Worms! to Test or to Treat? That is the question

[CrimsonDivine]

So I was looking at a test kit on VioVets and was thinking; why buy a test kit that costs just as much as wormer if you could just treat them and save money on the kit, assuming that with the kit they show as possitive anyway? Also, how many horses can you test with these kits? Is it really better to test first? What are the pros and cons, can someone enlighten me on this please? I've always dewormed my horses every year so I'm curious to know why test and whether it's worth considering before deworming and/or perhaps avoiding deworming at all should the show as negative in the test.

 

[AmyMay]

I always wormed my horses because that’s what we did. I was also on livery so had no choice.

However if I had my own land then my preference would be to worm count. Why put chemicals in to your horse and on the land if you don’t have to?

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

Because you run the risk of treating a horse with wormer when they don’t need it and encouraging resistance to wormer.

That’s the crux of it really.

I’d rather not pump chemicals into my pony unnecessarily so I worm count.

In 3 years I’ve had one result which meant she needed wormer (when she came to me).

 

[COldNag]

This is a very helpful explanation from Liphook Equine Hospital.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjALegQIHxAC&usg=AOvVaw0NjB3Cb7OiDOT0c6Irj7qW

 

[CrimsonDivine]

I always worked my horses because that’s what we did. I was also on livery so had no choice.

However if I had my own land then my preference would be to worm count. Why put chemicals in to your horse and on the land if you don’t have to?

Worked? I assume you mean wormed, or as I call it; dewormed. Anyway, why? Well just incase they get infected I suppose.. But then too much of a good thing can be a bad thing so hard to know which is best really.

 

[windand rain]

You need a barrage of tests to cover all worms so I worm for encysted redworm in December and tape in April and October in between I test once never had a high count everything new is wormed for both before joinning the herd

 

[CrimsonDivine]

Yeah, I keep telling this woman I joined a week ago that we need to treat our horses for worms before introducing them properly. Currently separated by electric fence. But she just keeps whining about the fact that she never needed to before. To make matters worse there is poop everythere! Took me the entire week to clean up my side and now they've swapped sides, no thanks to hers braking through due to poor fence installation. So now I'm back to square one.. Filled at least 4 barrows worth today and not even finished.. This is all her own ponies' poop by the way, not my horse and pony. She has clearly been too lazy about it. Infact some of it is dry and decomposing.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Worms can travel a fair distance over the grass from the droppings so it sounds like you're probably cross contaminated with "this woman's" horses anyway now.

It's worth testing before treatment. Avoiding the risk of creating a de-wormer resistant worm population in your field is worth the cost of a test kit or two.

 

[CrimsonDivine]

Worms can travel a fair distance over the grass from the droppings so it sounds like you're probably cross contaminated with "this woman's" horses anyway now.

It's worth testing before treatment. Avoiding the risk of creating a de-wormer resistant worm population in your field is worth the cost of a test kit or two.

This is why I try not to use the same kind where possible. The place up the road always insist that we all use EquiPramox. As good as it may be it can still cause resistance where all 6 to 8 horses have had it. Sometimes I really don't get people with horses, or animals in general for that matter.

 

[TheMule]

Horses are designed to exist with a low worm burden. I do my own worm counts and if they are low then I just worm for tapes/ encysted reds.
Worm counting is a far better way of targeting your worming so that wormers are only needed when necessary. Worming blind is, at best, likely be unnecessary but also likely to increase the resistant strains of worms inside your horse and on your land.

 

[CrimsonDivine]

Morning everyone. Just looking at the EquiSal Tapeworm Testing kit and it says I have to send the saliva sample to them or something? Is there nothing that can give you the results on site rather than sending it off?

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

Horses are designed to exist with a low worm burden. I do my own worm counts and if they are low then I just worm for tapes/ encysted reds.
Worm counting is a far better way of targeting your worming so that wormers are only needed when necessary. Worming blind is, at best, likely be unnecessary but also likely to increase the resistant strains of worms inside your horse and on your land.

