Working Plummers?

[tweedette]

Yet again an uphill struggle ......from the same forum

Then we saw this - same forum,

Well decided to have a walk out this morning with my plummer bitch and few of mates dogs at around 8:15. We walked down a railway banking where there were a few nice spots for the odd fox. The terriers were working the cover and about 8:45 a big dog fox jumped out the cover a made his way down the tracks until he was out of sight, anyway two of the terriers shortly followed but no sign of my bitch. After fighting our way through the thick bracken we found a tight hole and could hear here baying away. To cut a long story short we got a mark on the locator at 13ft not what we were hoping so we waited for a bolt. 2:1/2 hours later managed to pull the dog out and sure enough a vixen followed. After all that i decided to take the bitch home to rest and heal and we went on to another spot. Soon enough we dropped on again at 4ft thankfully. Dug down and this time the plummer dog had pushed the fox further on so we dug 2ft in front to drop on top of a nice vixen, fox removed, backfilled and dogs home to rest and recover all in all a good day out.


http://workingplummerterrier.org.uk...ction=dlattach;topic=3805.0;attach=4166;image

http://workingplummerterrier.org.uk...ction=dlattach;topic=3805.0;attach=4167;image

http://workingplummerterrier.org.uk...ction=dlattach;topic=3805.0;attach=4171;image
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I congratulated them on their stupidity.................Clever boys well done, did you know we have Toka our resident copper on this site - no gun, two terriers, pictures of yourselves, knocked up dogs - are you bloody daft.
Merry xmas, auntie


A supporter of this kind of thing said...........I think you'll find that Toka isn't a threat on here & any suggestion as such is offensive in the extreme. I hope the "Moddies" are going to do something about this post .

For all those on here who read this I have always found Toka to be both friendly, helpful & discrete. He does not pose a threat to terriermen, terriers or terrier work. Despite what some may say on here


I replied.............A copper is a copper is a copper and not one of them is to be trusted- its their job, they cant turn a blind eye!! , if they are in a situation like this they would have had to investigate, the lads dont even look old enough to have a firearms certificate for dispatching the fox, toka , anyone else who thinks different is as daft as those lads, public exhibitions of bravado isnt big or clever especially when its ilegal, i'll add trespass to the above , lads - and moddies know I'm right!!!


Then the policeman answered
Gotta say i cant see a lot wrong with the post...no mention of permission or not so i presume there was permission, as no one would be so daft as to post and not have it! Yes no mention of a gun but i am sure the foxes were dug to or flushed to one. mentioned only 2 dogs flushing and only one to ground so no probs there.... i would say the photo of the dog with a bit of blood does not show any knocking up [certainly compared to some photos we have seen on forums]...
for those involved i think the most worry would be their pictures up of themselves perhaps?? but then again if they are doing it right they have nothing to hide!!

its all very well for those in their comfortable armchairs to throw criticism at lads who by all accounts are out working their dogs [within the law as far as i can see]. it is nice to see some working posts on a working dog forum but advice or help in the form of pm's could be given instead of instant presumption of guilt from those who are meant to be the stakeholders of a working breed and should know better!!!

only those who have a guilty conscience and something to hide have to worry about the police....have a Merry Christmas all involved.

YIS!

.... i wouldn't bother posting on a working thread again if all you are going to do is knock the lads!!


My gobsmacked reply.................And how many young lads do you know with permission for railway embankments toka? its ok looking at this post through your sympathetic to the cause 'boys' eyes, it would be a different matter if you were wearing a hat and caught them when you had a partner with you - and dont say it wouldnt - after all its yourjob - whos joshing who here? it aint me!

auntie


He actually came back, with...........i have known lads old and young who have had permission on the embankments...around here its certainly wasnt that hard to come across....
hat, partner or not it wouldnt have made a difference...going on the facts as presented there is not a problem...and on a forum that is all there is to go on! Advice instead of scaremongering should be the way forward if you feel there is something being posted that shouldn't? and if it is just a case of not liking the content then just dont.
common sense and discression are two things they havent got rid of yet, either in the police force or in the general population...but sometimes one wonders...

atb


and you wonder what a fight I have and am having. This is just the tip of the iceburg.....

