Working from behind in trot?

[alice.j]

So, the photos from my recent (disastrous) dressage test are up, and since I've never really seen myself riding the spotty pony, they're really interesting. He looks really smart in walk, moving forwards with a nice shape, especially his neck and head position. Comparing them to photos of us trotting, he has his nose in the air and a very straight, upwards-pointing neck. (Luckily they didn't put up any photos of us going sideways!)
He's 5, only been under saddle for 5 months, and I'm far from a professional rider, so I wasn't expecting us to be perfect! I know he's still finding his balance in trot, and isn't strong enough to hold himself like he does in walk just yet, but his canter feels a lot more 'collected' than I would expect at this stage, when comparing to his trot - he feels more together, his nose doesn't stick out very much, and it feels like he's pushing himself from behind rather than pulling himself along (we've been cantering about a month, and only when hacking).
What can I do to help him work his back end and engage his top line? We have done a little pole work, and I'm going to start doing more of this. We have a lot of hills where we are, so I do a lot of trotting up those! Lots of transition work, especially into canter and into walk, from trot. I don't want to force his nose down without him engaging from behind, but it's definitely time for us to really start working on this. Has anyone got anymore tips or tricks?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Micropony]

I am no expert and you will probably get much better advice than others, but I think they have to work harder walking up hills than always trotting. My first horse was weak behind when I got him and I was told to do collected walk in an outline up hills, some in competition outline, some long and low. Also poles and raised poles. With my 4yo (backed late 2014) I am doing baby laterals and lots of transitions to get him working forward from behind, and then the head position just sorts itself out.
Beware of collected-feeling canter, that's what I thought I was feeling on my baby, but trainer is very clear (and it's obvious when I get someone to video me) that it's just lacking impulsion and needs to be more forward. Not saying that's the case for you, you probably have much better feel than I do, but possibly worth checking x

 

[PorkChop]

I agree with Micropony, that walking up hills is much more beneficial than trotting - and don't be fooled by the canter feeling collected and nice, this usually means it is too pretty and they are closing it down because they are finding it hard!

Soooo, I am also no expert but I would be doing canter poles to get the hind legs opening up. Do loads of transitions, keep him guessing and dare him to carry himself.

Don't focus too much on photos, whilst very useful they are just a moment in time and you will learn a lot more by watching a video of your test.

I try and focus on keeping a rhythm, and a steady contact with elastic feels on the rein - but they are all different and I am sure a good instructor will explain the best way to ride your boy

 

[alice.j]

I am no expert and you will probably get much better advice than others, but I think they have to work harder walking up hills than always trotting. My first horse was weak behind when I got him and I was told to do collected walk in an outline up hills, some in competition outline, some long and low. Also poles and raised poles. With my 4yo (backed late 2014) I am doing baby laterals and lots of transitions to get him working forward from behind, and then the head position just sorts itself out.
Beware of collected-feeling canter, that's what I thought I was feeling on my baby, but trainer is very clear (and it's obvious when I get someone to video me) that it's just lacking impulsion and needs to be more forward. Not saying that's the case for you, you probably have much better feel than I do, but possibly worth checking x

I agree with Micropony, that walking up hills is much more beneficial than trotting - and don't be fooled by the canter feeling collected and nice, this usually means it is too pretty and they are closing it down because they are finding it hard!

Soooo, I am also no expert but I would be doing canter poles to get the hind legs opening up. Do loads of transitions, keep him guessing and dare him to carry himself.

Don't focus too much on photos, whilst very useful they are just a moment in time and you will learn a lot more by watching a video of your test.

I try and focus on keeping a rhythm, and a steady contact with elastic feels on the rein - but they are all different and I am sure a good instructor will explain the best way to ride your boy

Thanks both! I'll definitely walk up more hills now, I'd never really thought about it being harder in walk!
I really try to push him forwards when we canter out, he definitely backs away sometimes but a bit of a squeeze and he does start to stretch out, more so now he's getting stronger. I understand what you're both saying about it possibly being a lack of impulsion, the few times I've cantered him in the arena it's been a lot smaller and 'prettier', which is why I'm doing so much more of it hacking than schooling right now. I'll be keeping an eye and making sure he doesn't start backing off more!

