Would a horse fake lameness?

[Sukistokes2]

I agree with these comments. I believe any stories of such cases will have had another explanation: different ground, or lameness eased with exercise etc. I don't think horses can make connections like that.

You think what you want. It is your right. I maintain that my pony faked being lame, he was also a ex riding school pony. Animals develop behaviours that gain them what they want or need. If he limped and it got him out of work it might be that he then makes the connection. Animals can and do develop clever behaviours without being trained by us ever so clever humans. My dog alerts me to the telephone if I don't jump up and answer it on the first ring, he won't shut up until I do, I have never trained him or knowingly rewarded him for that behaviour. The said pony would also slide pole gates off with his neck. Slide / crawl under fencing, undo bolts with his teeth, pick up the broom and brush with it, drink out of a can, also would drink tea out of a cup. He could also undo screws with his teeth. If you forgot the bottom bolt he would let himself out, if it rained he would let himself in. He would snap baling twine, undo his lead rope, he was that sort of pony. Limping ....a piece of cake. Just because you haven't seen it does not mean that it doesn't happen. He did not think like a human he thought like a very clever pony!

 

[FionaM12]

You think what you want. It is your right. I maintain that my pony faked being lame, he was also a ex riding school pony. Animals develop behaviours that gain them what they want or need. If he limped and it got him out of work it might be that he then makes the connection. Animals can and do develop clever behaviours without being trained by us ever so clever humans. My dog alerts me to the telephone if I don't jump up and answer it on the first ring, he won't shut up until I do, I have never trained him or knowingly rewarded him for that behaviour. The said pony would also slide pole gates off with his neck. Slide / crawl under fencing, undo bolts with his teeth, pick up the broom and brush with it, drink out of a can, also would drink tea out of a cup. He could also undo screws with his teeth. If you forgot the bottom bolt he would let himself out, if it rained he would let himself in. He would snap baling twine, undo his lead rope, he was that sort of pony. Limping ....a piece of cake. Just because you haven't seen it does not mean that it doesn't happen. He did not think like a human he thought like a very clever pony!

All your examples are cases where the animal responded to immediate reward, as explained by Caol Ila, above. Of course they don't always need us to "teach" them things. I just personally doubt an animal can figure out complex cause and effect eg "If I do this with my leg, I avoid work". There are many more likely explanations for such lameness IMO.

 

[deicinmerlyn]

With all due respect, that's what I'm trying to do!

Sorry nancie, didn't mean to offend, was simply answering the question you asked, which was 'could a horse fake lameness'

 

[Sukistokes2]

All your examples are cases where the animal responded to immediate reward, as explained by Caol Ila, above. Of course they don't always need us to "teach" them things. I just personally doubt an animal can figure out complex cause and effect eg "If I do this with my leg, I avoid work". There are many more likely explanations for such lameness IMO.

Yep you are right, there are more likely explanations, however the question was "could a horse fake it" I think they can, Star could and did. It is not really that complex an action in the scheme of things.
I make no diagnosis on the O Ps horse as I have not seen her move, so I can not comment. I can only comment on my brilliant pony and my experiences with him over the 21 years that I had him.
We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[FionaM12]

Yep you are right, there are more likely explanations, however the question was "could a horse fake it" I think they can, Star could and did. It is not really that complex an action in the scheme of things.
I make no diagnosis on the O Ps horse as I have not seen her move, so I can not comment. I can only comment on my brilliant pony and my experiences with him over the 21 years that I had him.
We will have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I agree with these comments. I believe any stories of such cases will have had another explanation: different ground, or lameness eased with exercise etc. I don't think horses can make connections like that.

I also agree with all of this, how old is your horse? I also think many horses feel sounder on a hack as they are going in a more forward fashion and in a straight line.

 

[littleshetland]

I haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if this has already been mentioned, but, there are quite a few anecdotes from WW1 veterans, of horses faking lameness.

 

[peanut]

I also agree with all of this, how old is your horse? I also think many horses feel sounder on a hack as they are going in a more forward fashion and in a straight line.