 

[EAST KENT]

Being thick here..so plummers were being worked,is that a problem?Cannot see the pics by the way,and don`t really want to join another forum just to see what this is all about.

 

[s4sugar]

The problem is they are in breach of the hunting ban - more than two dogs.

 

[Maesfen]

The problem is they are in breach of the hunting ban - more than two dogs.

Only theoretically as one was taken home so only two left.

OP; Just why are you trying to shift the dirt, what's the point of it or is it you just like being a snitch and want to cause trouble? Yes, the boys are thick for posting but at that age would you expect any different?

 

[Alec Swan]

Tweedette,

I fail to see what you're trying to achieve, with your post. The "Resident Copper" doesn't agree with you, or your stance, and neither do I. Why drag this from another forum, to here?

A top tip, I wouldn't post this in the Hunting section, of H&H, were I you!

Alec.

 

[tweedette]

We have three teenage boys, on a railway embankemnt, without firearms, using two dogs, and full piccies of the boys. I am totally for these dogs being used for working, but a plummer is a sporting terrier not an earth dog , but!!! we are going for breed recognition, with idiots letting us down - as for the copper - he turns a blind eye to whoever/whatever it suits. I noticed a good friend of his from scotland turned a blind eye to as terrier bitch being sent to England to have its litter of pups ? find the post and you will see why.

We must give positive publicity for these dogs if it is ever to have a future - three youths with a beat up fox(and questionable permission), not very pc correct or a girl out with an 8 mnth old puppy with an electric collar hardly promotes the breed on a specialist site.

the plummer terrier must have a shop window for positive publicity, a professional attitude for the development of a breed, these examples and I could add many more - do not help our plight.

 

[tweedette]

Tweedette,

I fail to see what you're trying to achieve, with your post. The "Resident Copper" doesn't agree with you, or your stance, and neither do I. Why drag this from another forum, to here?

A top tip, I wouldn't post this in the Hunting section, of H&H, were I you!

Alec.

Its about creating a breed that carries credability , I cross reference for the benefit of the dogs , not all plummr owners are like this, some people work for the breed not to bring it into question being let down by people who should know better. Negative publicity is not what these dogs need.

 

[tweedette]

The reason for bringing this here and not the hunting forum, is that as a breeder, I look at things a different way from a terrierman . Though a full time terrierman looks after the welfare and training of our pack 7 days a week.

Its thoughtless pictures like this.

which does nothing but raise a negative profile of the breed and its owners.

And this

Look what I've got in my hand, said the proud owner

An electric control for me? says the 8 mnth old pup.


As a breeder, the above is not the kind of promotion we need, yet its applauded. I'm puzzled, people are disgusted by puppy farms and indiscriminate breeding, but when it comes to other areas, and I bring it up as a concerned promotor , is it so wrong - the plummer terriers needs showing in a positive light.

 

[Maesfen]

Its about creating a breed that carries credability , I cross reference for the benefit of the dogs , not all plummr owners are like this, some people work for the breed not to bring it into question being let down by people who should know better. Negative publicity is not what these dogs need.

Don't make me laugh please. Terriers are earth dogs, it's what they were bred for, to work underground.
Plummers are a type, Patterdale based, that Brian Plummer developed years ago and were known for being hard, nutcase dogs. Very few genuine terrier men would have anything to do with them and by association, Plummer himself because they were so brain dead and aggresive, not a decent working terrier at all. A decent terrier man does not want his dog bitten up and completely driven to get the quarry, whatever it is; they want a biddable dog which won't latch on to anything in sight, quarry or otherwise as they were so neurotic, it was usually a trip to the vet or doctor afterwards to get one or the other of them sewn up. They were an utter liability at an earth and usually, the only ones who liked their dogs like that were the hard boys that came out of town and their biggest thrill was who could get their terriers bitten up more. They thought the more scars the better it proved what a good working dog it was but all it proved was the dog didn't have a brain and no self preservation; they were definitely not true terrier men at all.
The terriers did well at shows because they were always up for it and showed themselves off well because they were usually trying to hang off the one next to it and many a time I've seen them snap at the judges when handled, not at all what you should want to encourage; you need them handleable by anyone, whenever and especially at an earth.
There are loads of Patterdale type terriers that have evolved just like the BPs but without their dodgy temperaments, why don't you encourage those as a type instead of vindicating Plummer for breeding indiscriminate war machines as once he finished breeding, that strain should have died out by now, it certainly shouldn't be encouraged.

