Worth persisting? (jumping Qs)

[BronsonNutter]

Feeling a bit sorry for myself having got a nice collection of war wounds which make sitting, lying down, and moving painful... So thought I'd ask for people's opinions on something that's been playing on my mind for a while.

Wilby has never been the best jumper. It's not natural to him, his legs dangle all over the place and he's never been particularly 'brave'. However, in the past he has always gone, and we got to the point early last year where we were happily jumping round up to 90cm SJ &XC courses, albeit not always clear (fences down SJing, silly stops XC - usually at the first fence). We then had an awful time at Oasby where he jacked it completely in the SJ ring, but I put it down to the ground being hard and me just not riding him well enough. Took him out SJing on a surface a few more times and he was fine again.

Then I tried to sell him, he went out on trial but got sent back after three days. I have no idea what happened in those three days but he wasn't 100% sound when I got him back (this horse has, apart from that incident, only been fractionally lame once in two and a half years - about 1-2/10 lame behind - following a pretty hard kick to the stifle) and it was like he'd never jumped before in his life - I took him to a friends yard to borrow the school and he was trying to stop/nap/dive about - anything to get out of going over what was a tiny cross pole.

We've started jumping again this summer (nothing big; the fences have been pathetically tiny), but if I make a mistake and he ends up doing a dodgy jump it knocks his confidence right back. Final straw came this week when jumping a crosspole warming up - I got him in on a bit of a long stride (not a massively long one, just a little bit further than I'd have liked!), and he jumped it, but it was like he landed and just couldn't work out what to do with his legs, so panicked and shot off broncing, sending me flying into the arena fencing, he spooked at me and ended up on his back

Physically he seemed fine, and I got back on and got him back over the crosspole a few times but he just felt like he really didn't want to do it - like he'd just shut himself up inside his head, if you get what I mean.

I just don't know whether it's worth even persisting any more with his jumping. He used to enjoy it, and lately (before the fall) he's been feeling more like the 'old Wilby' - taking me into fences and enjoying himself - then this goes and happens, knocking us right back to square one. I jumped him over a tiny cross pole two days ago (to see how he was after the fall), he backed off all the way in and I felt physically sick and was shaking all the way into the fence - this is not like me! He likes hacking and flatwork, but he's never going to be a high scorer dressage-wise or move that far up the levels. So, what would you do with a horse like him? Persist, or just give up?

 

[Santa_Claus]

Have you had vet up to investigate? To me he is shouting something hurts which could be anything from feet to hocks to back etc etc so my first port of call would be a full work up to check for any physical issues.

 

[icestationzebra]

If you are pretty certain it is nothing physical and he never really been the bravest or most natural over a fence then I think he trying to tell you he doesn't want to do it. Most horses whatever their ability can pop a crosspole and enjoy it. He is panicing and personally I don't think it is fair to press him. I had one that I struggled with for a long time and it was pretty demoralising at times. I spent a winter doing BD getting points on her record then sold her to a dressage/hacking home where she is adored. She won't have to jump again and is totally loving life. Sometimes what is best for the horse is actually what is best for us as well.

It's not easy though

 

[Leg_end]

You need the vet out ASAP. I can't believe he flipped onto his back and you've not had him checked out TBH!

He sounds like my old lad who ended up having navicular so something in the feet/hocks/ back would be my worry.

 

[Littlelegs]

First thing that springs to mind is a pain reaction. So I'd get that sorted or ruled out first. Then I'd take his jumping right back to basics, & start with poles, & raised poles just like for a youngster learning to jump. Then keep it small to boost his confidence, even if that means spending a year doing nothing more than 2'3 courses till he's confident again. Some horses aren't natural jumpers, some just don't like it, but at the moment its hard to say if its just pain & confidence that's stopping him being able to manage rc/unaffil jumping at the least.

 

[BronsonNutter]

Wouldn't a physical issue be affecting him all of the time when jumping though? If not all of the time in general? The vet will be coming out soonish for his jabs, and I need to get the physio out anyway (he's been due for a bit, but with getting strangles on the yard no one has wanted to come!), so I will ask their opinions, but my gut feeling is that it's mental...

You need the vet out ASAP. I can't believe he flipped onto his back and you've not had him checked out TBH!

Physically he seems fine. He is 100% sound - I've trotted him up on road, in circles, flexed his legs and trotted him up. I've checked for any sore points along his back, and apart from the usual ones behind his withers (he gets massaged every other day on those) there weren't any. He didn't 'flip' up onto his back, he spooked at me mid bronc, tripped, fell down and the rolled over and ended up on his back. Don't try suggesting that I don't give a **** about my horse...


Icestationzebra - that is what I've been wondering whether I ought to try... He's BD reg'd but I haven't been able to get out to much at all what with uni and strangles. The only thing is he's not the best put together for dressage either, so is never going to be a worldbeater, so who's going to want him as a dressage horse? Being a full TB I doubt many people would want him as a happy hack either, and hes just such a nice horse to deal with and I love him a lot

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

:sighs: sounds EXACTLY like my loan horse.