I'm hoping to have a lesson with my friend's dressage instructor in the next couple of weeks (she's going to nationals this month so I think she has at least 2 lessons booked already!), even if it's just 20 minutes walk and trot. My other aim for this month is to get him cantering forwards in the arena, so canter poles will come soon! If I can find something he won't spook at to raise the poles, I'll start doing those too.
I'll school him tomorrow, lots to work on already, but you've been a lot of help! Any more ideas, please keep them coming!

 

[Barnacle]

Something worth remembering is that "working in an outline" or "working from behind" require that the horse is built for it. That is, the muscles have to be developed appropriately for them to be able to do this. Otherwise you have to pull them into an awkward position to pretend the horse is going how you want it to - when it really isn't.

The reason this is important to keep in mind is that, as with any muscle training, if you aren't training the right muscles, it won't be beneficial... If your horse trots around with an upside-down neck and his back in a 'U', he'll never exercise the correct muscle for going round and working from behind... So while I disagree that walking up a hill is harder than trotting up it, it definitely won't pay off to be trotting up hills in an inverted frame...

Everything you do should be geared towards building the right muscle groups. IMO that means a lot of work stretched out on a loose rein in trot/canter and more collected as well as relaxed work in walk, since that sounds like it's already fairly established. You can lunge, free school or ride - doesn't really matter. Lots of transitions, lots of pole work, maybe a few small jumps to get the hind end working. But especially lots of rhythmical work on a loose rein focusing on balancing the horse with your inside leg and asking for appropriate bend with seat/leg to get the horse stepping under.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Physio has suggested 6 weeks walking for my palo mare I posted about. Just because she's so weak, she thinks while there is nothing wrong with her now, if I don't increase her muscle she will end up with problems. Am devising as many hills in one route as possible!

 

[EQUIDAE]

I'd second hills and poles. In the school work on an active trot that is really tracking up before you even think about the head. The key with asking to soften through the jaw is for you to soften the second they do, but without dropping the contact. I find the easiest way to achieve this is to keep a contact on the outside rein and reward softness with a 'poke' with the knuckle on the neck with the inside hand. I don't mean to actually 'poke' them but to touch with the knuckle to indicate that is what you want (and a vocal 'good'). You must immediately reward the desired frame or they will never understand. I saw a good thing the other day which illustrated it well...

Teacher "what day is it"
Student "Tuesday"
Teacher "What day is it?"
Student "The 2nd"
Teacher "What day is it?"
student "????? Wtf ?????"

Same with horses - if you don't tell them they are doing it right (even for the briefest of moments) they will never know what you are asking.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

When you trot while hacking, make sure that your trot is slow enough to be balanced. Often if the trot quickens, it becomes unbalanced and on the forehand.

 

[Barnacle]

To reward a horse for softening, you have to soften the rein... words and hand gestures are arbitrary unless you teach those first!

 

[wench]

Something I have used to great effect recently is to get a rope head collar, watch some videos on you tube, and taught my horse how to yield to pressure.

This then helps when it comes to ridden work, especially if your horse is like mine and does it's best to be a giraffe.

I'm not saying force the horse into an outline, but if you can encourage the front end to be soft, it will help the overall picture, instead of the giraffe mode and developing the wrong muscles

 

[acorn92x]

Jumping on this thread a bit here but I recently brought a 7 y/o cob who has basically just been hacked so all of this schooling lark is very new to her! I just wanted to say that some of these comments are really useful - she's benefitted so much from transitions and feels so much more balanced and together already and that is basically all we have done. We have also done a little bit over poles, with her being allowed to stretch down with me asking for more contact with each time we go over - this has been very helpful too; I've really felt her backend starting to come underneath her! It's all about time, patience and not rushing with this one - muscles don't suddenly appear overnight and everything will come into place in good time once the horse is ready

 

[alice.j]

Something worth remembering is that "working in an outline" or "working from behind" require that the horse is built for it. That is, the muscles have to be developed appropriately for them to be able to do this. Otherwise you have to pull them into an awkward position to pretend the horse is going how you want it to - when it really isn't.