 

[tweedette]

And your point differs so much to mine? you look through different eyes, laughing at me or not, unlesss you have these dogs you cant possible understand whats going on.

 

[Vizslak]

I'm not really sure I see the issue with the post or the pics...or the one of a dog in a leccy collar.
I just wanted to ask a question cos I'm nosy....what is the proposed breed standard for the Plummer?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Why are you dragging stuff here from other forums? I know we all post links etc but reposting other people's pics and reprinting screeds and screeds of posts is a bit off, TBH.

And are you sure that is an electric? And not a locator?

 

[Vizslak]

thats deffo an electric collar

 

[Foxfolly]

An electric control for me? says the 8 mnth old pup.
QUOTE]

Is it an electric collar or a locator collar??

We breed patterdales and love them to bits, they are our pets and we love them dearly, we are responsible breeders and only breed for confirmation and temperament but at the end of the day all terriers they are what they are and that is an earth dog!!

We don't work ours other than for ratting round the farm but one of ours has on a few occassions done a disappearing act whilst out walking and we know full well that when she comes back she has been down holes and last time had probably been face to face with a with a fox or badger, as she had some nasty bites on her! You can breed for showing and type but you can't take the terrier out of a terrier and who would want to? We love ours for the feisty steak even if it is rather a worry when they do what they do!!

Our lab x springer has her own natural instincts and she occassionaly comes back from a little circuit with a pheasant for us!!

 

[3DE]

An electric collar can be a lifesaver for working type dogs with a low recall ability. I have used an EC for recall in the past and, if used correctly, they are a valid tool.

 

[CorvusCorax]

OK, the ones I've seen have much smaller blocks or two blocks, but having said that, it's a smaller dog than I'm used to seeing them on
It's also really badly positioned.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I do sympathise if you feel people are giving your breed a bad name, it is something I am all too familiar with. However, surely if these pics were posted on a plummer forum they were only being seen by fans of the breed, by posting here you are bringing them to the attention of a lot more people.

 

[Vizslak]

OK, the ones I've seen have much smaller blocks or two blocks, but having said that, it's a smaller dog than I'm used to seeing them on
It's also really badly positioned.

Yea they look rather bulky on a terrier!
and its pretty low, but they are tricky to postion correctly on small dogs,

 

[EAST KENT]

Bit confused now..terrier..earth;so this is an earth dog that is`nt supposed to go to ground?Even more confused. You want KC recognition..really? Possibly the very worst thing that can happen to a good old working breed in my opinion.Next step is bunny huggers keeping them in crates and bemoaning if they show the slightest sign of work instinct.
Believe me,your average dog breeder is NOT a good keeper for these fine dogs,look at the "show" type Parsons..and then compare to the damn fine white Lakies seen at terrier shows,happy dogs fulfilling their birthright.
So ,with KC recognition ,what then do you see as the way forward for the breed..just interested

 

[Pix]

I do sympathise if you feel people are giving your breed a bad name, it is something I am all too familiar with. However, surely if these pics were posted on a plummer forum they were only being seen by fans of the breed, by posting here you are bringing them to the attention of a lot more people.

I agree with MM to be honest But I can also see why you would post it for others' to see for commentary purposes.

I'm not into terriers, or hunting with dogs. But I'm also not at all bothered by the fact it goes on, I grew up in a rural area where it was commonplace so it neither bothers me nor interests me particularly . I can see though how the posts on the other forum (and pictures) would look to the dog owning public that aren't at least used to being around working terriers/other dogs. The fact that it's 3 teenage lads with dubious permission holding up a dead fox as opposed to experienced adults with permission would be an eyebrow raiser for some (I won't comment myself, them lads could have been working terriers since they were ankle height for all I know).

I doubt it will reflect badly on the breed itself to most though Tweedette so I wouldn't worry if I were you. Those that are into working terriers will be educated enough to make there own minds up. Those that aren't probably won't get past thinking 'oh noes! a dead cute fluffy fox!' And then there are those like me who won't worry either way!

