Worried - ulcers may have returned - suggestions please :(

[Ellietotz]

Hello everyone.

As a lot of you know, my mare was diagnosed with ulcers in September last year and treated successfully within a month of full treatment then weaned off. We believe this was due to stress from a loan home she went to before I had her. She hates travelling which was stressful for her from the start, she was morbidly obese when she went and they returned her after 6 weeks very underweight as they hoped they could get her over the travelling issue to use for pony club but I think they wanted to shed the weight quickly too which didn't help the stress of being in a new home for the first time in her life. She was bred and raised in the same place so has never moved plus she is sensitive anyway. She was weaned off the treatment completely in December last year and all the symptoms stopped.

Since the clocks changed, she now comes in at night for about 12 hours. That is the only thing that has changed and since then, she has become a bit girthy again. Not like before when she hated having the girth done up, she isn't doing that again thankfully but only when checking the girth is when she has started pulling faces again. She has also become a bit more resistant to being tacked up when she was completely fine throughout summer. She hasn't changed ridden-wise. She is also still regularly in season but she has always been this way. Her saddle was done again a month a go and her back is still really good, not sore.

She gets fed grass nuts, linseed, equimins balancer and sea salt. She was on Grazezy for her spookiness out riding which has now gone and I've stopped that. Her poos are also still smelly although firm and normal looking. I've tried her on Science Supplements gut balancer for the last few weeks but it hasn't really made any difference so will stop that when it's gone.

Our insurance will not be valid now and I'm just trying to think of my options. She is a massive stresshead with or without company if another horse is taken out for example so it could have come back because of her running around not eating until the horse returns from the ride etc. It could be from being in at night and box walking (I don't have a choice to change this but currently discussing options with YO if it's possible).

I'm not worried about costs, obviously it's not ideal but I want her to be happy. My options that I'm considering are:

1. Just getting her scoped, this will only be £250 and I will have my answer. My worry is if it comes back positive but hope that it won't and then I can stop worrying.

2. Just get a couple of weeks worth of sucralfate to see if it helps.

Any friendly advise would be appreciated. I feel so upset about the whole thing and I don't know if I am just overthinking it.

I'm grateful if you got this far. Thank you.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

If the sucralfate helped before, I would talk to the Vet about doing option 2.

 

[YorksG]

Does she have ad lib forage? access to forage outside? Once you get her sorted again it might be worth giving her aloe vera juice, it worked well on sister draught mare, who was very grithy when she got here.

 

[Ellietotz]

If the sucralfate helped before, I would talk to the Vet about doing option 2.

She hasn't had it before. Unless it's in Ulsagold.

 

[Ellietotz]

Does she have ad lib forage? access to forage outside? Once you get her sorted again it might be worth giving her aloe vera juice, it worked well on sister draught mare, who was very grithy when she got here.

Yeah she does. I wondered about aloe vera juice but I need something for now.

 

[SEL]

Talk to your vet. I got more ulcergold without another scope based on symptoms. Ulcers were excluded from the insurance by then so it was to my cost.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Yeah she does. I wondered about aloe vera juice but I need something for now.

I am YorksG's sister. When I got the Draft mare she was obese from having been fed sugary, starchy cheap mix in her previous, fortunately short-term, home. She showed several symptoms of ulcers, although as her tack didn't fit, it was difficult to unpick what was actually going on. Obviously I sorted out her tack and her diet but I also started her on Aloe Vera juice, following a tip on here. I got the AVj very easily from Holland & Barrett, you could get some from just about any health food shop today. I found that if I ran out, her symptoms recurred within 48 hrs. I learned to be very careful to make sure that bad weather didn't mean that she had to miss a dose. I don't remember how soon her symptoms disappeared after the first dose and probably couldn't really say because of the other changes but it certainly sorted her out again quickly if she had missed just one dose.
Obviously, I wouldn't recommend AV over vet's advice and prescription but I would get some before the shops are closed over the holiday.

 

[Fruitcake]

My vet prescribed a course of Peptizole, without scoping, after a hospital stay for horse (unrelated but I think stress-inducing). Horse had history of ulcers, which had been confirmed by scopes and treated a few years previously.