It has been offered for me to buy him, which I think I am going to do. However, I have to be realistic, I think at some point I would sell him on.....and who's going to buy a horse that doesnt jump?! Also, like yours, he can do a nice test and will hopefully continue improving on the flat whilst I have him but he will never be a "dressage horse". Equally, he is good to hack but can be spooky and isn't good with big vehicles. GAH.

Mine is just scared. Even with poles, he's really nervous to start with and then relaxes, but if he clips a pole slightly completely panicks. Then he will gradually get over that but would hate to think what he'd be like if he clipped a jump

Jumping isn't my forte tbh and I'm not overly confident but really want to try and get this horse jumping so as of tomorrow I'm going to be brave and try! But tbh, he just won't ever be a jumper, he doesn't enjoy it and is genuinely scared. (think he's hurt himself before, probably as a youngster)

 

[icestationzebra]

Icestationzebra - that is what I've been wondering whether I ought to try... He's BD reg'd but I haven't been able to get out to much at all what with uni and strangles. The only thing is he's not the best put together for dressage either, so is never going to be a worldbeater, so who's going to want him as a dressage horse? Being a full TB I doubt many people would want him as a happy hack either, and hes just such a nice horse to deal with and I love him a lot

To do well at BD you don't necessarily need a big flash mover - but what you do need is correct training - that way you grab marks that others lose. Work out what his weaknesses are and work on them, then play to his strengths. For example if he is built a bit downhill and finds picking up hard - then ensure you get the best possible marks for his free walk on a long rein which he is likely to be very good at. Work on your test riding and ensure you are accurate - how you present a test is so important. If he is not big moving don't worry - it's very hard to keep a big, big moving horse balanced in a 20x40 arena so you will have an advantage. Get him checked out, if all ok then start a BD campaign. You might end up enjoying it - gives him another string to his bow and gives him a break from jumping. After 6 months there is nothing to stop you putting up a couple of small fences and testing his reaction to them......

 

[NeverSayNever]

i have no advice but i just wanted to say im sorry this has happened as iv followed your story with him and know how much work you've put into him and how much he means to you.

 

[Santa_Claus]

You can have issues that only show up occasionally and also only when jumping. Take arthritis in the hocks as an example. As with people there will be goo and bad days, as it will probably be equal in both hocks the horse will be sound but jumping will be enough to make a horse say no.

Ditto navicular, normal work can be fine but the extra concussion from landing over a jump will cause a no.

Another innocent problem can be saddle fit. If pinching at the wither/shoulder the horse may work ok on the flat under saddle but the pressure of the saddle into the wither/shoulder on landing is too much.

I got on a friends horse the other day who had had fitter out less than 3 months previous but the saddle was now a very bad fit and the horse was being rather vocal accordingly!

I would say it sounds like a pain issue first and foremost especially if he reacted particulary badly to the landing. Only wanting to take off on a perfect stride is very often an indication of hock issues. Which are normally very treatable

 

[Firewell]

I think the first point of call would be to check him out for physical issues like SC said. My mums old horse was as sound as anything on flexions on circles ect, even the vet said he's one of the soundest horses he had seen. However my mum knew he wasnt right as he was being stuffy in his work and was spooky jumping. We had him scanned and he had the beginnings of artheritis in his hocks, even the vet was surprised.

However if nothing comes back then I think icestationzebra's sugestion is perfect. He's a pretty little horse thats safe enough, he's not dangerous or difficult. He could be really useful. Maybe not a world beater but with training he could def be a nice dressage and showing horse plus hacking. Would he like sponsored rides or hunting but without going over the jumps? Just because he doesnt want to do 'proper' jumping doesnt mean that he couldnt be a lot of fun for you or someone else. In the future he may be very happy to pop round the odd fence, little showjumping course anyway.

My late horse started stopping out jumping, turns out she was in pain as she was essentially a very brave little mare with a lot of ability but at the time I didnt know that. I stopped jumping and found a really good dressage lady. My mare was built down hill, so much so that sometimes it felt like I was sitting on the edge of a cliff when riding her lol. However with my new dressage lady helping me it turned out she loved dressage. Our scores went from 46% to 76% and she was brilliant at it! I won lots of rossettes at local dressage comps. She was a lovely if a little fizzy out hacking but I had so much fun the last year on her whizzing round the common, jumping little logs, hacking to our dressage comps. I also did some showing getting placed in some classes as well. I just made the most of her and enjoyed her for what she was, a pretty, safe fun little horse and I stopped worrying about eventing or showjumping and when she died I am so happy I had that time with her just enjoying her .

 

[suzysparkle]

If it turns out to be nothing physical and he just doesn't want to jump then what about giving endurance a go?? Especially if he likes hacking. I did a pleasure ride this year and loved it, going to do more. There were loads of different types of Horses there (mine is an ISH and didn't look out of place at all), it was really friendly and easy to have a go. I was a wee bit worried how he'd react about being overtaken but it was fine. There's usually always someone else who will go with you as well if you want company.

