Worm counts, who don't do them, why not

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thatsmygirl

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Iv never done a worm count on any off my horses and just read a interesting article in a horse mag about them. What I did learn was they don't do encysted or tape which I knew anyway and they are unreliable on bots and pinworm plus are unreliable in winter. So what's the point. I shall carry on worming as I'm doing but know many people who do without the knowledge off the worms they don't cover. Just makes me wonder long term if it's for the best.
 
My YO's vet suggested that she switched the yard to worm counts. She told her to continue to worm for tapeworm twice a year at the correct time then worm count the rest of the time. We're just waiting on some results actually then the horses who need worming will be done.
 
My friend who is lovely but not all there was worm counting hers and was getting low counts but her horse coliced twice when all the vet could think It was, was the encysted coming out.
I'm interested in peoples long term views on using them.
Why worm for just tape twice a year?
 
I won't switch to worm counts. I can't help thinking I'd pay for a worm count then end up paying for a wormer. I'd rather just pay for the wormer in the first place, leaving out the expense and the fannying about first.

Plus I don't believe they are completely reliable, they don't test for this, that and the other worm. You've still got to worm at least twice a year anyway. I'll just carry on worming one or twice in between those two times. I can't see how possibly not worming those one or two times if the worm count is clear is going to make a great deal of difference to the resistance issues in the long run either. There will be a big problem but people just worming a bit less with the wormers we've got isn't really much of a solution to it as far as I can see.
 
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There have been a few threads on this lately. I find it quite confusing and worrying. I have a friend who had two horses severely colic and one died following being wormed with a 5 day wormer, and yet she always did worm counts. So I have always been wary of doing them, as done at the wrong time they don't give true results. So I spoke to someone who did his thesis on worms at vet school a few years ago about this the other day.

He said only do worm counts from May-October as otherwise it won't be an accurate result. Remember too that they only count redworm, so don't show ascarid worms (common in youngsters) or tapeworm. So always worm for tapeworm once or twice a year. Worm counts in winter are a waste of money as the worms are dormant.

He also said this year could be bad for worms as its wet and warm - ideal conditions..

Ps. 80% of worms are in 20% of horses, so worm counting a yard will show you which may need higher doses..
 
I don't worm count as mine all live out and I'm not quite sure how I'd manage short of running round after them with a bucket!

However, I would bet alot of money that my 2 year old would be my 'wormy' one. Last time I wormed her there were loads of roundworms in her poo. She doesn't carry the same condition as the rest and also had juvenille warts (poor immune system). I worm her with 5 day in autumn and will equimax her this weekend. I'll also do my yearling.
 
The other issue with WCs is that worm eggs aggregate in the faeces, so to avoid false 'low' counts you need to take an entire heap of dung, blend it, then take a sample from that. If worm eggs were evenly distributed through the dung this issue would not arise. The WC companies never mention this, and I don't understand why.

I don't worm count. You need to do it over a long period of time to get representative results. I poo pick regularly and keep the horse in a stable herd so I simply worm on a reduced chemical cycle.
 
Flame_ said:
I won't switch to worm counts. I can't help thinking I'd pay for a worm count then end up paying for a wormer. I'd rather just pay for the wormer in the first place, leaving out the expense and the fannying about first.
We just worm counted the whole yard, all came back clear. Wormed one horse with Equest Pramox and out came a load of worms. :eek: So everything on the yard has to be wormed now. So we wasted the money on the worm counts in the first place...
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I worm count. I have my horses at home, have sheep and poo pick regularly.

I worm for tapeworm twice a year and encysted redworm in winter, worm count in between. I have had a different range of results even though mine are all kept the same. I just worm if needed then.
 
What hasn't been mentioned so far is that there is known and tested resistance in certain worming chemical groups. It is very likely that in time resistance will be more widespread, and if we're not careful we're going to end up without any effective wormers. At the moment there aren't any new grups being developed.

I think hore owners need to be educated more on worming, and yes I do think Worm Counts are a useful tool. However, owners need to be made more aware of their limitations and not rely on them fully.