Is there any way your horse could stay out? I’ve found living out so they can nibble all the time can be helpful. Also, Science Supplements Gastrokind (not the Gut Balancer) has been the most beneficial maintenance supplement for my horse (and I’ve tried a lot!!)

 

[Ellietotz]

Thanks everyone.
I still have in my mind though if there is any point treating blindly? Or if I should just get her scoped.

 

[VRIN]

Sounds like you have the answer.... get her scoped.

 

[Fluffypiglet]

Mine has just had a period of girthiness. I had Gastrogard left over from his treatment last year so have given him a weeks reduced dose and he does seem happier. My personal view is that they will always be susceptible and I will treat accordingly if I’m aware something has happened which may have upset him and he shows any signs. I personally would avoid scoping again because I’m comfortable that I recognise the signs he gives early on. I just have to try and manage his environment the best I can and get the YM involved so we can try and manage the stressors. It sounds like you are doing the same. There are so many different things you can feed them but if you know what works to resolve the ulcers, I’d stick with that and work on the stressors as that is ultimately the best ‘treatment’. Good luck and I hope you are able to sort it out.

 

[poiuytrewq]

I didn’t rescope mine. He had scoped clear after gastroguard but the symptoms returned a few weeks later, even though I followed the rules to a T as far as management went.
I spoke to my vet who agreed they had probably returned so we gave another course of gastroguard. The results were pretty instant and spoke for themselves.
I’d maybe try a weeks worth and see what happens?

 

[Leo Walker]

Scoping in itself can trigger ulcers as they have to be starved so I wouldnt scope.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Scoping in itself can trigger ulcers as they have to be starved so I wouldnt scope.

Exactly, I had to scope at the request of loan horses owners. In the morning he was really stressed out and upset.
He also had a lot of very obvious shavings in his gut so had obviously tried eating his bed.
The other really stupid thing about ulcers and treatment is the fact this horse had to have an empty stomach 3x daily for meds, then no feed for an hour after. Such a massive contradiction, when we’re told never to let a horse have nothing to eat!
I’d never scope my own horses.

 

[Ellietotz]

Exactly, I had to scope at the request of loan horses owners. In the morning he was really stressed out and upset.
He also had a lot of very obvious shavings in his gut so had obviously tried eating his bed.
The other really stupid thing about ulcers and treatment is the fact this horse had to have an empty stomach 3x daily for meds, then no feed for an hour after. Such a massive contradiction, when we’re told never to let a horse have nothing to eat!
I’d never scope my own horses.

I kept my mare in a completely bare stable and she was always really chilled out by the morning before scoping and I had to lead her round to the yard next door as we don't have electricity. My YO has agreed to keeping her out so I'm going to monitor her over the next couple of weeks and see how we go. I am toying with buying some omeprazole online though and trying that for a couple of weeks too or maybe some other type of acid neutraliser like limestone. I just don't know!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

OP, if you are going to keep her out, which sounds great, and not sscope until you see what happens, I really would try the AV juice. It is brilliant for the digestive system, it neutralises the acid.

 

[Ellietotz]

OP, if you are going to keep her out, which sounds great, and not sscope until you see what happens, I really would try the AV juice. It is brilliant for the digestive system, it neutralises the acid.

How much do you feed? Thank you! It's another one to consider. She did have it before she was originally scoped as I was treating blindly the first time round. I can't remember seeing a difference but then I can't really remember anything anyway!

 

[SEL]

It's probably easier to get hold of AV juice over Xmas but I really rate Thunderbrooks herbal gut restore product too. Mainly slippery elm.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

How much do you feed? Thank you! It's another one to consider. She did have it before she was originally scoped as I was treating blindly the first time round. I can't remember seeing a difference but then I can't really remember anything anyway!

I gave a 16hh Westphalian Kaltblut (built like an Ardennes but bigger) 3 capfuls daily. I think that would be 60mls. I gave it to her with soaked grassnuts, built it up from 1 capful over about 6 days, not that she seemed to notice the taste.

 

[Ellietotz]

It's an absolute minefield. Feel like I did at the start. Just more money wasted trying different things again.

 

[Inda]

I have a intense paranoia of ulcers. I use the protexin gut balancer to try and keep everything safe. Thunderbrook supposed to be good too from what I’ve heard

It’s obviously not as accurate but have you considered the succeed fractal test? Looks for both fore and hind gut ulcers.

