Wobblers... symptoms and diagnosis

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_jetset_

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I have also put this in the breeding section to get as much info as possible, so apologies if you are reading it for the second time.

I am struggling to find anything on the internet regarding this, so wondered whether people on here had more information on it???
 
What sort of info are you looking for?
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Off the top of my head, the symptoms are lack of co-ordination, particularly in the hind end, where the horse appears to sway, 'wobble' when moving, but without appearing to be in pain.
It is caused, I think, by irregular growth particularly in tall, leggy and fast growing youngsters, when the cervical vertebrae press on the spinal cord. Some horses also show symptoms after trauma.
Wobblers are graded according to the severity of the problem, mild ones showing few symptoms, and severe horses being dangerous and needing PTS. They are dangerous because they tend to fall over, and could fall on handlers.
It is hereditary (unless due to trauma) so affected mares should not be bred.
I do believe that some vets have operated on mildly affected horses, but don't know the outcome.
The wobblers I knew were either severe (PTS) or mild (unrideable field ornaments).
Hope that helps?
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My mare was a TB, which I believe it is most common in. She was very very dangerous with it though she did also have kissing spine. Poor girlie
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TBH with her it wasn't subtle, she was very dangerous both to ride and handle. She was quite lazy to ride really, but then she would just flip and bolt and I mean blind panic. She did actually break my arm. I obviously knew something was very very wrong and she was referred to Lambourne where they discovered her problems. I have just found this if it helps. http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/horses/facts/info_wobbler.htm
 
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Thanks... How are horses diagnosed?

Can it be at the front rather than the back?

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Mainly from vet examination, in my experience. If you walk and trot them up, then you often see co-ordination problems, toe dragging and a sort of sideways swaying.
It tends to be the backend. If the horse is stumbling/inco-ordinated in front it could be either a localised injury to a nerve, or something like selenium deficiency (esp if the horse is out at grass on a selenium deficient area of the country).
It is quite difficult to diagnose, as tall fast growing youngsters have proprioception problems (their legs have grown longer than their brains think they are so they misjudge everything and are clumsy, and prone to falling over too
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). I suppose the difference is that wobblers gets worse with time.
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Thank you to both of you...

This morning I was picking out Troy's front left at the door with his head on the floor sniffing something. I put his foot down, and he just fell to his knees and then scrambled up again. However, he looked a bit shook up when I was walking to the field (after checking knees) and for the first 2 mins of walking he seemed to be a bit unusual in the walk, but following that was absolutely fine.

I have just never seen a horse do this before.
 
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Thank you to both of you...

This morning I was picking out Troy's front left at the door with his head on the floor sniffing something. I put his foot down, and he just fell to his knees and then scrambled up again. However, he looked a bit shook up when I was walking to the field (after checking knees) and for the first 2 mins of walking he seemed to be a bit unusual in the walk, but following that was absolutely fine.

I have just never seen a horse do this before.

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That sounds more like idiot youngster syndrome to me
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My Shire x Tb girl grew really quickly as a weanling to a two year old, and was so clumsy...that would have been typical of her.
She would trot about in the field at feed time, shake her head, lose balance and fall flat over onto her side.
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If you can put him in a field with a slope, that helps them develop balance.
Oh, and my girl is now 4yo and very well balanced.
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My youngster did exactly the same thing, was picking out her feet and she just fell over. I think it frightened her, as much as me. But she just had a moment where she wasnt really concentrating and it caught her by surprise I think that I had her leg off the ground. Total case of 'idiotis'. She is now 5 and has never done it since and is perfectly normal to ride/handle etc
 
I agree with most of the others Becki, especially what Shils said about clumsy youngsters. My 6 year old shire gelding was forever tripping and still does a bit. He was just over 17hh as a 2 year old and stands at 18.2hh now. He grew too quickly for his brain and it takes his bum a couple of seconds to catch up with the rest of him.