She is 12.

Re her hocks, amymay, mild spavins were diagnosed three years ago and treated with Tildren. Her hocks were x-rayed before treatment (for diagnosis obviously) and again one year later for monitoring (i.e. two years ago) when a significant improvement was noted. When her hoof and entire leg was x-rayed a couple of months ago, comparison was made with the previous x-rays and no deterioration was seen. The vet thought it unlikely that her hock was the problem (especially as she has been fine for two years and the problem flared up over the summer months), but administered cortisone injections into her hock/upper suspensory region which should have helped if that was the problem.

I've paid out hundreds of pounds on investigations and will continue until I get to the bottom of the problem. I'm not claiming that she is faking it, just exploring every possible cause - both psychological and physical.

Thank you everyone for your input

 

[fburton]

We have a cob who used to fake lameness. When we took him out in his carriage he would often fake lameness, but he stopped after some time when he realised we were not taking him home. Yes, we know it was faked and not genuine.

How do you know? Genuinely interested to hear your reasons.

 

[fburton]

I haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if this has already been mentioned, but, there are quite a few anecdotes from WW1 veterans, of horses faking lameness.

That doesn't make them right though, does it? People have believed all kinds of things about horses, not all of which have turned out to be true.

 

[AmyMay]

Nancie - I'd be going straight back to the hocks.

 

[ester]

Me too, cortisone doesn't always help. Bute trial?

 

[Lucyad]

My horse has bone spavin, and twice flare-ups have been un-noticeable on hacks, but show up in the arena. Also flare ups of inflammation have happened a few times now over a 6 year period - it seems to come and go, so the Tildren fixing it for a while might not give a long term solution (my horse has had Adequan twice now, followed by straight line walking rehab).

He has also more recently had some lameness in his front feet, put down to mediolateral hoof imbalance when x-rayed, which again only showed up on a circle on a surface. He trotted up almost 100% sound on the road in all instances.

 

[pennyturner]

We have a horse with an old but serious shoulder injury. He's a hell of a horse, with pride, determination and an unmatched joy for life, but he's uneven, and will never be up to hard work. We hack him out a little to give him a good life because he enjoys it. My daughter maintains that she can tell when he's done too much, but is loving what he's doing and wants to stay in front.

Apparently he "fakes" being sound.

 

[peanut]

Nancie - I'd be going straight back to the hocks.

Me too, cortisone doesn't always help. Bute trial?

If cortisone doesn't help with hocks, why do so many people use it?

I always warm her up in walk on a loose rein for 10 minutes before even taking up the contact (and working in walk) as am a great believer in this for the entire anatomy.

Giving her Bute for a couple of days and then riding is something else I was wondering about trying.

Additional info: she was sound on flexion tests (on concrete)

 

[Caol Ila]

I'd say mama nature has hardwired them to "fake" being sound. A prey animal like a horse will be inclined to conceal lameness as much as it can, as limping along is like wearing a big sign around your neck saying, predators, come eat me!

 

[ITPersonnage]

Nancie as someone who's had two cortisone injections I can tell you that they are not 100% reliable, the first one lasted about a month, the second one 6 months. I bet even your vet would agree that it can be a matter or luck how effective the injections are, doesn't make them no use at all.

 

[ozpoz]

Absolutely agree with "horses do not fake lameness".
There is always a reason, always, whether it is intermittent lameness or not. No matter how intelligent the horse , (or how much low cunning it has, in the case of ponies .

 

[PolarSkye]

I'd say mama nature has hardwired them to "fake" being sound. A prey animal like a horse will be inclined to conceal lameness as much as it can, as limping along is like wearing a big sign around your neck saying, predators, come eat me!

This. Even dogs and cats (predators) "hide" pain pretty well until it's a real bother because their wild cousins would have been seen as vulnerable to other predators if obviously weak . . . this is more true of horses and other prey animals.

