Worried, help/advice please?

Trish C

Trish C

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Apologies as this may not make much sense, will probably be very long and rambling as I'm a little upset. Not really sure what I'm asking, only has anyone any tips for ticklish horses and how would you feel about/handle the following situation?

'Easy' issue: I'm currently clicker training 'stand', as for grooming/mounting/riding he messes. I'm now getting a reliable stand for grooming, and today had a nice quiet stand to hop on. I'm sure that a lot of the messing he does is because he's incredibly ticklish - 'shivers' a lot when touched on withers/belly and swishes his tail. Occasionally picks up a back leg and stamps it but he's never kicked out. Todayin the school he kicked out his outside leg (not bucking) occasionally in canter transitions. However, it didn't bother me too much as it wasn't really unseating. Is this a symptom of ticklishness/freshness/me being too heavy with the leg or is it just a bit of a cheeky protest? Should I be worried or just keep working with him and see what happens? (Checked back - no lumps/bumps/reactions, teeth done three weeks ago)

'Difficult' situation: (has upset/worried me)

I just got a call from yard manager to warn me that when one of the lads (G) tried to bring Monty in, something had happened. Monty can be a bit of a pain to catch sometimes, and he's wary of new people, G hasn't handled him before. He's especially funny about people he doesn't know being on the right of his head (previous mistreatment?). All I know is that G went to catch him and he messed around a little (turning and walking away) then when G tried again he knocked G somehow - think it might have been that G tried to headcollar him from the right and Monts shied away and accidentally knocked him with his jaw? Very hazy on the details. G then threw the headcollar down and shouted, so Monts naturally p*$$ed off across the field. YM left Monts to settle a while then caught him fine.

YM tore strips off G telling him that she doesn't what that kind of behaviour around any horses, let alone a paying livery etc. G stormed off, hopped on his brand new horse (only had it three days) and took off at pace. YM rang me just to keep me in the loop, which I'm grateful for.

So now I'm worried/upset because I don't know exactly what happened:
  • I'm worried that Monty may have done something like kick out (v out of character tho) and put G at risk.
  • I'm worried that G's reaction could've upset the work I've been putting in with Monty on his shyness and his stand. I like G so don't want this to become an issue with us, but if I'm back to square 1 with my horse I can't help feeling I know who to blame :(
  • Also worried because G's horse is so new and a bit flighty. G didn't tell anyone where he was going and set off at an absolute tear down the lane and has been gone for ages. YM's husband has gone out to look for him. Worried that if something happens my horse is at the root of the problem :(

I want to know exactly what happened, for my own peace of mind or so that I can deal with it/warn others if he did. YM didn't see the full incident (only G's reaction) and I do really like G... but YM's telling off didn't go down well - so how do I find out what really happened without upsetting G further?

Really, REALLY sorry for the rambling. It's just shaken me a bit and upset me to be honest :( :( Loads of booze/chocolate for anyone who takes the time to read/reply.
 
Not sure what to say, except that if someone is missing out on a horse at 10pm at night, I would be letting the autorities know incase he is lying injured somewhere.
 
krikey what a mess hope everything is ok? it can be difficult but sounds like at least you have a sound YM who puts clients first. Workers should understand that they have committed themselves to dealing with wild animals who ARE temperamental and cant explain how they're feeling...
Hope poor monty is feeling better not sure but with the stamping is there any possibility of mites? maybe, dont know...? keep us updated and just try and be as laid back as apossible, sounds like your going about it right... x
 
Well it wasn't Monty's fault for a start. Surely your YM must have told this G how to handle Monty. So calm down and tomorrow get the full story when everyone else has calmed down as well, and I think you may find it a storm in a teacup and Monty will be wondering what the fuss is all about. But I take it G doesn't work there if they have their own horse stabled there so maybe doing a favour. As my OH says bless him, get all the facts down on paper, and see what caused the hiccup.
 
Has he always been ticklish/ swishy tailed etc as i know you've posted a few times and not mentioned it - the only reason i ask is that if it's something new then there must be something causing it. could he be irritated by fly bites or such like as the flies do tend to bite under bellys and are attracted to the groin area etc , also some suffer from grass mites ( usually on feathered horses )and this would make him stamp his feet really hard but if they are about in the grass they could still be affecting monty , if his back has been checked it could well be something irritating and i would start by using a really good fly spray like coopers or stop-it-all , something with premetherine in it. A vet would do a skin scrape. Personally i don't think the catching thing is related and if you have a good friendship with G , just wait and see how monty reacts with you , just continue with him as though nothing has happened and then see what his reactions are , if it turns out that you've taken a couple of steps backwards , don't panic just continue going back over old ground to reasure him that it's all ok , if you have a horse at livery sooner or later someone else will have to handle him so try and get others to interact with him when you are there so that it becomes the norm.
 