Unless I've got it completely wrong and entirely missed your point, in which case I apologise.

As for the electric collar, I'm not sure what the circumstances were or how experienced the woman in the photo is at using them. I don't really have a problem with them in general IF they are used correctly by experienced people. I know if my 8 month GSD suddenly took to say, chasing sheep, an e-collar and an experienced trainer to go with it would be something I'd look into.

 

[tweedette]

I do sympathise if you feel people are giving your breed a bad name, it is something I am all too familiar with. However, surely if these pics were posted on a plummer forum they were only being seen by fans of the breed, by posting here you are bringing them to the attention of a lot more people.

thats the whole idea,the breed needs publicity but we dont want this kind of negative publicity which will be dragged up after our application to the kc and possibly used against us. Best if we as the leading kennels admits there are areas of Plummer owners need cleaning up.
We will not sit back while the morons of this world destroy a breed I have spent 15 yrs of my life working with, the future of the breed is as yet very unstable, and we are learning all the time . I have sat back this past 3 yrs and watched individuals, already existing and new people come and want to be the one!!the saviour of the breed - talk is cheap, they have done nothing more than fragment the breed with several 'new camps' springing up - you only have to look to see what a mess the breed has got itself into. Its in self destruct mode and thinks its above the law in some cases .
Am I expected to sit back and pretend to not notice
I have recently started looking into forums, as a united front between the Plummer terrier association -'home of the pure' and the PTGB- new blood, pure, inc putty nosed and tri colours is due to take place this January , which means registrars will share information , and eventually submit a database to the kc for consideration, a united database.

I dont regard the pictures of the boys strictly anything to boast about, and none of them have come forward with any proof it was a legal hunt.

the electric collar is a short cut to nowhere, brian tried a similar thing - called separation anxiety - live with one? try to breed a litter of pups from them, then hand rear the badly licked and blistered puppies because all the bitch does is lick lick lick them, lest she be separated from them - and my bitches are left in the quiet to rear their pups , she was manic and would have licked them to death if I hadnt noticed and taken them away from her - I digress and thats another story. but think on, you 'leccy collar' enthusiasts you are in good company with brian.


Not only have I seen the teenagers and the electric collar and the teenagers hunting in the past few days , i noticed last night we have a possible case of 'tail docking tourism' going on , I dont officially know of any Plummer terriers being done in Scotland, but wouldnt guarantee it 100% .

The case I refer to is taking a pregnant bitch from glasgow to england so when she whelped there the puppies could get their tails docked,( it appears the owner backed by the law are using a grey area of the law , is a foetus a protected species?) - the law states in scotland, and this is a law we have to abide with hence and can not and do not dock puppies.

Quote
(3)A person commits an offence if the person takes a protected animal, or causes a protected animal to be taken, from a place in Scotland for the purpose of having a prohibited procedure carried out on the animal at a place outwith Scotland.



Hence research 'protected aniaml'. Health & Welfare act Scotland and we get.....
Protected animals S.(1)In this Part, an animal is a “protected animal” if it is—.
(a)of a kind which is commonly domesticated in the British Islands,.
(b)under the control of man on a permanent or temporary basis, or.
(c)not living in a wild state


Then Docking or as the law likes to refer to it as 'Mutilation' they always have to be dramatic lol.

20Mutilation S.(1)A person commits an offence if the person—.
(a)carries out a prohibited procedure on a protected animal, or.
(b)causes a prohibited procedure to be carried out on a protected animal..
(2)A person (“person A”) who is responsible for an animal commits an offence if—.
(a)another person carries out a prohibited procedure on the animal, and.
(b)person A—.
(i)permits that to happen, or.
(ii)fails to take such steps (whether by way of supervising the other person or otherwise) as are reasonable in the circumstances to prevent that happening..
(3)A person commits an offence if the person takes a protected animal, or causes a protected animal to be taken, from a place in Scotland for the purpose of having a prohibited procedure carried out on the animal at a place outwith Scotland..
(4)In this section, references to the carrying out of a prohibited procedure on an animal are to the carrying out of a procedure which involves interference with the sensitive tissues or bone structure of the animal..


Am I wrong in showing concerns ?