 

[Ellietotz]

I have a intense paranoia of ulcers. I use the protexin gut balancer to try and keep everything safe. Thunderbrook supposed to be good too from what I’ve heard

It’s obviously not as accurate but have you considered the succeed fractal test? Looks for both fore and hind gut ulcers.

The gut balancer contains alfalfa so can't feed it sadly. Haven't looked into the Succeed one as I figured I could just scope and then I would know. I know I am just being impatient and wanting to buy something now to help but I should wait to see if going back on 24/7 turnout will help.

 

[Muddywellies]

You don't 'starve' them, that is a fallacy. It's just 8 hours that they have to go without food. I would always book my scope for the first appointment in the morning, then go to the yard at midnight and remove haynet.
My mare us ulcer prone and always will be. The insurance forked out £5k on treatment and they still came back - this is extremely common. We now 'manage' her ulcers under strict guidance from the vet.
In the first instance I would re-scope. (Mine has been scoped 6 or 8 times now). Then work closely with your vet to manage them. You really need a vet who specialises in gastroenterology.
Also, there are no supplements whatsoever that treat ulcers. It is only omeprazole that can actually treat gastric ulcers. Indeed, some supplements can ease the symptoms, but none can treat them. Work very closely with your vet and be prepared to deal with this one way or another for life.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

In my book, leaving a horse for 8 hours without food is starving it!
Horses are trickle feeders, which constantly make acid in the stomach to digest that food that should always be there. The reason that *some* horses develop ulcers is being left without food for prolonged periods. Whilst I understand that the scope can't see any ulcers if the stomach has food in it, I would prefer to medicate to diagnose, or as the ulcers have supposedly been cured once, I would choose to ease the symptoms long-term.

 

[Hack4fun]

I would concentrate on reducing stressors and making sure there is ad lib forage. Be careful of supplements without any scientific evidence to back them up. If there is less stress being out 24/7 then go for that, ideally with a companion. Take your time. Save your money.

 

[BBP]

I treated mine with omeprazolenabd sucralfate initially and then found that I had to keep him on a daily dose of equishure (reduces hind gut acidity) to keep him really happy. If he gets at all gutty now I up the equishure a bit and he’s right as rain. I’ve also seen improvements in both my sisters horses on it. It doesn’t help me understand why they get more acidy hind gut, perhaps an imbalance of bacteria? But I know that they are all happier and move more freely when they are in it. Certainly unlikely to harm, perhaps worth a try? And Saracen deliver really fast when it isn’t the holidays.

 

[DabDab]

Out of interest, do you struggle to get them to eat the equishure BBP?

 

[Muddywellies]

In my book, leaving a horse for 8 hours without food is starving it!
Horses are trickle feeders, which constantly make acid in the stomach to digest that food that should always be there. The reason that *some* horses develop ulcers is being left without food for prolonged periods. Whilst I understand that the scope can't see any ulcers if the stomach has food in it, I would prefer to medicate to diagnose, or as the ulcers have supposedly been cured once, I would choose to ease the symptoms long-term.

Scoping is the only way to diagnose. Yes they go a little hungry, and yes, there's a chance it may aggravate existing ulcers, but there's no other way. My horse was showing signs that her ulcers had returned so we re-scoped, and on that occasion she was totally clear of ulcers ! (One of only two times she scoped clear). Turned out she was uncomfortable in her new all singing all dancing anatomical girth. Why would anyone throw supplements and medication at a horse on the off chance that it may have a condition. Sorry but after spending thousands on my horses ulcers, I would always get a firm diagnosis and deal accordingly. It's vital to work closely with a specialist vet and not self diagnose.

 

[Leo Walker]

Yet in lots of cases the specialist vet will advise not to rescope and just treat.

Its pretty easy to do a process of elimination exercise to work out cause. A girthy horse and a new girth would have been investigated by me long before we went to scoping. I guess it depends how well you know your horse, and how good your vet is.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Yet in lots of cases the specialist vet will advise not to rescope and just treat.

Its pretty easy to do a process of elimination exercise to work out cause. A girthy horse and a new girth would have been investigated by me long before we went to scoping. I guess it depends how well you know your horse, and how good your vet is.

And perhaps how experienced the owner is.