I’ve just saliva tested for Tapeworm with Intelligent worming if you’re interested in testing for that too. Was really easy and I say that as an owner of a mouth shy pony following a tooth extraction! Mine came back within the range.

 

[Red-1]

As others have said, counting is best to prevent unnecessary use of the chemicals, but because they are not great for the horse (barefoot horses can become footy after working, for instance, so not all invisible damage) and also it can bring about resistance.

I haven't wormed more than once or twice a year for 20 years. Every single worm count has been zero. Including the new horse, wormed on arrival then counted after 6 months here. But then, I do poo pick twice a day, so it barely hits the floor before being removed.

I also worm count my dog for the same reason. No point in using chemicals in a scatter gun approach, especially if it is just to save a small amount of money, if it is to the possible long term detriment to the animal.

 

[COldNag]

Morning everyone. Just looking at the EquiSal Tapeworm Testing kit and it says I have to send the saliva sample to them or something? Is there nothing that can give you the results on site rather than sending it off?

The swab you take has to go to their labs to be analysed - results are usually pretty quick- reminds me, need to do mine this week.

 

[CrimsonDivine]

As others have said, counting is best to prevent unnecessary use of the chemicals, but because they are not great for the horse (barefoot horses can become footy after working, for instance, so not all invisible damage) and also it can bring about resistance.

I haven't wormed more than once or twice a year for 20 years. Every single worm count has been zero. Including the new horse, wormed on arrival then counted after 6 months here. But then, I do poo pick twice a day, so it barely hits the floor before being removed.

I also worm count my dog for the same reason. No point in using chemicals in a scatter gun approach, especially if it is just to save a small amount of money, if it is to the possible long term detriment to the animal.

Depends on what you consider a "small amount of money". For starters it costs the same, and in some cases more than the actual wormer (really don't see why they don't call it DEwormer). Also not all of us consider it a "small amount" in general, each to their own. However.. don't get me wrong here, I am interested in everyone's point of view and may even be more inticed to try it for myself, should the feedback be fruitful, but of course I have views of my own to throw in. And no this isn't a debate but there's two sides to the same coin as they say, again each to their own on that particular subject is all I'm going to say to that and hopefully leave that there.. Also WTF is "footy"? XD I'm sorry but this seems like an awfully funny term to me, never heard anyone even say it before. Do they start kicking a ball around?

 

[ycbm]

You need a barrage of tests to cover all worms so I worm for encysted redworm in December and tape in April and October in between I test once never had a high count everything new is wormed for both before joinning the herd

I do the same but Moxidectin once in winter, praziquantel and ivermectin once in summer, and I only test new horses or if I suspect an issue.

I have a problem with worm counts and that is nobody knows what the "right"number is, it was pulled out of a hat at 200 when tests were first carried out. I worry about auto immune issues from not giving the immune system any challenge, and I look at the increasing evidence that deliberate infection of adults with hookworm can help with control of some diseases.

I don't recommend anyone follows my regime, I do realise that I'm a maverick about worming, but I have my own land and the field is huge for the number of horses on it.
.

 

[CrimsonDivine]

Just wanted to add that where I was told to use EquestPramox (yeah, I spelled it wrong before) we had been giving that to our horses for around 7 years or so and never had a worm resistance problem. Infact the only time we had an outbrake was when we didn't get around to treating them this one time, owner of the place didn't remind anyone that it was due and no I know we should keep track of our own as well but everyone was relying on this so-called programme and it was their daughter's horse who fell ill to worms which was pure irony in my opinion. Anyway point being that the resistance thing isn't always the case and from my experiance less likely than actual facts?? and you'd think there would be after treating more than half a dozen horses with the same stuff.. However, I confess I was never confortable with these ideas, just once again throwing it into the conversation as a view point.

 

[Quigleyandme]

I worm tested my horses twice a year for twenty years and probably only wormed them once or twice in that time. I picked up all the dung in the fields daily during the months it is light enough before and after work and on Saturday and Sunday in the darker months. They were adult horses though.