My question is is a foetus a protected species ?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Tweedette, I admire your passion for the breed, but threads like this won't help your case. At all. Sorry. All you have done is spread the 'negative publicity' to a wider audience - on Christmas Day? Really?! - and it's all a bit 'they said, I said, yay, go me!'

Also a lot of the time, I personally don't understand what you are trying to get across. That bit about separation anxiety and electric collars, nope, don't get it.

Post pics of yours dogs, show us what they do, show us the success stories instead of dragging stuff over from other forums that very few people read, anyway.

I am no electric collar 'enthusiast' but to say one tool is the root of all evil is a bit silly, to be honest. For certain dogs and in certain situations, under correct guidance, they do work and I have seen it myself.

 

[echodomino]

try to breed a litter of pups from them, then hand rear the badly licked and blistered puppies because all the bitch does is lick lick lick them, lest she be separated from them - and my bitches are left in the quiet to rear their pups , she was manic and would have licked them to death if I hadnt noticed and taken them away from her

Should you encourage breeding from bitches with such manic behaviour? Not having a go, just genuinely curious, as surely that's not healthy?

 

[numptynoelle]

Tweedette, I admire your passion for the breed, but threads like this won't help your case. At all. Sorry. All you have done is spread the 'negative publicity' to a wider audience - on Christmas Day? Really?! - and it's all a bit 'they said, I said, yay, go me!'

Also a lot of the time, I personally don't understand what you are trying to get across. That bit about separation anxiety and electric collars, nope, don't get it.

Post pics of yours dogs, show us what they do, show us the success stories instead of dragging stuff over from other forums that very few people read, anyway.

I am no electric collar 'enthusiast' but to say one tool is the root of all evil is a bit silly, to be honest. For certain dogs and in certain situations, under correct guidance, they do work and I have seen it myself.

CC has very eloquently put across what I've been thinking.

The majority of time on this forum I'm inspired to find out more about the breeds/disciplines people take an interest in and I've learnt a hell of a lot from my own research inspired by the threads people post.

However, I'm sorry to say, I think your threads are rather off-putting to those 'not-in-the-know" about the breed. I'm sure is not your intention, but IMHO you may be putting people off finding out more about the dogs you so obviously care about. Posting pictures from another forum, especially of young people, to make your points will not curry favour with me, but a more balanced thread based more on: "look at these fab wee dogs, more people should know about them" may inspire me to find out more. Just my opinion

 

[tweedette]

Bit confused now..terrier..earth;so this is an earth dog that is`nt supposed to go to ground?Even more confused. You want KC recognition..really? Possibly the very worst thing that can happen to a good old working breed in my opinion.Next step is bunny huggers keeping them in crates and bemoaning if they show the slightest sign of work instinct.
Believe me,your average dog breeder is NOT a good keeper for these fine dogs,look at the "show" type Parsons..and then compare to the damn fine white Lakies seen at terrier shows,happy dogs fulfilling their birthright.
So ,with KC recognition ,what then do you see as the way forward for the breed..just interested

Its a strange question, one to which I would like the answer to myself. I'm not particularly interested in kc recognition, but the breed gaining some other kind of recognition, there are enough people who begrudge the kc every penny they take, perhaps there is a better organisation that they would be better registered with, as all the English main Game fairs , Inc The Gt Yorks are enforcing the tail docking law for dogs/puppies born after the ban, the Gt Yorks alone only started mentioning it in their schedule 2010, it was boycoted, the show being cancelled, another shop window lost..
Soon only underground shows will let docked pups be shown.
This leaves an uneven playing field for all working dogs- our included , especially Scottish Breeders of sporting breeds . Do you see the same in the likes of springers or is there a huge split between working or showing - what about dual purpose animals ?.

you mention the bunny huggers, i've seen caged dogs stacked in kitchens like soup tins in Tesco , not owned by bunny huggers, I can assure you of this.
I'd like to be able to handle a real good parsons and white lakie, sadly to date I havent - god would you imagine someones face if I asked to handle his dog!!!!

the way I see for the future of the breed is to build strong foundations, use the talents of the people in the know or who are already in the breed. Promote the breed as brian wanted, agile, intelligent and versatile - he wanted them to be 'pc' terriers . I once asked what we would do should the Scottish Government ban tail docking - he replies' Well, we will have Plummers with tails' -I hope that helps with some of your questions, I bred the dogs - nothing more, our dogs average 7kg.