Likewise owners need to ensure that when they do worm they give the horse a full dosage and not underdose like I've heard of people doing, as this will very quickly allow for the worms to build up resistance. This may well mean buying two syringes for the owners of bigger horses.

There are draw backs, already mentioned in the thread, but they can be limited. Chemical worming cannot be totally avoided, we still need to worm for Encysted Redworm December time, and Tapeworm in around October. I use Equest for the Encysted Redworm, this also covers pinworms and Bots which don't show on the tests and a dose of Equitape for the Tapeworm. There are of course other wormers you could use.

I will worm count through summer, March, June and September. The Small Redworm is the most common worm in adult horses, it's these that chemical worming programmes are targetted at through summer months. Worm Counts taken accurately are very good guidance for this. I am that mad person with dung in a bucket, mixing it up to try and get a more accurate sample. I intend to get a sacrificial blender as well.

In March two of my horses came back with <50epg readings and the other <100epg. They live in a closed herd of well managed pasture, the four year old had the higher reading. With such low readings none needed worming. They'd been wormed over winter for tapeworm and Encysted redworm. The experts I've been in contact with agree with this.

Worm Counts aren't perfect, I'm not saying they are. But at the moment they're the best tool we've got in the battle against widespread resistance. So until a more reliable method is developed, it's the best we've got and used wisely it's useful.
 
thatsmygirl said:
So what worms is it that the counts pick up on?
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Does anyone actually know which worms the counts pick up on?

I was lead to believe you only have to worm for tapeworm & encysted redworm as they do not pick up on those and those only. But our yard came back clear and someone wormed with Equest Pramox, a load of roundworms came out the next day. Which I thought the worm count covered? :confused:
 
it is only tapes and encysted redworm they don't pick up and, if you have a regular low count throughout the summer your encysted redworm should be low.

I have expressed my views about them frequently on the forum and essentially I don't do them for the reasons that Spottedcat has already highlighted. The test itself is good, the sampling procedure and suggested frequency of testing is not IMO.
 
fizzer said:
I worm count. I have my horses at home, have sheep and poo pick regularly.

I worm for tapeworm twice a year and encysted redworm in winter, worm count in between. I have had a different range of results even though mine are all kept the same. I just worm if needed then.
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This is an excellent policy. The reason for worm counting is to avoid over worming ie worming horses which dont need it at that point in timeand so stop resistance developing to the chemicals in the wormer .
 
We do them with our sheep and i will start the horse soon, i am hoping to do them myself as i work in Biosciences, have a microscope and am waiting for the slides then just need to get a colleague to show me the technique. Hopefully i'll get the hang of it, may pick up a few extra jobs.
 
I'm lead to believe they don't pick up on bots, and pinworm due to the eggs being laid outside the horse is not reliable. So those who worm for tapeworm and encysted only. I take it the wormer u use cover those anyway as I believe all wormers do?
 
jrp I have at times done them myself, the technique is really easy and very much 'kitchen science'. I think they are much more useful in sheep (and that is where my involvement scientifically was) because proportionatly if you take a 3g sample from a sheep poo you are getting much more of the total dropping

thatsmygirl that is correct but they are of less pathogenic importance than the encysteds and the tapes.

Horsesforever IMO the biggest problem for the development of resistance is inappropriate worming and underdosing. For me the sampling method leads to too high a chance of a single false negative result and I would not choose to not treat on the basis of one <50epg result. If I tested 4-6 weekly over the summer and got a series of low results I would be much happier with it.

As it is I choose not to as due to my management practices I can assume a low burden, the only dose I would not be giving would be the one summer dose of ivermectin, and I would not be happy doing a single worm count instead of this. The other 3 doses in the year cover tapes and encysteds.
 
You can blood test for tapeworm (only need to test 1/2 a year) and then treat as neccessary. Or treat once a year.
Encysted redworms-yes not picked up by egg count but an animal with low fec and not young (<4yrs old) it's unlikely to cause a clinical problem.
What will be a clinical problem will be when our yards (not jsut our horses!) contain species of worm that re immune to wormers-then disease will rocket. And worming regularly just speeds up this provess-Fecal egg counts are the way forward. Besides which most worms are carried in say two horses out of ten-so ten haev money spent on them un neccesarrily..
There are NO new wormers in production-once we've abused the wormers we have..that's it! 80% of yards are now resistant to one type of wormer.
 
