Working in an outline - for us or the horse?

[Little Rose Bud]

Does anyone know why we insist that horses work in an outline? Is it actually of any benefit to them? Or is it just to give us better control?

It's one of those things I've always just gone along with. I've never thought to question it until breaking and schooling Rosie, I have no intention of doing dressage or showing with her and it got me wondering why she really needs to have her head down etc etc. She will carry a lovely outline in walk and we're getting there in trot, but is there any real benefit to her?

 

[Tern]

They can hollow their back with a high head carriage which overall makes the horse "in control" (not the right words but hopefully you know what I mean) and weak over the back.

 

[tankgirl1]

I thought it was the optimum position for them to carry the weight of the rider? Happy to be corrected though, and I never make my mare work in an outline, and I don't think they do in western riding either?

 

[nato]

Think of it in terms of posture for humans. Imagine sitting or standing all day with your back arched - I'm talking butt out,small of back arched in and shoulder blades back - it's not comfortable. Even in the saddle we have a tendency to arch the back instead of being straight through the back when trying to sit up. It's not comfortable and really gives you lower back and shoulder pain.

Works the same for horses. Carrying a rider and a saddle on your back when it is hollow (aka arched) is bad for your back, shoulder, pelvis etc muscles. Working in a TRUE outline/frame encourages the back to lift, distributing the weight more evenly, taking pressure off the spine and legs, and also encourages correct muscle development throughout the body (hind end and neck in particular).

Similar to why humans work out and need to do it correctly to avoid damage, working correctly from behind through the back results in well developed, stronger muscles for the horse - thus giving them a better chance of avoiding/recovering from injury, and giving them longevity in their careers/lives.

 

[pennyturner]

OP, I think it's a very fair question, and shows that you are really thinking about your horse. I agree with the other posters with regards to a horse which is being asked to do schooling work, involving collecting his strides, tight turns etc. Great for dressage and bull-fighting. However, I do not necessarily agree that it is best for a horse to be constantly 'engaged' outside of the school. If you're covering distances out hacking, or driving cattle from Texas to Tennessee, your horse will thank you for allowing him to develop a natural carriage.

 

[GemG]

Interesting topic actually. I am totally a 'schooling type' rider and totally agree with other posters about developing correct musculature that enables horse to carry us better etc with less chance of injury.

However, look at western riding. I don't know a huge amount about it, but obviously they have a 'faster than walk' type jog but not as energy consuming as a proper impulsive trot that they can comfortably carry themselves and rider over a longer distance. They are certainly not in any prescribed outline. Western enthusiasts please excuse my explanation of above, but think folks will catch my drift.

Endurance riding - outline - certain not when covering a distance , too energy consuming.

So in short, I think it's for us, to enable us to enjoy the full power, torque and the thrill of riding a well schooled, powerful feeling 'engine' so to speak. To utilise the full range of gears within paces. Although correct schooling will have knock on benefits for horse too as discussed.

I am in the 'bit of both' camp. I enjoy and try to achieve correct outline (along with everything else) during schooling (note try!!) and when asked for out hacking but I also enjoy letting the horse have time out, hacking on a long rein, letting him have a nosey at the world, pottering past the cows and not having to concentrate endlessly and be in a permanent state of 'perfect contained energy' lol.

 

[Tobiano]

I read a great explanation in Sylvia Loch's book, basically she describes it as being much healthier for the horse.

Interestingly at my RS they don't refer to it as an outline but as being 'through' or 'working over their back' which is a better description I think. It is the difference between using the hind legs to propel the horse vs using the front legs to drag it. Intuitively as 2/3 of the horse's weight is balanced towards the front legs, it must be beneficial to even this up a bit more (I think).

Oh plus, it looks prettier

Oh, ETA, I believe a properly schooled horse can also be working over his back when 'long and low' so riding on the buckle on a hack can also be beneficial if you do it right.

 

[BraidedTail]

I read a great explanation in Sylvia Loch's book, basically she describes it as being much healthier for the horse.

Interestingly at my RS they don't refer to it as an outline but as being 'through' or 'working over their back' which is a better description I think. It is the difference between using the hind legs to propel the horse vs using the front legs to drag it. Intuitively as 2/3 of the horse's weight is balanced towards the front legs, it must be beneficial to even this up a bit more (I think).