Cass was diagnosed with possible wobblers after a trauma to her head (which they didnt know about at the time) and went into Bristol Vets for a week in 2004. She had Hypermetria (high stepping gait) and ataxia (incoordination) in all four limbs. Hypermetria and ataxia are indicative of a cervical (neck) lesion. These are the symptoms also for concussion! To confirm a pre existing cervical spondylopathy (wobbler) a myelography can be performed which requires a GA.

Wobblers also isnt usually apparent until 4 - 6 years old, normally in young TBs. This is not a rule of thumb though. It can occur from a recent trauma or long standing injury.

You dont have anything to worry about hun
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If you want any more info on Cass' experience, buzz me.

Hx
 
My friends horse did this as a 4 year old, he was stood at the hitching rail tacked up when she realised that she hadn't picked out his feet, she went to the front, picked his foot up and he crashed to the ground, he lay there for about 10 seconds and then got up and seemed fine. He never did it again. It was really scary - imagine 17.2 of Cleveland bay x TB in a heap on the floor! We think that he was asleep and his locking mechanism didn't work.

Sure that it is probably similar with your youngster.
 
Youngsters quite often have proprioceptive (the ability to accurately "map" where the body is) problems because they literally change shape, strength and movement on a daily basis. It's tough to keep track. (I was my adult height, 5'10" at 12 years of age but 40 lbs lighter than I am now, at least some of that muscle
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. I occasionally used to hit my ankles when I ran and trip myself. Same principle . . . or at least that's my story.
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) Bigger horses suffer more because relatively, from their perspective the world is less spacious and comes at them quicker. It's just something you have to help them learn to deal with.

It also takes time for horses to sort out what people want and sometimes doing something differently, even only slightly, can mess a baby horse up for a minute.

A common proprioception test is to cross the front feet manually, then lead it forward and see if it gets out of its own way. A horse with a problem - often from something as simple as a leg injury - will have a problem. It's far more common than you'd think and a lot of horses compensate so well you'd never know for everyday. There are exercises one can do, but turn out on uneven ground is often considered the best way forward. It's very fixable. (I am NOT saying the OPs horse has a problem, merely pointing out that not every uncoordinated moment, even if it's a pathology, has a disasterous root cause.) Interestingly most "ground work" and dressage movements are, at their root, proprioceptive exercises.
 
I have dealt with 1 youngster who had wobblers. he had fallen in his stable 2 days before which might have caused more damage than 1st thought (he got up and was fine at the time).
i went to bring him in from the field and he wouldn't or couldn't lift his head. i got onto the vet right away.
i brought him in but he staggering all over the place and couldn't seem to co ordinate his back end at all.
to cut a long story short he ended up with x rays and was put on steroids. he did improve but still had a weird action behind, like he couldn't feel his hind legs or where he was putting them.
he had a weird tail which bent at the end (like the last part had broken and set at an angle) and was also about 16hh by the time he was 18 months old, TB x Hano so not sure of the cause of his probs.
he was a field ornament until june this year (he had about 6 months of wobblers) and ended up worse and was PTS.
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I hope Gloster Image does not mind but at one time I was worried her horse was a wobbler, but it just turned out he was going through an difficult phase, he lacked coordination at time and fell over sometimes. I have now seen it a lot more with my work with TB's and realise he was not a wobbler, just growing pains common in warmblood type horses as they mature a lot later than TB's. My own T Bag was really quite uncoordinated when we broke him in ridden and just couldn't understand picking up his feet. Gloster Image is fine now as you all know with his regular reports. However recently saw a horse that had had a bad experience post GA and now would be classes as a wobbler. Believe me Jetset do not be too worried about your boy he sounds normal. I am sure that all of your horses are ok!
 
Thanks everyone... I have never had a horse's leg just give way the way his did this morning and because he is such a big lad for his age I was concerned that he walked a bit strange after the fall.