 

[Ravenwood]

I don't know the first thing about Plummers - I had never even heard about them before the other day. Nor do I know anything about terriers in particular.

But I am surprised that someone advocating such a working breed that you are anti docking. In my doggy world (gun dogs) the ban on docking dogs was ludicrous for working dogs but luckily round here, it is easy to get a reference and have them done. Working a spaniel with a full tail is a nightmare, not only proved by a regular poster on here but I know several people who have awful trouble with splitting tails - it is cruel not to dock them if they are going to be working.

Can you just clear up for me, if these terriers are not ground dogs - what exactly do they do? Are they just ratters? Is that why you are so upset to see pictures of them working to get a fox?

 

[tweedette]

Should you encourage breeding from bitches with such manic behaviour? Not having a go, just genuinely curious, as surely that's not healthy?

you dont know it until you see it, who would have thought it? Its the first and last case I have ever seen, know where both puppies are, the bitch was bred from, shes an old girl now, but has been superb in everything she has done, this anxiety never passes on,its something which can be created between man and dog, this was the result - I never want to see it again..

The original bitch long gone, this was 13 yrs ago.

 

[tweedette]

But I am surprised that someone advocating such a working breed that you are anti docking. In my doggy world (gun dogs) the ban on docking dogs was ludicrous for working dogs but luckily round here, it is easy to get a reference and have them done. Working a spaniel with a full tail is a nightmare, not only proved by a regular poster on here but I know several people who have awful trouble with splitting tails - it is cruel not to dock them if they are going to be working.

Can you just clear up for me, if these terriers are not ground dogs - what exactly do they do? Are they just ratters? Is that why you are so upset to see pictures of them working to get a fox?

Not anti docking, we have a blanket ban in scotland hence cant dock - simple as.

They were bred for ratting, read some of Brians books like Tales of a rat hunting man , he was obsessed with ratting, but one or two did make it into hunt service, one of our old boys did 3 yrs hunt service, was second in the gundog scurry at the welsh game fair. I've no problem with hunting, I have problems with teenagers posting hunting pictures without explanation, it brings not only legal hunting into question but the credibility of care for our breed.

 

[Vizslak]

Tweedette, I admire your passion for the breed, but threads like this won't help your case. At all. Sorry. All you have done is spread the 'negative publicity' to a wider audience - on Christmas Day? Really?! - and it's all a bit 'they said, I said, yay, go me!'

Also a lot of the time, I personally don't understand what you are trying to get across. That bit about separation anxiety and electric collars, nope, don't get it.

Post pics of yours dogs, show us what they do, show us the success stories instead of dragging stuff over from other forums that very few people read, anyway.

I am no electric collar 'enthusiast' but to say one tool is the root of all evil is a bit silly, to be honest. For certain dogs and in certain situations, under correct guidance, they do work and I have seen it myself.

Agree with all of this. I consider myself far from unintellegent and try as I may I'm not understanding the points you are making in many of these posts Tweedete. I'm finding myself reading and re-reading just to try and make sense of what it is your saying....at the moment I'm not succeeding.
Are you suggesting that proper use of an electric collar made a bitch get severe separation anxiety?! I apologise if thats not what you meant at all.

 

[tweedette]

Agree with all of this. I consider myself far from unintellegent and try as I may I'm not understanding the points you are making in many of these posts Tweedete. I'm finding myself reading and re-reading just to try and make sense of what it is your saying....at the moment I'm not succeeding.
Are you suggesting that proper use of an electric collar made a bitch get severe separation anxiety?! I apologise if thats not what you meant at all.

I will take up my dislike for electric collars and separation anxiety up on another thread- one day.My point with that example is both are equally as damaging in the long term, I dont agree with either and certainly not an electric collar on an 8 mnth old plummer pup . Brian Plummer Trained his dogs using separation anxiety, again damaging in the long term, but until you experience it, you dont know what its like or what to expect .

I have had dogs come into the boarding kennels we used to own with holes in their necks from electric collars .