Oh plus, it looks prettier

Oh, ETA, I believe a properly schooled horse can also be working over his back when 'long and low' so riding on the buckle on a hack can also be beneficial if you do it right.

Good explanation - last sentence actually kind of explains the western 'outline' too - They should have an outline, if you want to call it that, but more of a natural one than english - Western is all about self carraige; i.e. working through the back and carrying themselves in an outline but without being 'held' there by hands and leg. Properly Western trained horses don't just slop along by themselves, they are schooled to carry themselves properly without being constantly 'told' to do so. The back end should be working through and underneath and front end not either nose poking out or overbent, or too low or too high. I'm not an expert though and actually rubbish at explaining things too so please someone else explain it better!

 

[southerncomfort]

Great question!

My welsh D thinks she is a quarter horse! I've spent so much time trying to teach her to come up on to the bit but she is 22 now and frankly she prefers to it when we hack out on the buckle with a long and low frame.

I absolutely do not let her slop along though and still push her up to the bridle.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Ultimately, working in an outline is done because it's better for the horse for all the reasons already mentioned. Evolution developed the horse to be fit for the purpose of being a horse but adding a rider changes the horses centre of gravity, hence the need for a different outline for the horse to work to its best ability and stay sounder for longer. It has become fashionable though and many attempt what looks like an outline without knowing how to achieve it properly and that's more detrimental to the horse than being left as nature intended. As a child, very few people I knew were interested in riding in an outline, the focus was more on overall balance of horse and rider. Now the focus on "outline" seems to eclipse all else, including riding position and application of the aids, suppleness of the horse etc. I see people trying to shortcut straight to an outline when all the basics necessary for achieving it aren't there. I don't think such practices are for the good of the horse but done for the rider.

Western horses do work in an outline, they shouldn't be allowed to slop along on the forehand any more than an English trained horse should. It's just a different outline due to the type of work. In western riding the horse is supposed to expend minimal energy covering the distance and be comfortable for the rider so they expend minimal energy too. So no bouncy paces full of collected impulsion and high knee/hock action because that takes more effort to maintain for the horse and more effort for the rider to sit on without bouncing everywhere. The flatter, more relaxed paces of the western horse are more economical in terms of energy and it's done so horse and rider can last all day. But the western horse should still be balanced, in self carriage and working through from behind, just not generally asked for much collection that's all. Of course there are poorly trained western horses out there who are totally on the forehand and moving no better than a riding school plodder with a novice on top. Western riding feels closer to a long-and-low outline in English riding than to a dressage/sj outline. Just as in English riding there is more to long-and-low work than dropping your reins and holding the buckle end, it's the same for western.

How easy a horse finds working in a traditional English dressage horse outline will depend on their conformation. For English riding a horse built naturally uphill with expressive paces will have an advantage. For western riding a horse with a naturally horizontal frame and economical leg action is best.

 

[npage123]

I'm no expert, but do feel the overwhelming majority of riders attempting or working towards riding in a shall we say dressagey/'classic' outline, go about it incorrectly and force the horse in an unnatural outline with unforgiving, hard hands. First achieve a true working trot, get their hindquarters engaged properly and then wait for acceptance of the bit at the front end to come naturally. I really don't like seeing a poor horse being continuously jabbed in the mouth just for the sake of getting their nose tucked in or riding along overbent. And I despise rollkur - surely this should be made illegal.

 

[Cortez]

In theory a horse which carries its back up and rounded is more efficient and better balanced when under the rider, this is achieved by training the horse to move forwards with the hind legs coming further under the body, sitting more behind and consequently raising the shoulders, neck and head. The horse needs to be "strung like a bow" between the driving force of the hind leg motivated by the rider's leg aids and the restraining signals from the hand/rein/bit.

However, after more than 40 years of taining horses to go like this and fervently believing that this is the "best" way for horses to carry themselves (and us), I cannot fail to notice that the vast majority of actual working horses that are required to work hard and stay sound (ranch horses ridden western, Mongolian horses, endurance, racing, hunter) are not ridden like this. Curious...........