lhotse - there are only limited routes from our yard and a few have gone out to look for him/check. Hopefully he'll be back safe and sound by now (took me ages to write original post! :()

lydia-markwick - thank you so much for the reassurances. Yes, the YM is absolutely brilliant, she is a complete star who I can't praise highly enough. G isn't officially a worker, just pitches in with odd jobs as he is a long-term friend with YO and YM and has recently had a couple of horses there. We all muck in turning out/bringing in horses where required as it's a very small, friendly and personal yard. But YM and YO are excellent about informing us all if a horse has an issue - we know exactly what horses we can handle and which ones to leave to their owners/YO/YM. Which is perfect, we know exactly where we stand and haven't ever had an issue until tonight.

What would the signs of mites be? His coat is in good condition, he's groomed every day now, but did live on a mountain before I got him! What should I look for?

Paddy Irish - yes he's always been very ticklish/tail swishy when groomed but it's a relatively minor issue so never bothered to post about it before as the kicking in canter thing is only very recent. I don't think the catching thing is related either, it's definitely a separate issue, he's just used to being an outside horse and he loves his grass! Will try a good fly spray. Thank you so much for the advice on handling the situation, sounds about spot on.
 
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I know you're upset but from what you've described the situation has been handled very professionally. As you've said, maybe he did approach from the wrong side (maybe he didn't know, or forgot) and got a knock. It's easy enough to react angrily when you're in pain but it sound like he didn't lash out at your horse just threw the headcollar down in a tantrum. YO made it clear that it wasn't acceptable AND informed you of the whole thing, so really what more could they do? I'm sure G will be more careful about how he approaches your horse in future. Next time you see him perhaps just say you heard he'd got a knock from your horse and you hope he's okay and to let you know if he has any problem in future because you'd like to work on it to make sure he's safe for everyone to handle.

Try not to worry - people who work with horses know they are unpredictable animals sometimes, I'm sure he'll get over it - probably feeling a bit miffed at himself for having a tantrum and loosing the horse he'd been trying to catch for 10 mins!
 
Others have summed it up so well

Your YM sounds good at their job and if you're a paying customer and G is a regular member of staff then I would expect that he should be aware of how you handle your horse, and respect it. He will also be aware that these things happen from time to time even with horses with no known quirks, so don't worry about that side of it.

The only thing you can do if ask G for the full run-down tomorrow and then try to see if something else is a possible cause. As Monty is stamping one place to look, as I'm sure you do, is for any scabs/cracks on the heels. A friends horse had mites and even whilst the treatment worked it drove her crazy - with lots of foot stamping along the way

If you don't find something extra don't be over-surprised it could easily just be an accident today and I'm sure Monty will be fine with you tomorrow when you handle him. Probably the poor lad will be totally bemused by all the attention that he will be sure to get in the morning
 
Whatever happens its not yours or Montys fault! G sounds somewhat hot headed and, dare I say it, a bit immature. Hope they are OK though.
 
Thanks all for the reassurances. I'm sure you're all right and I'm just a worrying idiot :) I know the YM couldn't do any more, I wouldn't dream of questioning/second guessing her since, like I say, she is fantastic! I just don't like to hear that any drama has gone on, with anyone being hurt/upset, especially not when it involves my horse.

G is awful sound, but you're right, he is hot-headed and is very 'old school Irish bog' style when it comes to handling horses. G doesn't do softly softly and Monty is so wary/stubborn that I think/hope they probably just clashed.

Also thanks loads for the advice re stamping, will check it out. :)
 
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1. Stupid groom's behaviour is not your fault and it will not be your fault if he has hurt himself.

2. Research has shown horses to prefer to look at danger with the left eye. Approaching from the right is likely to cause flighty behaviour while they try to get the "danger" they are trying to evaluate on the left.

3. The kick-back in the canter transition is very common in unbalanced youngsters, but if it is new think about possible ulcers because my baby only started to do it when he had an acid stomach, and stopped when I gave him stuff to calm it down.
 
Really interesting cptrayes, didn't know that about the left/right eye thing at all. Explains a lot with my boy.

He's actually a 9yo but hasn't been schooled for a long time - only time he used his canter previous to coming to me was out on the odd trek. Is there a way I can check for ulcers? The behaviour is new, but then so is our canter work in the school to be honest - spent weeks trying to balance him up in trot before progressing to canter. We've probably only cantered four times in the school before today.
 
I think the only thing you need to worry about is ensuring that the YO doesn't allow G to handle your horse in future.

And it would be interesting to see if your boy maybe lacking vision in his right eye.....
 
Trish C said:
Really interesting cptrayes, didn't know that about the left/right eye thing at all. Explains a lot with my boy.