SusieT said:
You can blood test for tapeworm (only need to test 1/2 a year) and then treat as neccessary. Or treat once a year.
Encysted redworms-yes not picked up by egg count but an animal with low fec and not young (<4yrs old) it's unlikely to cause a clinical problem.
What will be a clinical problem will be when our yards (not jsut our horses!) contain species of worm that re immune to wormers-then disease will rocket. And worming regularly just speeds up this provess-Fecal egg counts are the way forward. Besides which most worms are carried in say two horses out of ten-so ten haev money spent on them un neccesarrily..
There are NO new wormers in production-once we've abused the wormers we have..that's it! 80% of yards are now resistant to one type of wormer.
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I have to agree with this. Products being pushed to increase sales are having a detrimental effect.
 
I've had mixed and at times, surprising results with worm counting. When I've done everything by the book - rotating, poopicking daily, cross grazing etc and still had worm it all seems pointless, so I've given up. I rotate the type of wormer yearly and continue with preventative measures but no longer worm count.
 
SusieT said:
ps-worming in winter*stabled) is also a waste of time-worm in the grazing season if you must.
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What a lot of tosh! :rolleyes: (oh, and that is MY humble opinion)

If a horse needs worming, regardless of when the time of year it is, then it should be wormed!
People who give out information such as the likes of you have done, should be able to subtstantiate their alleged truth with facts.

When is 'winter' anyway - so many have theirs in stables far longer than they used to be.
Many have theirs in even now due to sodden fields.
 
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cost is a bit prohibitive re tapeworm though when I can do both of mine for not much more than a tenner.

I certainly don't understimate the problems with resistance, I believe there is a triple resistant equine farm in mexico = no horses can be kept on that land, and the same has happened in sheep on a couple of sites in the south west. I just don't think that as they stand FEC is the cure all for the issue. I think education has a long way to go, like not moving to clean pasture post worming etc.
 
But how come my mate had a low count but coliced very soon ( days) off getting results? Worming wasn't done due to low count and vet was told he had low count so worming wasn't suggested. The next night he coliced again and the vet this time wormed him with equest paramox and he was full off red worms. Never seen so many in my 30 yrs off horse ownership but yet low count!!
I worm my horses and always have in a way that suits me but never seen worms like in that horse when owner has used worm counts. I know it's only one horse but iv heard off others and that's anough for me not to want to try it.
 
thatsmygirl said:
But how come my mate had a low count but coliced very soon ( days) off getting results? Worming wasn't done due to low count and vet was told he had low count so worming wasn't suggested. The next night he coliced again and the vet this time wormed him with equest paramox and he was full off red worms. Never seen so many in my 30 yrs off horse ownership but yet low count!!
I worm my horses and always have in a way that suits me but never seen worms like in that horse when owner has used worm counts. I know it's only one horse but iv heard off others and that's anough for me not to want to try it.
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egg counts as said don't pick up on encysted redworm, horse likely coliced (sp?!) due to mass emergence of the encysted form of the redworm, treating with pramox would then expel these. Encysted redworm emergence can result in a 50% mortality rate, which is why I think egg counts whilst have a place, should not be relied upon as an all year round answer.
 
Yep but some posts are saying if the worm count is low than encysted shouldn't be much off a problem? To me I feel it is, so is any worm so a worm count don't give u much off a picture off worm problems within the horse surely.
 
thatsmygirl said:
Yep but some posts are saying if the worm count is low than encysted shouldn't be much off a problem? To me I feel it is, so is any worm so a worm count don't give u much off a picture off worm problems within the horse surely.
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Encysted redworm eggs cannot be counted in faeces. Regardless of having a low egg count, you must still worm for encysted and tapeworm at the appropriate time of the year. :)
 
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