 

[pennyturner]

I once read that in the 17th century there was a famous preacher (think it was Wesley, but can't remember) of limited means who was able to finance his wandering ministry by buying horses known for stumbling. As he rode, often hundreds of miles, he used to read his bible on a loose rein, allowing the horse to find his own footing.

The improvement in his steed's fitness and balance over such large distances cured the stumbling and allowed him to sell it for good money on arrival.

 

[planete]

It is one way of making the horse' s back stay up under the rider's weight instead of dropping into a hammock shape which weakens it and leads to injury. No successful riding horse, be it western, classical, racing, endurance or just as a mount for a herding nomad drops his back. Watch a film of a mongolian horse ridden at full gallop, he has learnt to keep his back up even if he is not in an outline. As Cortez seems to imply, I feel that perhaps we have forgotten something? Pack animals do not drop their backs under their loads either but being allowed to move freely without a rider's interference are able to find the most effective way of coping with the weight and move with their heads fairly low and their top line stretched upwards, a bit like western horses.

 

[tallyho!]

Does anyone know why we insist that horses work in an outline? Is it actually of any benefit to them? Or is it just to give us better control?

It's one of those things I've always just gone along with. I've never thought to question it until breaking and schooling Rosie, I have no intention of doing dressage or showing with her and it got me wondering why she really needs to have her head down etc etc. She will carry a lovely outline in walk and we're getting there in trot, but is there any real benefit to her?

"In an outline" or "on the bit" are much maligned sentences nowadays.

People assume it means that the horses head is neatly tucked in, looking down at the floor. Whilst the back end does what it wants.

It ought to be replaced with "WORKING FROM BEHIND" or "ON THE AIDS" then it accurately describes what being in a outline/on the bit actually is.

It takes a long time to work from behind correctly and accept the aids, and the appreciation for this has been lost in the race to beat someone for the pot and posy. Many can cheat by buying gadgetry that makes the horse "look" as if it is in an "outline" and you can always tell a bad judge if they award it, rather than award points for a horse that is actually working correctly from behind, is light in the hand and is able to carry a rider in the best way possible.

There are many classical books that do a good job of explaining everything. Sylvia Loch, Alois Podjhadsky, Nuno Oliveira, Mary Wanless... loads.

 

[horsesense]

Most of us know the accepted theories about why it is meant to be better for the horse to work in an outline, but efforts to make the horse move in this way generate a great deal of what amounts to cruelty in so called equitation; I refer to the diversity of gadgets and methods that are employed to coerce, or more frequently force, the horse to carry its body in a particular way which we consider more beautiful. It would seem that very few riders are prepared to undertake the lengthy training of the horse needed to enable it to gradually develop the musculature required to work comfortably in an outline. There is much ill treatment of horses in the pursuit of this objective often by well meaning but badly informed riders. Perhaps they should try to imagine what the horse is physically experiencing as a result of their "training" methods.

 

[Cobbytype]

In theory a horse which carries its back up and rounded is more efficient and better balanced when under the rider, this is achieved by training the horse to move forwards with the hind legs coming further under the body, sitting more behind and consequently raising the shoulders, neck and head. The horse needs to be "strung like a bow" between the driving force of the hind leg motivated by the rider's leg aids and the restraining signals from the hand/rein/bit.

However, after more than 40 years of taining horses to go like this and fervently believing that this is the "best" way for horses to carry themselves (and us), I cannot fail to notice that the vast majority of actual working horses that are required to work hard and stay sound (ranch horses ridden western, Mongolian horses, endurance, racing, hunter) are not ridden like this. Curious...........

It's funny you should mention Mongolian horses, as that was what sprung to my mind when I thought about OP's question. Their heads aren't far off horizontal when ridden, yet it cannot be said that the riders can't 'ride properly', as they seem to be very skillful and adept.

There's no denying that a horse working in a true dressage outline produces a lovely shape which is elegant and pleasing to the eye, it's just a shame that so often nowadays the obsession with getting that shape produces some very tight and uncomfortable looking horses, who look as though an inch or two above the vertical would be a more comfortable, 'free flowing' position for them.

 

[catkin]

In theory a horse which carries its back up and rounded is more efficient and better balanced when under the rider, this is achieved by training the horse to move forwards with the hind legs coming further under the body, sitting more behind and consequently raising the shoulders, neck and head. The horse needs to be "strung like a bow" between the driving force of the hind leg motivated by the rider's leg aids and the restraining signals from the hand/rein/bit.