However, I was looking into Wobblers for someone else and couldn't find much about it for her. The vet pulled the horses tail to test him, so I was wondering whether there were other ways. All this and then my own youngter just collapses at my feet (literally
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I'd also add, if you think it IS wobblers, get a specialst vet to give a definitive diagnosis. A horse at my old yard had problems with just about everything from being mounted to ridden work to walking across the yard. Vet came out and instantly diagnosed wobblers even though the horse didn't fit the normal "patient profile" as described above - he was a 9 yr old, 17hh ID x I think. Anyway, vet prescribed immediate savagely restrictive box rest for 6 weeks. After about 3 days the poor horse was unable to move at all from stiffness at being caged for all that time. 2nd opinion from a specialst veterinary hospital immediately discounted wobblers and thorough investigations showed an old, improperly healed shoulder injury! Wobblers shmobblers. Rare things are rare, more common things are more common! Good luck x
 
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I would imagine he had a mild case of idiotitis rather than wobblers!

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I agree. Silly man!

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i agree, i very much doubt its wobblers. Sounds like a baby lack of co-ordination to me!!!!! Even Archie does that sometimes when hes not concentrating (his legs are too far from his brain!!!
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Wobblers shmobblers. Rare things are rare, more common things are more common! Good luck x

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I agree! Horses (and dogs, particularly Dobermans) are diagnosed with wobblers when in fact they have a spinal injury.

It presents as symptoms of wobblers but it is possible to treat with physio/chiro etc.

Wobblers is caused by lack of space in the vertebral column for the spinal cord. OR Poor allignment of the vertebrae. Both of which can be genetic. (Poor allignment can be due to trauma)This causes compression of the spinal cord and leads to either para or quadraplegia. In dogs, it is less likely to be found in partbreds as it is a recessive gene and the gene is different in different breeds. I would suspect it is the same in horses.

Horses will show signs of wobblers before they are fully mature. Once they are fully grown then signs of wobblers are more likely to be due to either trauma or bony changes within the spine.

In large breed dogs it shows at different times in different breeds. It also involves different neck vertebrae in different breeds, hence they are thinking it is a different gene for different breeds. As far as i am aware there is a lot more research going into wobblers in dogs, and most of the research is happening in the states.

Wobblers can be diagnosed conclusively only by myelogram and all this pulling of tails etc is just old school. Yes it may show neurological problems but it does not necessarily mean wobblers.

IMHO
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Wobblers is a term used by some vets as a global term to describe neurological problems. It is rather like people saying they have flu when in fact they have a cold.

I do wonder how many horses/dogs are diagnosed incorrectly with wobblers and pts when they could be treated by alternative therapies.
 
I think the term has very much become a "catch all" for a collection of symptoms, rather than a distinct technical term to describe and identifiable disease, in this case with a genetic component.

After all, like any other DJD (the spine is just a bunch of joints) no one has been able to put a definitive finger on one cause, although most people seem to agree, as with so many things, its a combination of nature and nurture. Which is not to say, if the horse is predisposed, management can necessarily prevent the problem, more that some horses not developing a problem is no proof of the effects of nurture one way or the other.

The only point is WHY a horse is having problems can have a great deal of bearing on how best to help it. A blanket diagnosis of an untreatable condition is perhaps, an "easy" way out and cuts off investigation of other causes. Although I have to say it has been my personal experience that any spinal injury/disease serious enough to compromise co-ordination has a generally less than wholly positive outcome.

On the subject of injuries not causing long term deterioration, I would beg to differ on purely anecdotal grounds. In one case, absolutely by fluke, I saw a young horse slip and hit his neck on a fence post, only to get up and run off without immediate signs of injury. He seemed fine for a couple of days, then started to tilt his head, then clearly showed signs of ataxia, at first most noticable moving at speed. This process took a couple of weeks. When he was finally x-rayed (really, there was no initial reason to worry) it turned out he has a slightly displaced fracture and his spinal cord was effectively dying by degrees. Obviously that was that.

In another case I was able to determine that a horse in for behavioural training had sustained a serious neck injury in the past, even with lameness although it was put down to another cause. The horse "recovered" although I knew him at the time and I felt he never moved as well again as he had as a young horse. Later on he developed serious behavioural issues, although continued to work under saddle, even jumping, although again, I thought not as well as he should have. The problem was he had been such a stunning horse before even 50% seemed enough to lots of people! Eventually he came to me and again, he improved with a change in management but I did convince the owners there was more going on and convinced a vet to investigate further. Upon examination it became clear he has some very serious neck pain, some down to arthritis, some likely due to other ongoing problems stemming from the original accident. We blocked his neck and he was immediately a different horse.