 

[ycbm]

Just wanted to add that where I was told to use EquestPramox (yeah, I spelled it wrong before) we had been giving that to our horses for around 7 years or so and never had a worm resistance problem.

CD you don't know if you have a worm resistance problem unless you test. You can't tell if a drug worked from the external appearance of the horse (or its poo, if you're seeing worms in poo you've got serious problems) .
.

 

[Dexter]

You cant possibly know if you have a resistance problem without worm counting. If you had horses "falling ill to worms" then there was a significant and dangerous worm burden and you should have tested then to establish the scope of the problem

 

[TPO]

Worming every 13wks is now defunct information.

The worms are building resistance to wormer and there are no new wormers available. Therefore the recommended advice is to worm count 4x a year and only treat with the necessary/correct wormer of there is a high worm count. If worming is necessary then another count should be done after (2wks later iirc) to ensure that that wormer has done the job.

There is no test for encysted red so horses are wormed late autumn/early winter with moxidectin.

The cost of worm testing/worming is a basic of horse care. It *is* a small amount in the grand scheme of owning and looking after horses along with very regular hoofcare, veterinary care/vaccinations and dentistry. What you post is very worrying in regards to owning two horses.

You cannot state that you've *never* had any worm resistance when you've *never* worm tested ??‍

One test per horse; fecal sample for worms and salvia sample for tapeworm. £18 for tapeworm test and £9 for worm count. If a horse has a high burden then they need wormed followed by another count.

ETA. They need to be wormed with the correct chemical wormer to target thr worm group that they are carrying

Owners who continue to worm as you are indicating are the cause of worm resistance. 20% of the horses carry 80% of the burden and that is why there is a need for targeted worming (after worm testing/counts).

There are not "two sides to the coin". There is the research and science about how to manage worms through counts and targeted worming.

Only posting in case a newbie stumbles across this post and thinks what OP describes is how to manage worms or that the cost is avoidable

 

[PapaverFollis]

Anyone unsure about worming should speak to their vet or a Suitably Qualified Person for advice.

 

[rabatsa]

Once you get resistant worms on the land they are allways there. Many years down the line horses will be picking up these worms that cannot be got rid of. Just look at large parts of Australia where there are no go areas for sheep just because the worms are resistant to all classes of anthelmintic.

We are advised that if we do treat our sheep for worms then we should leave them on the "dirty" field for a couple of days before moving them to fresh pasture, in order that they can pick up some non resistant worms to prevent the resistant ones from having a party in the animal and being the dominant worms on all the land.

I have a problem as I know that here ivermectin does not have any effect on the worm population in my sheep.

It will be a very sad day when there are no effective products for removing worms from horses due to the overuse of products now.

 

[paddy555]

It will be a very sad day when there are no effective products for removing worms from horses due to the overuse of products now.

this

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

I wonder how much of the brilliant advice given won’t be seen by the OP because they are on UI ?

 

[TPO]

I wonder how much of the brilliant advice given won’t be seen by the OP because they are on UI ?

The majority. He's the worst kind of troll. He has kicked off and been aggressive on every thread that he's been involved with.

He asks the most basic of questions (fine, everyone has to learn but preferably before acquiring horses) and then argues with every correct answer he's given that he doesn't like.

He called himself a "proper horseman" on another thread yet doesn't know the basics of worming. There is keeping horses on a budget and then there are the scenarios that he posts about in his own words.

He replies to other threads telling people that they are wrong/idiots/cruel and gives uninformed opinions that people are cruel to consider selling their horse when it is no longer financially viable to keep and care for them. Spewing absolute nonsense that all sold horses end up in downward spirals and upsetting/guilting posters.

I am genuinely concerned about the level of care that his horses are receiving. Even more so when worming two horses is considered a big cost and rather than follow correct advice wants to worm cheaply instead. Alongside a post about a cheap hocus pocus feed to worm instead ?

The meltdown over the cost of dirt cheap grass livery and paying the normal price for hay sets alarm bells ringing.

Throw in his tantrums and threats and you can see why he struggles to find a livery to take him in.