However, after more than 40 years of taining horses to go like this and fervently believing that this is the "best" way for horses to carry themselves (and us), I cannot fail to notice that the vast majority of actual working horses that are required to work hard and stay sound (ranch horses ridden western, Mongolian horses, endurance, racing, hunter) are not ridden like this. Curious...........

and yet the racer, the hunter, the ranch horse can all 'collect' when they need to/want to......and they do it by rounding their backs, using their hocks, coming into self-carriage etc etc just so long as the rider stays in balance with them

Some food for thought here

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I thought it was the optimum position for them to carry the weight of the rider? Happy to be corrected though, and I never make my mare work in an outline, and I don't think they do in western riding either?

Nor racehorses, where the idea is to train them to win races at the gallop, though they are often trained to take a contact and this is all part of their education early on. even if they never go on to work in an outline, they are all asked to walk out freely every day.
Western horses do various jobs, but generally they have little/no contact on the bit as used inEnglish riding, they are ridden on a pressure release system, and when cutting cattle, they learn how to work, more in the way that a sheepdog works, so they don't seem to need the rider to give aids in the same way, they are very well developed in the forequarters.
I have never been convinced with collection as the main goal, I prefr to adapt to requirements and it is much safer to allow a horse to pick his own way over rough ground, not to rely on instructions from the rider.
I saw a clip of a rider demonstrating how his western horse could pick his own way up and down very dangerous slopes, no english trained horse could have done it.
... and then there are kissing spines ...........

 

[pennyturner]

... and then there are kissing spines ...........

Ooh, now there's a can of worms. Anyone got any statistics on the relative incidence of kissing spine in the UK vs US?

 

[tallyho!]

It's funny you should mention Mongolian horses, as that was what sprung to my mind when I thought about OP's question. Their heads aren't far off horizontal when ridden, yet it cannot be said that the riders can't 'ride properly', as they seem to be very skillful and adept.

There's no denying that a horse working in a true dressage outline produces a lovely shape which is elegant and pleasing to the eye, it's just a shame that so often nowadays the obsession with getting that shape produces some very tight and uncomfortable looking horses, who look as though an inch or two above the vertical would be a more comfortable, 'free flowing' position for them.

So true! Especially considering the conformation - no one seems to take that into account.

A more upright shouldered mongolian pony will never look like an andalusian no matter how hard one tries. Such a compact hardy creature manages fine on its own and the mongolians are wise to this. We should take a leaf out of their book and work with the horse.

A fit horse will always find it easy to carry themselves and do not need gadgets to "teach" them how to go. Fitness and strength are the key and brings good posture but that equates to hard work from both partners.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Both- due to reasons already mentioned. However, I strongly believe it's important to vary the outline for the benefit of the horse.

 

[GemG]

Both- due to reasons already mentioned. However, I strongly believe it's important to vary the outline for the benefit of the horse.

Agree ^^^

 

[gnubee]

I think it's more about collection/impulsion than the outline itself. A horse ridden with collection into an English style rein contact will automatically form that shape . The western horse when collected actually forms a fairly similar shape even on what we would consider a loose rein. Looked at in that way, the question then becomes about the value of collection and impulsion rather than the value of an outline. If you've tried to get walk/canter transitions or jump a horse at the top end of its ability the value of collection becomes very evident. This article explains and illustrates this view of collection for me better than anything else I have ever read:
http://mugwumpchronicles.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/collection-its-all-about-feet.html?m=1

 

[Little Rose Bud]

Wow! Thank you all so much for your replies! Lots to think about, and loads of points I hadn't considered before. Really interesting how different styles of riding and different sports have their different 'outlines' but all are aimed towards the goal of having the horse in balance and working well. When I asked the original question I only really had the traditional 'dressage' outline in mind, and obviously would never dream of having a horse hold that for endurance riding for example, but I will certainly start thinking more about what she is doing with her legs/back when out hacking and try to work out a balance between what she does naturally and what will build better muscles and habits for her.

