**Worming worries - please help!**

surreyhorsechick

surreyhorsechick

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I've got two horses on grass livery. One is a 23 yr old native pony, the other a rising 4 year old TBx. I've owned the 23 year old pretty much all his life and he's been regularly wormed. The youngster I bought as a yearling and have owned him for almost 3 years. Again he has always been regularly wormed with me and I believe he was wormed properly in his last home. Mine are separated from each other as they fight, but are essentially on the same paddock, separated by electric. Both are poo-picked every day.

Since I've owned him, the youngster has always had 'loose' droppings. By that I don't mean diarrhorea, as the droppings are properly formed, they're just, well looser and wetter than my other horse's. I've tried various supplements, from Pink Powder, to Balancers and more recently Diarreze from Global Herbs. The latter has been the most successful to date, but hasn't eradicated the problem altogether.

This winter, both my boys have been on haylage (as we were able to get a bulk load in at a far better price than hay), but it has been rich and the youngster has suffered with looser droppings than normal. After Christmas I made the decision to put him on hay to see if it would make a difference. It has, but has not eradicated the problem altogether.

2 weeks ago I had the vet out for annual vaccinations. Mine were due to be wormed with Equest a few days later but the vet suggested worming the youngster with Panacur 5 Day Guard to see if that helped. Since starting the course I've discovered (much to my surprise) red worms under the droppings. They are not 'throughout' the droppings, more underneath them when I poo-pick? Is this small encysted redworm?

I'm surprised as not only have both my horses been wormed on-time and regularly, but they're poo-picked EVERY day without fail, sometimes twice a day. For the past two years I have had them both on the Equest programme, alternating between Equest and Pramox. I would normally have changed wormers after the first year, but was advised that this was not necessary by my vet. Is this right? Or should I have changed?

My question is - now I have now finished the 5 Day Guard, is that it or do I need an additional wormer? And will the 5 day dose have been enough to eradicate the redworm or will I need to do it again later in the year?

Sorry to sound really naiive, I'm not a worming expert and have never had a problem like this before!!!

Any help greatly appreciated!


**also posted in Stable Yard**
 
If you have poo picked religeously you are unlikely to have a large worm burden.
Dead redworms would be seen throught the droppings, but unless you have taken a picture of them that you can post on here, I wouldn't want to rule them out!
Red worms are really tiny, quite hard to see. Only a few mm long and 1 or 2mm wide.

Wormcount your horses in the early spring. If it is warm enough to make the grass grow, it is warm enough to worm count. Not much point doing it now as it won't give you an accurate result.

You will have a bit more of an idea of what you are dealing with then.
 
That's brilliant Monkers, thank you for finding that pic, but no they don't look like that - they're bigger and basically look like normal worms if that makes sense? And they're not 'in' the droppings, they're underneath them and not under every pile of poo. They are red though which is what made me query red worms? Or could they actually be earthworms? I can try and get a pic tomorrow and post if that would help?
 
Resistance to pramox is high - workers should be rotated between chemical groups to prevent resistance - ideally with worn counting - though routine worming for tapeworms, encysted reds and bots should still be done as they dont show in the counts
 
i have had a real prob with worms bought a colt 9 weeks ago he was full of worms i wormed him with equest there waaas a lot of worms that came out of him. 3 days later noticed more worms in his poo tht ws alive so he was done with pramox nothing came out in his poos dead i left it a week to see if wormer needed time to kick in but still live worms the vet then came out and gave him different wormer up his bum. still worms didnt die. he is now on 5 day course of panicure and touch wood seems to being the trick. i hope it is coz hes had far to much wormer as it is. vet says that once he is clear he should be fine as there is only him and his field friend that live here so not masses of horses
 
Box_Of_Frogs said:
My understasnding is that Panacur 5-day is all but useless these days as there is now huge worm-resistance to it.
Click to expand...

It's true, there is widespread red worm resistance to Panacur guard, but it does have its uses. It is a gentler drug than those in Equest, so can be useful for young horses, old horses, those with known gastric issues etc.
It is also very good indeed for killing round worms in foals, and there is little resistance to them.

If you don't want to use equest for any of the above reasons, you can use 5 day guard and then a worm count to check efficiancy. Resistance varies from horse to horse.

Personally none of my horses over the years have shown any resistance to it, so I would be happy to use it along with worm counts to check it is working.
 
Thanks everyone,

I'm confused though as I've always wormed religiously and didn't think for one moment that my youngster's loose droppings could be to do with a worm infestation! I have used the Equest/Pramox programme for the past two years and was assured that would be ok, no need to alternate each year.

Leviathan - I tried Pink Powder, followed by NAF Haylage Balancer. He is now on Global Herbs Diareeze which has helped but not cured the problem. Saying that, since doing the 5-day guard his droppings have hardened up a bit.

Still confused over the worms found underneath the droppings though? I have taken some pics tonight so will upload. As I say, they look like earthworms but are pink/red in colour. They are only under the droppings not 'in' them and they are alive. They are also only under the droppings at the top of the field by the woods, not under droppings out in the main part of the field. And my older horse has no sign of any worms at all in his droppings!

Photos to follow........
 
picture.php


This is one of the photos I took last night - to me this looks like an earthworm?
 
It looks like an earthworm. If it has a "saddle" then it is an earthworm. Roundworms don't have them.

The only way to assess your horses worm burden is to do a worm count in the spring. As you poo pick and worm regularly, you are unlikely to have a problem.

Your youngster's loose droppings could be due to worm damage sustained before you had him.

There are a whole host of causes for diahorrea though, so it could well be caused by something else.

What do you feed him?
 
Yes Monkers, I think what I've been seeing are almost certainly earthworms, but I agree a worm count is probably the best next step.

