Working English Pointer Stud Wanted

[betsyboop]

My girl is from a very old and long show line and an old fasioned type. I have been looking at stud dogs from compatable kennels and am amazed at the inbreeding. Most of these dogs have been bred by experienced breeders and I am not saying I think there is anything wrong with it as there are arguments for both views. But, as I am not an experiened breeder and I don't fully understand the issue I feel nervous about using such tightly bred line dogs.

I'm thinking it would be better to find a complete outcross so am looking for a good FT dog. Does any one know of one or where I begin to look?

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks for reading.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

http://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeds/german-shorthaired-pointer/stud-dogs

Not seeing English pointer on Champdogs, which is a decent website to use to look for studs. There are currently 24 litters available in the UK on that site alone, God knows about the free ads, epupz etc. There are 15 litters on the KC website, possibly same as the Champdogs site.

Do you have homes lined up?

 

[betsyboop]

Champ dogs is one of the sites I have looked at and every stud dog is of show lines these are the dogs I am not sure I want to use. Yes I do have some homes lined up, one will remain with me. I have thought about whether or not I should breed a litter from my girl for about 2 years and am confident in my decision. My serious care and thought as to a suitable stud is why I have requested help from anyone with relevant experience.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Would you consider an import or AI?
Have you contacted a breed society?

 

[devonlass]

Second champdogs,their forum is also good and maybe you could do a post and get a bit more feedback from either the breeders or others who know them??

I got my pointer bitch I had years ago from a hunt yard on Dartmoor.Think the one I got mine from just bred a few for themselves,but maybe other yards would have working dogs they let out for stud?? Not sure if that a completely dumb idea BTW feel free to ignore of so lol

 

[s4sugar]

http://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeds/german-shorthaired-pointer/stud-dogs

Not seeing English pointer on Champdogs, which is a decent website to use to look for studs. There are currently 24 litters available in the UK on that site alone, God knows about the free ads, epupz etc. There are 15 litters on the KC website, possibly same as the Champdogs site.

Do you have homes lined up?

That is because the breed is properly called "pointer" - 18 studs & five litters.


The first step should be the bitch's breeder & also the breed club. http://www.thepointerclub.co.uk
There are FT CH pointers and there is a field trial held by the pointer club in September.
Outcrossing from show to field lines can make the puppies impossible to place as neither side may be interested. Unless you work your bitch a stud dog owner may not consider her.

Have you had the required health tests done? - HD testing?

 

[CorvusCorax]

S4sugar has a point, especially re health tests but I want to back up the point made about the working and showline crossovers - as well as the 'ideal' of a working dog who shows or a show dog who can work, from what I have seen in my own breed you can also get ordinary-looking dogs with not much work ethic in litters, in the nicest possible way, which of course make great pets but will not generate the kind of interest from show or working people

 

[betsyboop]

This is a good point and one I have considered, a pup from my bitch and FT/working stud would be one nor the other. I would love to have a go at field trial but living in the south I have tried 2 gun dog trainers and they really don't understand or want to understand pointers. All they want to do is retrieve, boring boring for a pointer, she will do it but wants to hunt. I took her on to the north york moors and she was in heaven finding grouse I had no idea about.

My thought are I don't want a show dog as any dog must be fit for purpose and an outcross will be stronger and have more vigor. Most of any litter will become pets, pointers make superb pets as long as you know what you are getting and are prepared to excercise.

I need to talk to more pointer people show and working and make sure I find the right stud for my girl as creating new little lives is so exciting but a huge responsibility and one that must be looked into deeply. Thank you for all your views

Yes I am waiting for official results for HD testing, though unfortunately most of the pointer breeders don't do this test as there is not a general problem in pointers. If all breeders did it there never would be. On the main pointer forum ledgends, an excellent site, HD testing is an issue talked about so hopefully it will be the norm to test soon.

 

[galaxy]

Where in the south are you? Have you tried this group?

http://www.southwestgsp.org/

I know it's says GSP, but there are plenty of vizlas that go along (not sure about Pointers, a friend of mine takes her GSP along), but they know what they are on about with this type of dog!

 

[betsyboop]

Thanks galaxy23 that's really helpful, will contact the group. I'm in West Sussex but would travel to Dorset it's not that far. Pointers visla and GSP's are all HPR's so I think they would except pointers. GSP's seem to be worked more from what I gather but I don't know why. The trainer I am going to always says my bitch would make a lovely working dog but she really doesn't want to retrieve all the time















gsp

 

[galaxy]

lol, my gsp retrieves all day long!!!!!