The reason this is important to keep in mind is that, as with any muscle training, if you aren't training the right muscles, it won't be beneficial... If your horse trots around with an upside-down neck and his back in a 'U', he'll never exercise the correct muscle for going round and working from behind... So while I disagree that walking up a hill is harder than trotting up it, it definitely won't pay off to be trotting up hills in an inverted frame...

Everything you do should be geared towards building the right muscle groups. IMO that means a lot of work stretched out on a loose rein in trot/canter and more collected as well as relaxed work in walk, since that sounds like it's already fairly established. You can lunge, free school or ride - doesn't really matter. Lots of transitions, lots of pole work, maybe a few small jumps to get the hind end working. But especially lots of rhythmical work on a loose rein focusing on balancing the horse with your inside leg and asking for appropriate bend with seat/leg to get the horse stepping under.

A few people have recommended using bungees (fairly loosely) just to encourage the correct shape; I've always tried to make sure he's as close to the right frame as possible, especially when schooling, but currently it only really works if I do endless trot circles (he bends quite nicely into them and brings his nose down). I have lunged him in them a couple of times, and they do help when it finally clicks, but not ridden in them as I worry about him leaning on me to evade them - I used to have a horse that did this, no matter how loose the bungees were.
Loose rein work sounds like a good idea, we might need to buck up our leg steering though!

Physio has suggested 6 weeks walking for my palo mare I posted about. Just because she's so weak, she thinks while there is nothing wrong with her now, if I don't increase her muscle she will end up with problems. Am devising as many hills in one route as possible!

Ah, I'm not sure I can go for a flat hack where I am!

I'd second hills and poles. In the school work on an active trot that is really tracking up before you even think about the head. The key with asking to soften through the jaw is for you to soften the second they do, but without dropping the contact. I find the easiest way to achieve this is to keep a contact on the outside rein and reward softness with a 'poke' with the knuckle on the neck with the inside hand. I don't mean to actually 'poke' them but to touch with the knuckle to indicate that is what you want (and a vocal 'good'). You must immediately reward the desired frame or they will never understand. I saw a good thing the other day which illustrated it well...

Teacher "what day is it"
Student "Tuesday"
Teacher "What day is it?"
Student "The 2nd"
Teacher "What day is it?"
student "????? Wtf ?????"

Same with horses - if you don't tell them they are doing it right (even for the briefest of moments) they will never know what you are asking.

I do this already, he sometimes ignores it though! I guess that's babies for you! He's quite nervy, so I've got used to praising him the second he does something I want, like walk past a scary puddle or a scary log or a scary fern bush (you wouldn't believe he ran on the Forest for nearly 5 years!). I think sometimes my signals could be clearer, so I'm working on that really hard, I think beginning to have lessons with him will really help.

When you trot while hacking, make sure that your trot is slow enough to be balanced. Often if the trot quickens, it becomes unbalanced and on the forehand.

There is a fine line between balanced slow trotting and lacking impulsion trotting, so again this is something I'm really focusing on. Definitely something for me to keep in mind!

Something I have used to great effect recently is to get a rope head collar, watch some videos on you tube, and taught my horse how to yield to pressure.

This then helps when it comes to ridden work, especially if your horse is like mine and does it's best to be a giraffe.

I'm not saying force the horse into an outline, but if you can encourage the front end to be soft, it will help the overall picture, instead of the giraffe mode and developing the wrong muscles

I will have to have a look for some of these videos!

Jumping on this thread a bit here but I recently brought a 7 y/o cob who has basically just been hacked so all of this schooling lark is very new to her! I just wanted to say that some of these comments are really useful - she's benefitted so much from transitions and feels so much more balanced and together already and that is basically all we have done. We have also done a little bit over poles, with her being allowed to stretch down with me asking for more contact with each time we go over - this has been very helpful too; I've really felt her backend starting to come underneath her! It's all about time, patience and not rushing with this one - muscles don't suddenly appear overnight and everything will come into place in good time once the horse is ready

Patience is so important, I know so many people who tend to rush their horses because things aren't appearing suddenly! I'm really pleased with where we are, and just need to focus on where to go next! Glad your mare is coming along nicely



Thanks all! I'm going to school him this morning so I shall report back!!