Working hunter scoring/judging dispute????

[Kennels77]

Hi everyone, I just want to get your thoughts on if I am right or can give me guidance on rules etc?
I have started doing a few local working hunter classes, my 1st one was fab as won the novice, the open and the championship and a couple been placed etc. I have made sure got a snaffle in, a plain cavesson noseband and no martingales etc.
As I know it the scoring is done on Jumping, Show and confirmation etc. My horse always does a lovely show but has a tendency to through a buck in just before the gallop which I agree should be marked down on in the show score section, which is fine. however just done a show today and she did the most beautiful show and again put in a Little buck, the judge then didn't place me ( I believe in show horse, riding horse a buck means cant be placed but not workers?) baring in mind most the horses flew round with their heads in the air, striking off on wrong legs etc, boots on, martingales and gags! I got told that she couldn't place me as the buck meant I couldnt be placed, as it meant out of control in the ring!(I wasnt out of control, it's just her little thing!!!!) surely I should off been marked down on the show bit then placed where relevant? What makes me mad is that when I chatted to her about why not Getting a place she said at county show level I would be thrown out etc for disobedience, so why follow through with that but let all the tack wrongness and people with boots on etc be placed? In the show be my friend pointed out a massive scar under her horses boot and she replied ohhh it's only a little show!!! Surely that contradicting be consistent if judging?
When I won the previous ones the judge even said to me, thAt was a close one as she bucked so he had to Mark her down and I won by 1 point? Just wanting people's thoughts really.
In fact it got my goat so much I withdrew from every other class and went home?

 

[Lolo]

See, for any type of WH class I'd want a horse with impeccable manners. No offence, but I wouldn't want a horse who bucked in gallop- not very practical out hunting for me, no matter how small the bucks are!!

I would suggest working out a way of doing a extended canter without that happening... Even though the other horses are more bitted up, at least they aren't bucking. Some judges could refuse to ride her on that basis too...

 

[Erin]

What makes me mad is that when I chatted to her about why not Getting a place she said at county show level I would be thrown out etc for disobedience, so why follow through with that but let all the tack wrongness and people with boots on etc be placed?

You wouldn't be thrown out of a county level class for one buck.

Unfortunately there are people judging at local level who don't really know what they are doing!

Chalk it up to experience and practice your gallop and work out why your pony is bucking and what you could do to avoid it

 

[Zebedee]

If you are going to show you need to get used to things like this happening at all levels I'm afraid.
Judging is subjective even when there are marks. One judges 8 is anothers 5. I have seen a horse sent out of the ring at county level for sticking in a small buck during the gallop, and on another occassion one that had produced several ggod bucks placed third.
All you can do is chalk it up to experience and move on.If you feel that strongly make a note of the judges name and don't go under her again, at least until you've resolved the issue with the buck.

 

[be positive]

You wouldnt get thrown out for a buck and at county level the judge would ride,you wouldnt do a show anyway.
A working hunter can be shown in any suitable tack inc.martingale.Boots can be worn for jumping but should be removed for the show part.They will not get marked down for the tack although some judges will think it good to see a horse in a simple snaffle.
As others have said chalk it up to experience and try and get rid of the bucking,it may help if you think more of gradually extending rather than galloping.

 

[MissSBird]

I'm afraid you're a bit mis-informed. Any tack (except bitless) is acceptable in workers, though it is always best to be as simple as you can be. Scars are also more forgiveable as these horses should, in theory, be hunting.

In showing, particularly at local level, judges have different priorities. For most, given that in most local classes there's always someone in the wrong kit/unsure what they are doing, behaviour often takes precidence. What you deem to be 'her thing' is bad behaviour. Perhaps the judge was slightly harsh in placing, but they'll have had their reasons. It's all about their opinion and this is local showing I'm afraid!

You really need to work on this problem, however, rather than accepting it. You could easily get a judge ride in workers and you could get into a fair bit of trouble for presenting a horse that bucks, however small, for the judge to ride.

 

[Kennels77]

Hi,
thanks for the replies. I know about boots in jumping but most of them kept them on etc and I don't appreciate judges misinforming, instead of marking appropriately, I thought shows like that are supposed to be encouraging. Its not a malicious buck, it's an enjoying myself whoopee buck, sometimes she does it, sometimes not, there isn't a problem, I have her back, saddle and teeth checked at least twice yearly which is more then most, she just enjoys her work!
I just thought I would do something to pass the time before hunting starts! All I know is that I wouldn't want to be sat on anything else out hunting, she jumps the biggest and trappiest fences, from a trot at times to be careful, she is foot sure and would never tip up! She goes 1st and last, field masters, whips in, goes away from the field with no fuss and for that I love her. You go to any competition yard and most of the top horses has a quirk or 2 and for her that is just a little quirk that not even worth getting worked up about!! however if she reared constantly buck maliciously, won't stand still and constantly naps and wont even go into the ring then I would have an issue and be trying to sort it!

 

[SmallHunter]

But for showing it is NOT acceptable to buck especially on a hunter they are supposed to have perfect manners. Even an excitable buck I would expect to be put down pretty low.

 

[FMM]

But show horses are not meant to buck! Irrespective of whether they are workers or riding horses. They are meant to be mannerly.

Front boots (not back ones) are allowed during the jumping phase. They must be removed for the flat phase.

Martingales, gags, doubles, snaffles - doesn't matter what you use for tack pretty much in a workers class. Clearly there is some sort of problem with your horse if it bucks every time you ask it to gallop. I suggest you ease into gallop rather than firing into it - that may help - but you need to get it sorted if you want to be placed consistently!

 

[Lolo]

It doesn't matter how nicely she goes out hunting, if she bucks she's not got perfect manners and will drop in the line up. Is it just excitement because maybe lots of practising getting her to just extend will help?