To my knowledge my youngster was wormed properly before I got him and I have had him on a strict worming programme for the last three and a half years. My friend owns his half brother (purchased at the same time) and he has never suffered with any problems like this. When we purchased them they'd both been on a diet of Bailey's Stud Balancer, with added Hi-Fi when they needed it. We kept them on the same regime until last year when I backed my youngster. I changed both my boys onto Balanced Show Mix (which I'd used with my older horse for years with great success).

My youngster's droppings have always been on the loose side and they haven't particularly varied from season to season, but you're right - if there was worm damage there to start with, it could be a reason for his problem.

As I say I've got to contact the vet again this week to update him. The droppings are a lot firmer though which I'm really pleased about. Just not convinced his problem is worm related.
 
popularfurball said:
Resistance to pramox is high -
Click to expand...

We have had Pramox not work at our yard twice (definitly wormed correctly). 2nd time, Horses then had to be wormed with Panacur and then worm counted afterwards clear.

We no longer will use Pramox, but will use Panacur (obv not for tapeworm, use diff wormer for that)
 
That's really interesting Galaxy. I've never had any problems with my older horse (now 23) but I know that young horses often have a high worm count so I guess I should have thought about doing a dose of Equine Guard instead of using Pramox last Autumn. Will def worm count in Spring to see whether it's worked!
 
It's tricky when buying horses and finding out worming history. What one person thinks is a good programme, another might disagree.
The first year of a foals life is very important when it comes to worming and will need a different approach to older horses.
Also, the previous owner might not have been as religeous about poo picking as you are, so you never really know what has happened before you bought the horse (unless you know the owners well of course!)

If he is a relatively good doer, then you could try withdrawing hard feed completely for a while and see if his droppings firm up.
I would consider just feeding hay, a grass chop like Just Grass, and a broad spectrum vit and min supplement for a few weeks. Avoid all cereals and mollasses. If his droppings improve, he could be reacting to the mollasses in the mix, which is well known for causing digestive upsets.

We don't need to feed as much as the feed companies have us believe! I feed my horses on the above (broodmares/ youngstock) with linseed meal as a protien source and a little unmollased sugar beet. They do better on it than the stud cubes they were on before.
 
Monkers - I totally agree. The previous owner of my boy is absolutely lovely and did a fantastic job with both mine and my friend's horse (half brother to mine) before we bought them. I'm pretty certain they were on a structured worming plan but not sure about the poo-picking as they were in a huge field full of long grass so it was difficult to tell!

Re feed I had considered that the molasses in the show mix might aggrevate things as he has a 'sensitive' digestive system, but he's always had soft poos, even when he was just on the balancer and hi-fi lite.

He has always been a good doer (has a lot of QH in him!) but as he's about to come into work (after being backed in the Autumn and turned away) I don't want to cut out the hard feed altogether, just perhaps find a feed more suited to his needs. I also have a 23 year old Welsh Sec C who is a really good doer. He is also on Balanced Show Mix and does really well on it but due to his age and the risk of laminitis (he's just beginning to show the first signs of Cushings) I'm aware of avoiding too much sugar in his diet and will have to watch his weight/sugar intake as we move into spring. So ideally I'd like to find a feed that would suit them both.
 
I promise he will be fine by going back to basic for a few weeks!
Just remember what horses are designed to eat, grass! I believe that much of the increased digestive related problems we see all to often is because we are feeding far too much of trhe wrong things.

Do consider the feeds I have suggested for a while, especially as he is only in light work. By removing cereals and mollasses you will have a chance to see if they are affecting his gut.

Personally, I believe that if your horse has access to plenty of grass/ forage, all he needs is balanced vits and mins and a good quality protien source. I like to use linseed meal as it is high in protien and essential fatty acids.

If you have a horse in hard and fast work, then possibly more would be required, but not many of us would fall into this catagory!

Think about the size of the meals too. Overloading the stomach can cause excess stomach acid, and far more horses have gastric ulcers than we realised in the past.
 
Ha ha I'm such a worrier!!! But I agree with everything you're saying - would be interesting to see if he's 'sensitive' to anything........he gets quite affected in the summer months, ie if anything presses on his nose (ie headcollar slips down and sits too low) he snorts constantly until it's moved back into the right place and he has to wear a fly mask all day as his eyes just stream :(

In terms of the Grass Chop - is that the actual name of it as I've never heard of it before? And in what quantities would you feed it? He's currently on 2 slices of hay/haylage mixed morning and evening, plus a scoop of Show Mix morning and evening. Would you feed linseed mix as well? I have absolutely zero grass at present and only time will tell how good my summer grazing will be (hopefully not too bad as it's been rested all winter) so the only food intake is what I'm feeding him!
 
Monkers - just looking at Pegasus Health's site and they do Linseed Meal and Feedmark original balancer with free next day delivery. Simple Systems appear to do a chop, as so Badminton Feeds (Easy Rider grass and straw chop). It's quite hard to find a totally molasses free product!

Where do you purchase yours from?
 
Personally I use Just Grass from D&H, linseed meal from Charnwood milling, and any unmollassed sugar beet like quick beet.

Brewer's yeast is a good product for digestive issues. I get mine from pro earth. They are on ebay. It can take a while for them to get used to the flavour though.

I would consider just using hay as well for a bit, without any haylage at all.

If he is a good doer, he should be fine on adlib hay, and a vit and min supplement. I only use the just grass so I have something to mix the supplement in.

I doubt very much he will lose lots of condition if he just has that for a few weeks. If his droppings improve then at least you know the problem is related to his feed. You can gradually add more things in as his work load increases, but don't forget the spring grass will be here soon.

Most of our horses really don't need the cubes and mixes that we all think are necessary. As I say, I have mares and growing babies, and they look great. Less is more!
 
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