Half the forum was put on UI over linseed iirc because despite being the person who asked the question he knew better than everyone else.

I dont know why he continually feels the need to be so rude and aggressive but he does. I'm on UI (for defending posters that he was abusive towards) so can say as I please ? my only concern is someone reading the posts at a later date and mistakenly thinking certain things are true/correct. I'd rather that OP didn't see what most of us write but that the information is available for others.

Edited because phone autocorrect is throwing me under the bus with some of the spelling

 

[AmyMay]

Depends on what you consider a "small amount of money". For starters it costs the same, and in some cases more than the actual wormer

Well yes, I would expect that to be the case tbf. Chemical products are mass produced. A clinical test is bespoke.

I’m not sure that a marginal difference in price warrants not testing, as opposed to using a chemical treatment.

And of course, this is a debate. It’s a forum. That’s what most of us are here for.

 

[Bellaboo18]

How have you wormed your horse and pony up to this point? When were they last wormed?
I use westgate labs to worm count in summer but worm in spring and autumn for tape and encysted as they wont show up on the worm count I use.

 

[spacefaer]

Worming every 13wks is now defunct information.

The worms are building resistance to wormer and there are no new wormers available. Therefore the recommended advice is to worm count 4x a year and only treat with the necessary/correct wormer of there is a high worm count. If worming is necessary then another count should be done after (2wks later iirc) to ensure that that wormer has done the job.

There is no test for encysted red so horses are wormed late autumn/early winter with moxidectin.

The cost of worm testing/worming is a basic of horse care. It *is* a small amount in the grand scheme of owning and looking after horses along with very regular hoofcare, veterinary care/vaccinations and dentistry. What you post is very worrying in regards to owning two horses.

You cannot state that you've *never* had any worm resistance when you've *never* worm tested ??‍

One test per horse; fecal sample for worms and salvia sample for tapeworm. £18 for tapeworm test and £9 for worm count. If a horse has a high burden then they need wormed followed by another count.

ETA. They need to be wormed with the correct chemical wormer to target thr worm group that they are carrying

Owners who continue to worm as you are indicating are the cause of worm resistance. 20% of the horses carry 80% of the burden and that is why there is a need for targeted worming (after worm testing/counts).

There are not "two sides to the coin". There is the research and science about how to manage worms through counts and targeted worming.

Only posting in case a newbie stumbles across this post and thinks what OP describes is how to manage worms or that the cost is avoidable

Once you get resistant worms on the land they are allways there. Many years down the line horses will be picking up these worms that cannot be got rid of. Just look at large parts of Australia where there are no go areas for sheep just because the worms are resistant to all classes of anthelmintic.

We are advised that if we do treat our sheep for worms then we should leave them on the "dirty" field for a couple of days before moving them to fresh pasture, in order that they can pick up some non resistant worms to prevent the resistant ones from having a party in the animal and being the dominant worms on all the land.

I have a problem as I know that here ivermectin does not have any effect on the worm population in my sheep.

It will be a very sad day when there are no effective products for removing worms from horses due to the overuse of products now.

This.

My dissertation for my Masters degree was a comparison of anthelmintic resistance among sheep and horses. It was published 20 years ago and based on previously published veterinary research.

In terms if resistance build up, there are huge parts of the world where the drugs just don't work due to previous inappropriate use - including a large swathe of South Wales

This is well established scientific fact.

Worm count to establish the burden and then use the appropriate anthelmintic drugs. Pasture management was proven to have a greater effect in controlling worm burdens than just worming without it.

 

[AmyMay]

This.

My dissertation for my Masters degree was a comparison of anthelmintic resistance among sheep and horses. It was published 20 years ago and based on previously published veterinary research.

In terms if resistance build up, there are huge parts of the world where the drugs just don't work due to previous inappropriate use - including a large swathe of South Wales

This is well established scientific fact.

Worm count to establish the burden and then use the appropriate anthelmintic drugs. Pasture management was proven to have a greater effect in controlling worm burdens than just worming without it.

Thank you for this. Really interesting.