 

[chestnut cob]

Can I ask why he needs to be massaged every other day for sore spots behind his withers? What is causing the sore spots? Surely he is compensating for something... FWIW my big horse gets sore spots (and muscle wastage) behind his withers. He also can be tricky to jump and has a dirty stop... he has ringbone and coffin joint arthritis. Not trying to scare you but I would want a full vet work up to check for problems in the legs which might be causing his attitude and those sore spots. My horse's sore spots behind the wither are a direct result of his ringbone. And as a result of that, he rarely jumps now, never bigger than 2ft6 and only when the ground is good/soft.

I also second checking out his hocks. It's perfectly possible for him to feel something like hock arthritis only when jumping, when he has to really use his hocks. At the same time, mine only feels his foreleg arthritis when jumping because obviously he has to land on them and he knows it might hurt (hence why he very rarely jumps).

 

[gunnergundog]

Regardless of any issues that may have been in existance in the past I would urge you now that he has hit the deck to get a vet out and then a physio....in THAT order.

I would also check that your saddle isn't impinging on his scapula movement. For him to have soreness behind the whithers that requires such regular attention, it would indicate to me that something somewhere is not right....be it problems in the hocks, with back pain secondary or a primary issue caused by saddle or something else.

Good luck!

 

[Leg_end]

Wouldn't a physical issue be affecting him all of the time when jumping though? If not all of the time in general? The vet will be coming out soonish for his jabs, and I need to get the physio out anyway (he's been due for a bit, but with getting strangles on the yard no one has wanted to come!), so I will ask their opinions, but my gut feeling is that it's mental...

No, my lad would jump fine on a surface but started refusing every other fence (very often the 1st) on grass. He was also fine XC. I thought it was a mental thing too and persisted for a while, gave him some time out and then he went very slightly lame behind.

Physically he seems fine. He is 100% sound - I've trotted him up on road, in circles, flexed his legs and trotted him up. I've checked for any sore points along his back, and apart from the usual ones behind his withers (he gets massaged every other day on those) there weren't any. He didn't 'flip' up onto his back, he spooked at me mid bronc, tripped, fell down and the rolled over and ended up on his back. Don't try suggesting that I don't give a **** about my horse...

Echo previous poster, why does he have sore points on his withers?

OK, he rolled onto his back but surely he had a saddle on, I would have had some one to look at him (unless you are a vet/physio yourself) but that's just my opinion. He is telling you pretty strongly there is something going on.

 

[BronsonNutter]

SummerxStarsx - Wilby's okay with poles on the floor; it just seems to be the actual 'jump' that's the issue with him. Maybe lots of polework might help him to get him really thinking where his feet are, idk...

IceStationZebra - thanks His major thing is that, with his downhill build he really struggles to work *over* his back, and so the slightest bit of tension shows up very clearly! I'm going to try and get him out to some more BD before his membership runs out, although there's not that long now (stupid uni, stupid strangles!)

NeverSayNever - thank you I just wanted something to take over where Bronson left off, which is probably why I've struggled to accept it till now...

Santa_Claus - thanks for that, although it does sound a bit scary I'll speak to the vet about it when he has his jabs, and see what she says. It's just that he was absolutely fine (no backing off, broncing etc) the last few weeks jumping, and was fine the first few times over the cross till I messed up which makes me think (/hope???) it's mental... But I'll speak to the vet about it.

Firewell - thanks Nice to hear that bum-high horses can do (very) well dressaging, although Wilby does have the added handicap of having me on board...
He has been hunting, but I don't really have enough time for it due to uni.

SuzySparkle - tbh, pleasure rides are not really my thing plus they're a bit of a nightmare when your parents have to tow the trailer places for you (I don't have a trailer license) then wait for hours without seeing what's happening. Plus I'm the worlds worst person for getting lost!

chestnut_cob - they're because of his back shape - he is croup high, has narrow shoulders and relatively low withers, so all saddles will press on that area. With his treed saddle (which I use for galloping hacks, jumping, hunting and showing) it's a passable fit when used with riser pads etc, and the rest of the time I use a treeless (again with front risers). I find it impossible to jump in the treeless.
The massaging is just to stop it getting tight round that area - the physio showed me what to do.

 

[MandyMoo]

After a similar thing with my Bugsy...used to jump nicely, but never the bravest - i would maybe take it that he is telling you he doesnt want to do it as long as you can rule out pain etc, i would say i would give up on it...i did with Bugsy and he is such a happier horse now just doing dressage!!!

best of luck, hope you're not too sore!!

 

[Sarah1]

In my humble opinion I agree with the others who have said he's trying to tell you something, somewhere hurts
As an owner of a very-awkward-to-fit-a-saddle-to-always-has-something-sore-when-physio-visits horse I feel your pain! When Bailey was a youngster he had 9 months out of work while he had tests with Sue Dyson and all manners of various treatments - turns out his was probably a lack of maturity (having been asked to do too much too soon by his previous owner) and although he was very genuine about the whole affair I knew I had to at least try to find out if there was something physically wrong before riding through it or going back to basics etc.
Hope you get it sorted either way