 

[YorksG]

A horse that works through from the back, with a natural "outline" will have a stronger back than one which does not and that horse will have a stronger back than the one in a false outline. I do wonder if the increased incidence of kissing spines is to do with young stock not being taught to use their back ends, but being forced into a false outline, with a hollow back. I would second reading Sylvia Loch on the subject.

 

[Steorra]

When the horse works in an outline, he engages his core muscles to lift and support his ribcage, which is part of what causes the feeling of rounding the back. The rest comes from stepping under with his hind-legs to distribute his weight more evenly between all four limbs. As he steps through, the quarters lower and the shoulders begin to lift, and this change in balance is what changes the horse’s head-carriage.

Anyone who has had to do a health and safety induction at work, or been shown how to lift in the gym, knows that the safest way to lift a heavy load is with bent knees and engaged core muscles. The horse is doing the same thing when he works in a correct outline. Of course, pulling his head in with the reins is a hindrance rather than a help, in the same way that tucking your chin in artificially doesn’t help you to lift weights safely.

The advantage is both to the horse’s back and legs. The back is stronger when it is supported by the core muscles and the distribution of weight amongst all four legs prevents excessive loading of the front ones.

I agree with the many posters above who say that a correct outline isn’t necessarily a dressage outline. In fact, horses who are not built naturally uphill might never achieve collection in the dressage sense, and actually suffer from being asked to work in a way they aren’t built to support. Some horses are better off in a lower, longer frame, that is still engaged but not collected. However, I think that any horse can be shown how to carry himself effectively, and benefit from exercises for strength and suppleness.

The aesthetic of a round neck and vertical face is based on this idea of collection, but the shape is only helpful to the horse when it comes from correct posture overall, and engagement looks different in different horses. Some will be shorter and higher, some will be longer and lower, some have a thick jowl and find being ‘on the vertical’ uncomfortable. Some have weak quarters or a long, weak back, or are croup high. A correct outline is beneficial but if a horse is struggling to produce the desired shape then it’s worth considering whether he isn’t strong enough or is simply not the right build for the dressage mould. While correct posture is good, roundness isn’t the be-all and end-all, and forcing the issue is not productive.

 

[wkiwi]

I believe that the term is much misused. I always understood the 'dressage' outline was originally the best one for a war horse in battle when it needed to sit on its bum to swing round and clear foot soldiers (pirouette), present an imposing posture to the foot soldiers (passage/piaffe) and leap out of the way while removing some of the enemy at the same time (e.g. capriole). I would have hated to be a foot soldier!

If watching stallions displaying (or other loose horses playing in the paddock), they get that impressive collected outline that allows them to perform all the 'dressage' movements naturally i.e. the outline they assume allows them to harness the power needed to 'show off' to a mare or another stallion. Without the power it is like watching a parody of the real thing, and I think this is what happens with forced outlines in dressage. Of course, the stallion or loose horse doesn't keep the same frame all of the time and certainly not when it is travelling long distances, but they assume the frame most efficient for the purpose at the time.

So, as riders we mess up their balance. Then we want them to have thier beautiful 'showing off' frame on demand. We can either do this by correct training and building up of the muscles; or we can force a similar outline and have a parody of the real thing!

 

[DD]

there's a new horsey person in our village. recently i went hacking with her. her 5 yr old is brain dead goes in an outline like an automaton. poor thing. my youngster is interested in whats going on. she didnt even introduce the horse to us and we had to ask its name. its been over schooled and asked to do too much but she does dressage and x country with it and needs it do do what she wants or presumably it will be sold on.
i feel sorry for it. myself and my friends horses arnt made to work in outlines or do things detrimental to their welfare.

 

[tallyho!]

there's a new horsey person in our village. recently i went hacking with her. her 5 yr old is brain dead goes in an outline like an automaton. poor thing. my youngster is interested in whats going on. she didnt even introduce the horse to us and we had to ask its name. its been over schooled and asked to do too much but she does dressage and x country with it and needs it do do what she wants or presumably it will be sold on.
i feel sorry for it. myself and my friends horses arnt made to work in outlines or do things detrimental to their welfare.

I assume you mean a false outline? As in head tucked in with no engagement whatsoever?

If it works into the outline (working over the back/through from behind) we are all talking about in this thread then it's good for the horse.