 

[LEC]

Some judges might tolerate it more if they really like the horse over other judges. It would be down to individual opinion how highly they rated the disobedience.

 

[Kennels77]

I am not arguing about a buck or not when it's not malicious and it's not all the time she gallops and I can certainly tell you it's NOT bad manners, it's enjoyment at doing her job! If she was doing a rodeo act, bolted and I wasnt in control then yes disobedience, I would agree but, as it was just like a flying change and hardly noticeable then why weren't marks adjusted!
ALL I am trying to say is the marks should have been adjusted, yes I can appreciate I will drop in line as the marks should adjusted and but not disqualified and regarding the boots on other horses they were on all 4 legs jumping and showing.
It's the same if a 4 faulter beats a clear round be because their Showing was better the marks are adjusted, surely as a clear rounder didn't knock any it should win?
Two good examples today at a county show that a showing friend was at, her horse which had 4 faults and came 3rd beat clear rounders because their showing was better but the 1st and 2nd placed horses had done exactly the same as my horse and marks were adjusted accordingly but added up they won etc!

So when a show jumper/ eventer etc lands after a fence and gives a little buck for enjoyment is that bad manners, no it's just enjoying itself!

 

[be positive]

It is showing and at the end of the day it is the judges opinion that counts,whether you like it or not.
The same happens in dressage for one judge bad manners is anothers showing some enthusiasm.

 

[FMM]

Clearly you don't see it as a problem, so enjoy

 

[siennamum]

Local level showing is so frustrating, you have to simply enjoy the day regardless.

We were put below hunters today, who bucked, reared in the line up, cantered repeatedly on the wrong leg, wore boots in the show, dished for England, riders who wore body protectors throughout, carried schooling whips cantered aimlessly round and round with no purpose and hadn'[t bothered plaiting. You clearly would have done better at our show OP, bucking was fine.

 

[Honey08]

The buck must have been more than "barely noticable" if you were marked down for it. Sorry, but I'm another one that thinks that manners should be perfect for showing, even in WH. At the end of the day, even with workers, its down to the judges opinion to some extent.

I'm also a bit put out when something that wins the open and the championship goes in the novice at local level. At our local shows that wouldn't be allowed. If you enter novice, you could enter intermediate but not open.

ps. Don't mean to sound like I'm attacking you. My own horse will win the workers hands down, but can sometimes "hop" anticipating canter, and on the days that she does that I don't expect to win...

 

[Gamebird]

I have a horse which is not at all flashy and is generally pulled in half way down the line-up but inevitably gets pulled up into a decent placing after the judge rides (or individual show, if the judge doesn't ride) as it has impeccable manners. This is at county level.
Inevitably this means that better looking, but less well behaved animals will have been put down the line in order for us to move up.

It sounds like you have the hunter of a lifetime. Why not stick to that or HT/team chasing etc.?

 

[AFlapjack]

My pony bucks for enjoyment especially when we first start warming up for jumping.

I went to a local show that didn't have a practice fence (another story!) so had to go into the workers without jumping (magic panic as I KNEW he would throw a buck at some point having not got it out of his system in the warm up).

OMG he was such an embarrassment and bucked after nearly every fence I know he does it because he enjoys jumping but it was down right rude of him to do so and he should have known better!!! I know it isn't the same as one buck asking for a gallop but it's still a manners issue whether they buck for enjoyment or not and should be marked down accordingly.

Also most clear rounds are usually placed above 4 faulters unless they REALLY mess up their shows. The jumping takes precedence.

 

[rambling]

Judges have got much stricter about bad behaviour ( which a buck is in a show class ) recently . At the RDS this year anything which put a foot wrong got the gate immediately .
This was probably as a result of a judge having a broken back in the last couple of years.
Can't blame them really they just want to discourage people from showing horses which may be dangerous.

I realise you don't see it like that but you may need to do something about it if you wish to continue showing .
Ireland may well have a bad rep with the English judges after that incident but it won't be long till the same happens in England

 

[Zebedee]

I am not arguing about a buck or not when it's not malicious and it's not all the time she gallops and I can certainly tell you it's NOT bad manners, it's enjoyment at doing her job! If she was doing a rodeo act, bolted and I wasnt in control then yes disobedience,

It was still a buck. If she does it everytime she gallops has it occurred to you that the judges who previously placed you highly may have been wrong?

I would agree but, as it was just like a flying change and hardly noticeable then why weren't marks adjusted!
ALL I am trying to say is the marks should have been adjusted, yes I can appreciate I will drop in line as the marks should adjusted and but not disqualified and regarding the boots on other horses they were on all 4 legs jumping and showing.

Marks once given to the steward & written on to the score sheet should NEVER be adjusted.

It's the same if a 4 faulter beats a clear round be because their Showing was better the marks are adjusted, surely as a clear rounder didn't knock any it should win?
Two good examples today at a county show that a showing friend was at, her horse which had 4 faults and came 3rd beat clear rounders because their showing was better but the 1st and 2nd placed horses had done exactly the same as my horse and marks were adjusted accordingly but added up they won etc!

WH Marks are given as follows at SHBGB affiliated shows. 40 (max) for actual jumping, 20 (max) for style of jumping, 20 (max) for ride (may be ind show at local level) & 20 (max) for conformation. So a well made horse who has jumped out of a good forward pace but rolled a pole will most likely be placed above something that looks like a camel, & has cat-leapt round clear from a trot. If it was just about jumping clear it would be called ' show jumping' not 'working hunter'

So when a show jumper/ eventer etc lands after a fence and gives a little buck for enjoyment is that bad manners, no it's just enjoying itself!

No one gives a stuff whether or not a show jumper bucks provided it still jumps clear , but then show jumping isn't showing.