I know they do a lot around Southampton, so hopefully not too far for you.

 

[Dry Rot]

I don't really understand why anyone would want to keep a working dog, bred to have such a passion for hunting that it would run at a fast gallop for hours on end for a hint of bird scent, would ever want one for a house pet? Their favourite noise is the sound of ripping cloth! I would rather live with a family of wolverines!

My own pointers will scream with frustration whenever one of my free range hens walks past the kennel fence and when they are in the paddock they spend their time chasing butterflies and swallows -- or digging holes! I'm sorry, but all the walks in the world are not going to satisfy that sort of energy. At a minimum, you are going to need an acre paddock with a dog proof fence and be prepared to have the pups destroyed when they don't sell.

Sorry to be harsh, but I've seen it all before and someone needs to warn you of what will come! Stick to your show dogs.

 

[betsyboop]

Here in the south we have many pointers living happy and full lives, mine certainly does I make sure of it, that's the point of trialing. I disagree that these dogs do not make pet/house dogs I have had several, the original point of my question to this forum was to explore whether or not it would be better to outcross my bitch as I am worried that the show population has to much line/inbreeding going on.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I know plenty of working dogs who like to sofa surf and love their cuddles and sleep on their owner's beds during their down time....different sport but no less prey-driven in certain dogs.
It would be easier for the OP to keep linebreeding.

While of course there can be some dodgy specimens in every litter as I said, and I don't subscribe to the theory that show x working always = pretty landsharks, I do think in many breeds it is worth exploring improving the work ethic in showlines, and to a lesser extent, improve the construction of working dogs. Without outcrossing, you get bottlenecks and I know to my cost what happens then.

And I hate to repeat myself OP you didn't mention if you were going to have your bitch hip and elbow scored before breeding - there is no point of trying to promote vigour and health if you don't know what is lurking in the lines.

 

[betsyboop]

Yes she has been xrayed and I'm waiting for official results, as I said it is not the norm in the pointer community, unfortunately, as there isn't generally a problem but if all breeding dogs were scored there wont ever be one.

Yes it would be so easy to carry on line breeding as my bitches line will be in much demand from the showing folk but every posibility should be looked into thoroughly before new little lives are created.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Sorry, missed that
Well done for having her x-rayed, especially if it isn't the done thing, the 'just one of those things' outlook drives me mad!!!

Line breeding for the wrong reasons (what do they say, it's inbreeding if you don't know what you're doing, linebreeding if you do?) and putting fingers in ears and singing 'lalalalalala, nothing bad will happen' has been the downfall of a lot of breeds, I wish more people would look beyond the end of their nose and think about what is beneficial to the breed as a whole.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I don't really understand why anyone would want to keep a working dog, bred to have such a passion for hunting that it would run at a fast gallop for hours on end for a hint of bird scent, would ever want one for a house pet? Their favourite noise is the sound of ripping cloth! I would rather live with a family of wolverines!

Cor! Are they the same work motivated types as springers? Cos my three are flat out!

The oldest is straight from a farm in the Herefordshire hills: he 'works' when out, but will happily do his dead dog impression most of the day if allowed. He's very motivated, but quite used to being calm at home.

Most working breeds will end up as pets: springers, for example, are probably the most prolific working turned popular pet breed.

 

[CorvusCorax]

CT, a half brother to mine, on paper, should be a world-beater.
But he doesn't even take any notice if you chuck a ball and doesn't care much for food either.
However admittedly, I wouldn't advertise a working dog to a *novice* pet home or one with no experience of working bred dogs.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I knew no better when we got Brig . The FIL sourced a mixed coloured litter and we were there! Shameful. He is the BEST dog, obviously!

I think, in some cases, that workers can be successfully homed to numpties (like me) and be fine. Tbh, the pups have been much harder work than big dog, even though they were pet bred. Well, when I say pups, I mean Zak. Bear is a piece of cake.

 

[Dry Rot]

Cor! Are they the same work motivated types as springers? Cos my three are flat out!

The oldest is straight from a farm in the Herefordshire hills: he 'works' when out, but will happily do his dead dog impression most of the day if allowed. He's very motivated, but quite used to being calm at home.

Most working breeds will end up as pets: springers, for example, are probably the most prolific working turned popular pet breed.

A working spaniel, bred to work within half a gunshot, is not quite the same thing as a breed bred to work a front several hundred yards wide at full gallop on the open moor for hours on end!

