hacking. She really is a delight, if I could only sort this napping out

 

[JillA]

Out hacking she will piaffe on the way home and naps up the driveway, despite me spending a good 10 mins every time going back and forth past the gateway until I feel shes quiet enough to go up the driveway.

She has learned all good things happen when she gets home - work stops, food is offered, tack is removed. Put her to work when she gets home - go in the school and do some circles, serpentines and transitions. That will change her perception of home as somewhere to rush to

 

[Notimetoride]

The only way to fix it is when she's doing it unfortunately. Any venues with two schools next to each other you could hire while other horses are being worked and start on the ground perhaps. The bottom line I'm afraid is she's a Welsh d and it's their party trick in my extensive Welsh napper experience!

With your extensive Welsh napper experience, have you managed to solve it

 

[Notimetoride]

Do she do this in the collecting ring/warm up at a competition or just in her home environment.

Depending on her mood, she can sometimes nap towards the gate i.e curl up, piaffe and given half a chance, run flat out !! But that isn't too often - my issues is group lessons. she can also sometimes do it at a competition if she can see the warm up ring from the arena. Ive had to retire before as im riding a rocket !!!

 

[OWLIE185]

The traditional Welsh Section D were absolutely fine and lovely cobs until someone decided that they needed to have thinner legs etc. Then everything went wrong and now they have the genetics of other breeds of highly strung horses which is all rather sad.
What your horse needs is to be taken daily 7 days per week on seriously long hacks (5 hours) to sort it out once and for all and get rid of all it's excess negative energy.

 

[Notimetoride]

The traditional Welsh Section D were absolutely fine and lovely cobs until someone decided that they needed to have thinner legs etc. Then everything went wrong and now they have the genetics of other breeds of highly strung horses which is all rather sad.
What your horse needs is to be taken daily 7 days per week on seriously long hacks (5 hours) to sort it out once and for all and get rid of all it's excess negative energy.

I wholly agree with this. Arab was bred into them which of course gives them their stunning looks. But now we have some rather fiery ponies with an awful lot of muscle ! to be fair, she really is an absolute poppet, and not at all a demon. We've done so well together so far. But this little problem is holding up back now. I also agree that some very hard work is what she needs, but with full time work and other commitments, there is just no time.
Ive just had a word with the vet about taking removing all alfalfa from her diet and hes agreed I can do this. Yay ! So shes on basic rations from now on !!

 

[be positive]

The group sessions seem to be your main issue but also your way of trying to "cure" the problem so I would go about it in a different way if it was possible and have an individual lesson where you are the focus and not just one of several the instructor is trying to deal with, and have another person riding in the school at the same time, their job is to be out of your way but to get "involved" when required, that way your mare is going to be kept under scrutiny at all times and be dealt with instantly if he behaviour slips, you will need a good friend willing and able to assist but the results should be more beneficial than doing groups lessons where the "difficult" horse can become a nuisance and only gets attention when they play up.

I often give lessons with another livery being exercised, it helps both riders and is extremely good for the horses, group lessons I don't enjoy giving as it can be hard to deal with problems as well as give those doing well enough attention, not such an issue with jump lessons but trying to do decent flatwork in a group is not easy especially if one has "special needs"

 

[Fiona]

There are non alfalfa chaffs OP such as Readigrass or Dodson and Horrell Just Grass, so if you need to feed chaff than maybe one of those would be more acceptable.

Good luck...

Fiona

 

[Notimetoride]

There are non alfalfa chaffs OP such as Readigrass or Dodson and Horrell Just Grass, so if you need to feed chaff than maybe one of those would be more acceptable.

Good luck...

Fiona

Thank for that. Ive also just discovered Top Spec Top Chop Zero which is super low cal with no alfa or molasses so it seems to fit the bill ! Going to give it a whirl and see if she becomes a little less fizzy

 

[Annagain]

Depending on her mood, she can sometimes nap towards the gate i.e curl up, piaffe and given half a chance, run flat out !! But that isn't too often - my issues is group lessons. she can also sometimes do it at a competition if she can see the warm up ring from the arena. Ive had to retire before as im riding a rocket !!!

She sounds just like my boy used to be (except he's 16.3 but similar tank like proportions being Irish). Ditch the group lessons go with no more than one other horse to begin with, up it to two if/when you can. What you need to do is work out a plan of action for diffusing the situation when she gets like this.

Occupying A's mind so he's not focussing on anything but me is what I need to do - leg yielding in trot down the long side then transition to walk and back to trot on the short side is my go to exercise as he finds leg yielding quite a challenge and the transitions keep him guessing about what's coming next. It took a lot of building my confidence and trial and error in smaller groups for me to work out a plan and put it into action in a warm up arena. You also get to know certain signs that something is brewing and can react more quickly to nip it in the bud. A blocks through his right shoulder so the second I start to feel this I know to "adopt the plan" as we call it and this prevents escalation.

As he's got more established in his work, the distraction exercise has had to develop with it - to begin with serpentines with a 15m circle at the start of the 2nd loop was enough, now he can do that with his eyes closed it doesn't do anything to focus him on me! I imagine the leg yielding might stop working one day but as he's 21 now I'm hoping I won't have to figure out a new one!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Although it sounds like a behavioural problem, I would eliminate any alfalfa from her diet- so change from the dengie hifi to an alfalfa free alternative. It's surprising how many horses change for the better once Alflafa is scrapped from their diet.
Hay or haylage? If Haylage, switch to hay.

Is this something she does every session? Or a once or twice a week bahviour?

Just what I was going to say!
My WelshDxTB was incredibly sensitive to feed and it affected her behaviour horribly.

 

[Notimetoride]

I've had some brilliant advice and I'm very grateful. Feeling a bit happier now. What I've done is booked another clinic with a super trainer who has a lovely 'bedside manner' and wants to help with our problem. And as the vet has said we can come off the alfalfa, I'm ditching every last scrap of it and she's going on Top Chop Zero which has absolutely no dreaded alfalfa or molasses. So we'll see if we can crack this 😊

 

[SEL]

I use Topchop zero & the 2 fatties are doing fine on it, inc the one that had ulcers. It has quite a strong apple smell that I'm not massively keen on, but I'm not the one having it for breakfast!

 

[Orangehorse]

Best of luck, I've heard of quite a few hyper, strong Welsh Ds. There have been some good suggestions.

I remember reading about the work and feeding for one Welsh D. He was showing at the weekend in the summer, driving during the week and hunting at the weekend in winter, all on a handful of feed. He was working seriously hard virtually on fresh air, grass and hay.