He's actually a 9yo but hasn't been schooled for a long time - only time he used his canter previous to coming to me was out on the odd trek. Is there a way I can check for ulcers? The behaviour is new, but then so is our canter work in the school to be honest - spent weeks trying to balance him up in trot before progressing to canter. We've probably only cantered four times in the school before today.
Click to expand...

The eye research is fascinating and completely explains why we handle horses from the left - it's where they want us to be! Things they don't find threatening they look at with their right eye, but if they find something concerning then they want to look at it from the left side. Once you know it, you can see it all the time in flighty horses.

I don't think you need to worry, unless he doesn't stop in a few weeks, about the canter kick-back. It really is very common in an unbalanced horse on a circle. If I have one like it I try to teach canter in a straight line out on a hack instead. Then they don't have so much pressure on the inside hind leg as they strike off, and they tend not to do it.

You can check for ulcers by feeding a packet of 12 ranitidine tablets (tesco own brand £1.38) in at least 2 feeds (6 in each) for a couple of days. If he has ulcers, the ulcer type behaviour will usually decrease in that time. Also make sure he has some food in his stomach before riding, to sop up the slopping acid. Twitching as you do up the girth, kicking back in the canter, refusal to turn right when schooling, weaving etc. usually reduce in 24 hours.

If he seems to have ulcers and you are insured you can go the Gastrogard route to cure them.
 
If G carried on like that in my yard they'd be off it so fast there would be no point them coming home from their late night hack!!!!!! He screwed up, has made a mess of things and you and your horse have nothing to feel guilty about. Even if your horse did kick out....G is working with horses and had been warned your fella is a bit quirky so that is the risk you take but for the chucking the headcollar at him alone I would be categorically stating he is never to have anything to do with your horse again!
 
Really interesting about that right eye research cptrayes. I don't suppose you have a link or a bit more info?

I second thinking about possible gastric ulcers too. I know with my spooky horse adjusting his diet (less grass and soaked hay) makes a difference to him. In fact I've got all mine on soaked hay atm, for various reasons, and they're all ultra, ultra chilled now I think about it. :confused:
 
Thanks for all the replies :) didn't see G today (apparently he was there unusually early today to do his jobs then disappeared!) so I'm still none the wiser as to what happened. Apparently at the same time as this was all happening last night, tho, a 2yo unhandled filly was arriving and being herded into the yard creating all sorts of havoc. I'm not surprised Monts was acting up in that case! Said filly is now in the stable next to Monty and has become completely obsessed by him... just gazes through the bars at him constantly. So that made grooming fun, tricky to tell what's causing what reaction when a pretty filly is constantly tarting at him :rolleyes:

Hacked him out anyways with speed demon today, and led all canters so that we could dictate the pace and weren't having to race to keep up with said speed demon. No kick-out or bucks :)

He was ok when I turned him out (we've been doing a lot of work in his manners for that) but I have been able to wander over to him for a pet (without headcollar) before, whereas today he just shot straight off so I left him to it. I'm sure if anyone has a problem catching him tonight a rattle bucket will have him standing in his box in two mins.

He was sufficiently good today that I'm confident it wasn't him being overly bolshy. Hope G cops on soon tho, would be a shame for him to alienate people or hold this against us. :(
 
One G gets back i would want to get to the bottom of what happened (if you manage to without walloping him in the gob for throwing a tantrum) as it may give you some clues as to what happened.
 
amandap said:
Really interesting about that right eye research cptrayes. I don't suppose you have a link or a bit more info?

I second thinking about possible gastric ulcers too. I know with my spooky horse adjusting his diet (less grass and soaked hay) makes a difference to him. In fact I've got all mine on soaked hay atm, for various reasons, and they're all ultra, ultra chilled now I think about it. :confused:
Click to expand...

I'msure the research itself is somewhere but I can't find it for the moment. The news reports of it, though, are like this one:

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2009/08/060.shtml

I find this intersting too, the left eye actually reacts quicker than the right:

"It has been shown that the left eye is the 'rapid-reaction' eye, and has a stronger and faster flight reaction to a frightening stimulus presented on the left. The study indicated that this affects the horses's interaction with people.

The horse that generally prefers you on the left, but is not bothered if you are on the right, is probably seeing you as a cooperative partner, whose lead it would like to follow. "

Basically, the research that has been done produced a strong indication that we should handle horses from the left. I'm pretty sure this research from 2009 was followed up in this country for an equine studies dissertation in 2010 but I can't find it.


It makes sense in a horse who processes two eyes separately - the horse who is using his left eye to evaluate danger will react quicker and run off first. A horse who delayed while he compared the vision from both his eyes to decide whether to run or not would be the one at the back that the lion catches. We look through both eyes forward with only slightly different views, and our brain processes them at the same time, so we don't have that problem.

Fascinating, innit??
 
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