I'm afraid field trials, especially down south, are rapidly being "modernised" so that show dogs can compete rather than the longer route of improving the hunting ability of the show dogs. The long term intentions of the KC are to follow the Continental system where dogs must succeed both in trials and shows, but (typically) they are coming from the wrong direction as the aim is (as usual) to increase their income from mail order registrations. That aim is being achieved through an increase in technical faults at field trials, what I call "fancy points", and very little to do with selecting for the fast game finding ability for which these dogs were originally bred before driven shooting came into vogue.

I suspect that for the purposes of this thread a "working pointer" is defined as a pointer that will point. William Arkwright answered that one by quoting the story of the New Forest pig that was trained to point partridges within 14 days. These days the pig would probably become a field trial champion quite easily (especially if it was owned by one of the KC good ole boys!).

 

[Alec Swan]

All so often, a breed of dog which has been bred to work, but which for generations, has only known the show bench, will tend to be a trifle brainless!!

I suppose that an outcross back to a working line may improve tractability, with some breeds, but with the Pointer, even the working strains tend to be free spirits! There's a good reason for this; Pointers are expected to range over vast moorland areas, in their search for grouse, and an obedient heel walking dog would all so often be considered sticky, and unwilling to move too far from the handler.

Apart from one wild-as-a-hawk dog which came to stay with me for a while, I've had little or nothing to do with them. I have watched them when they've been used for walking up partridges on low ground, and they are fascinating to watch.

For the OP, if you intend that any puppies which you breed would go for a show bench led career, then I'd stick with using a show dog. If they are to go as pets, then using a trial dog may have some benefits, but what ever you decide, you will still have a Pointer!

There was very useful little book, published in 1973, called Training Setters and Pointers for Field Trials, by John Beazely, Alf Manners and Arnold White-Robinson. It has long been out of print, and is now sought out by the collector, sadly. If you can't find a copy, then you can have mine, if you wish.

In a previous post, you said that your trainer said that your bitch should be used for work, but that you said that she didn't seem that keen on retrieving. If I had a Pointer, then I would never ask it to retrieve, especially if I wanted it to carry out its intended function, pointing.

Alec.

Ets, Dry Rot, I've just read your last post. Well said! a.

 

[Dry Rot]

All so often, a breed of dog which has been bred to work, but which for generations, has only known the show bench, will tend to be a trifle brainless!!

I suppose that an outcross back to a working line may improve tractability, with some breeds, but with the Pointer, even the working strains tend to be free spirits! There's a good reason for this; Pointers are expected to range over vast moorland areas, in their search for grouse, and an obedient heel walking dog would all so often be considered sticky, and unwilling to move too far from the handler.

Apart from one wild-as-a-hawk dog which came to stay with me for a while, I've had little or nothing to do with them. I have watched them when they've been used for walking up partridges on low ground, and they are fascinating to watch.

For the OP, if you intend that any puppies which you breed would go for a show bench led career, then I'd stick with using a show dog. If they are to go as pets, then using a trial dog may have some benefits, but what ever you decide, you will still have a Pointer!

There was very useful little book, published in 1973, called Training Setters and Pointers for Field Trials, by John Beazely, Alf Manners and Arnold White-Robinson. It has long been out of print, and is now sought out by the collector, sadly. If you can't find a copy, then you can have mine, if you wish.

In a previous post, you said that your trainer said that your bitch should be used for work, but that you said that she didn't seem that keen on retrieving. If I had a Pointer, then I would never ask it to retrieve, especially if I wanted it to carry out its intended function, pointing.

Alec.

Ets, Dry Rot, I've just read your last post. Well said! a.

And there's "Pointers and Setters" by someone called Derry Argue. I think Coch-y-bondu books might still have a copy. Yes, here it is: http://www.anglebooks.com/product.php?xProd=29026 . Nice pictures anyway.

I think we have similar minds, Alec!

 

[galaxy]

Sorry, missed that
Well done for having her x-rayed, especially if it isn't the done thing, the 'just one of those things' outlook drives me mad!!!

Line breeding for the wrong reasons (what do they say, it's inbreeding if you don't know what you're doing, linebreeding if you do?) and putting fingers in ears and singing 'lalalalalala, nothing bad will happen' has been the downfall of a lot of breeds, I wish more people would look beyond the end of their nose and think about what is beneficial to the breed as a whole.

I can only really speak for GSPs, but when talking to Harley's Dad's owner, she said that HD is incredibly uncommon in the breed. In fact I think she went as far as saying she didn't know of any with bad hips (she breeds, shows and judges them). However she does still hip score her dogs. I think H's dad had a score of 2. It was just when I was talking to her about being so careful with him when he was young she told me not to have sleepless nights about it!! I was still very careful, but you get the jist of what I'm saying!