Even after all this, they refused to really believe he had a neck injury but was just being "difficult". They sold him without full disclosure and last I heard he's hurt someone very badly.
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But this took YEARS. The initial injury happened when he was 3, the complications started almost immediately but didn't become noticeable enough to not ignore for over a year, then he continued to be ridden for over a year after that. Hardly immediate.

It really does make me wonder how many "difficult" horses have coordination/neurological issues stemming from injury and/or disease. Many more than are diagnosed, I suspect.
 
Totally agree with what you are saying. Not all spinal injuries are curable with chiro or physio. I just get a bit miffed with vets saying it is wobblers syndrome when it is not. By all means say it is neurological, but dont label as wobblers without a myelogram!
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Label as neurological or spinal damage by all means! Just don't label as wobblers!

Wobblers is very difficult to treat in horses and dogs as essentially it requires drilling out of the space in the vertebrae, with limited success. But if the symptoms of wobblers are apparent in an older part bred horse- or dog-then it is worth looking at alternative causes and therefore alternative treatments. It could be treatable. If it is true wobblers then I personally would not treat. So if I had a young TB that was "wobbly" then I would probably just pts as the chances that is was wobblers would be higher. But in an older part bred horse it would be more likely to be due to trauma and therefore possibly treatable.

However, research is still continuing! I just hope that British Vets keep up!
 
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I totally agree with you, too. I can't see the wisdom in treating a "true" wobbler and I still wonder how many of the ones that improve with medication and therapy are not, in fact, wobblers but horses who have sustained an injury or have some other problem.

As a side note, I've been told by veterinarians that horses cannot have strokes, at least in the way we understand it but I've cared for two horses (and seen a few more) that I would swear had something along those lines. Both lost co-ordination severely and suddenly, with symptoms unilateral or more pronounced on one side. It looked VERY much like wobblers, aside from the very sudden onset. Both horses were treated initially with steriods, then bute, then just turned out for time to do its thing. Both recovered enough to be ridden safely, one went back to jumping (the other already had other problems).

Sooo . . . if those horses had been more thoroughly investigated I sure someone would have found something. They were both older horses that had had full competitive lives, including a lot of jumping, and no doubt had some arthritis. But they recovered completely without much help so presumably would have got better no matter what we'd done.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-vet at all and am all for investigative science, but I do know treating horses is far from an exact science, with lots of holes in the knowledge base. Vets are often just educated guessers.
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One of my best friends 3 year olds was diagnosied with Catagory 5 wobblers (went from a cat 3 to 5 in just under 3 weeks) and the vets suggested PTS.

His symptoms were poor coordination of the back legs, tail dock was leaning to one side to help balance him and he occassionally fell or his back end gave way.

My friend couldnt bring herself to have him PTS and wanted to give him a chance so we took him down to Liphoook and they did a Mylergram to isolate the pressure on the spine, the Mylergram was successfull so he had titanium baskets fitted to his spine, again he came through the operation.

He was in the stable for 3 months after and im pleased to say he is now out in his field and his symptoms seem to be improving everyday!, unfortunately we will never know if he will be fully recovered but as long as hes happy and not at risk we will be happy.

My friend took a big risk by having him operated on as we didnt know if he would come through or if it would be able to save him but were both strong believers that where there is life you have to try.
 
I agree with Ben&Jerrys, sounds like idiot horse more than anything else. My horse is completely stupid half the time and doesn't pay attention to what he's doing. He managed to fall over last week while I was picking his feet out... I had a front foot in my hand, something caught his attention and he decided to move his back legs, so he fell over. Purely his own fault for being stupid.

Try not to worry so much, just because the horse fell over once doesn't mean it's a write off or has something horribly wrong with it.
 
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