I'm another one with a horse who is really good at "faking" being sound. Through all of Kal's rehab for a suspensory injury and then aggravated navicular, he looked completely sound in the field - charging about in canter and doing some rather impressive extended trot . . . but in the school the lameness really showed up. If heard "there's nothing wrong with that horse - look at him in the field - get on and ride it" once, I heard it a thousand times.

Of course he wasn't "faking" anything - he's clever, but he's not THAT clever - he's a "hot" horse and adrenalin was allowing him to run/push through the pain, making him look sound. I'm pretty sure that if I'd taken him out to a competition during his rehab, he's have looked sound (even though he wasn't) - adrenalin can hide a multitude of sins and all that.

P

 

[beryls2001]

I had a pony who would be mysteriously lame nearly every show morning. And sound the next day.

 

[StarlightMagic]

I had a mare who could fake lameness, she could 'hop' very convincingly, and it was purely put on when I first bought her and she wanted to try her luck! I had her nearly 10 years and she never had a day lame or any issues with legs what so ever. So I do believe they can fake lameness, however in this case I'd be wanting to look at the hocks again (xrays etc) x

 

[ozpoz]

It isn't just legs that can cause lame symptoms though. It can be backs, necks, ribs, sternum, shoulders... or saddles, riders.... It can be very difficult to pinpoint and can be expensive, which is one reason for all the cognitive dissonance! : )

 

[PolarSkye]

It isn't just legs that can cause lame symptoms though. It can be backs, necks, ribs, sternum, shoulders... or saddles, riders.... It can be very difficult to pinpoint and can be expensive, which is one reason for all the cognitive dissonance! : )

And this . Six months off games, some of that pacing the fence line because he was lonely/unhappy (now rectified) left my boy with all sorts of "hot spots" which were making him look unlevel/not right in the school . . . appropriate physio (with permission from/collaberation with our lovely vet) is correcting this - third treatment this weekend.

P

 

[ester]

It isn't just legs that can cause lame symptoms though. It can be backs, necks, ribs, sternum, shoulders... or saddles, riders.... It can be very difficult to pinpoint and can be expensive, which is one reason for all the cognitive dissonance! : )

very true, have known neck arthritis cause similar issues in the school (asking to be round/bend) but no issues hacking.

 

[SpringArising]

How do you know? Genuinely interested to hear your reasons.

Also interested.

Unless you have the only talking horse on the planet, you can't and don't know.

 

[Little-miss-perfect]

I believe they can. Once had a cheeky mare who would do this, was concerned to start with, so did the stupid thing of ending session, she cottoned on to this but if my friend got on she went perfect. Started to ignore her and she gave up after a while.

 

[Caol Ila]

I still want to know how all these deceptive horses figure out that it's the lameness that is getting them out of work. To a horse, that's surely as random a variable as the color shirt you're wearing, whether or not a seagull flew overhead, and whether the farmer is driving his tractor around the next door field. Unless you feel the horse take a few limping steps and immediately leap off its back, and do this consistently over a few sessions, how is it going to know? Most of us, as I said, putz around and have to think about it for a few minutes and maybe do a circle, a long side, is it lame on a turn, on the flat, etc. Then maybe get off, or put it on the lunge or trot it up so someone can see.

There are reasons why a horse might look unlevel with one rider and not another.

 

[Pinkvboots]

She is 12.

Re her hocks, amymay, mild spavins were diagnosed three years ago and treated with Tildren. Her hocks were x-rayed before treatment (for diagnosis obviously) and again one year later for monitoring (i.e. two years ago) when a significant improvement was noted. When her hoof and entire leg was x-rayed a couple of months ago, comparison was made with the previous x-rays and no deterioration was seen. The vet thought it unlikely that her hock was the problem (especially as she has been fine for two years and the problem flared up over the summer months), but administered cortisone injections into her hock/upper suspensory region which should have helped if that was the problem.

I've paid out hundreds of pounds on investigations and will continue until I get to the bottom of the problem. I'm not claiming that she is faking it, just exploring every possible cause - both psychological and physical.

Thank you everyone for your input

Ok so she is only 12 might be worth having an mri done, I dont know if you have been having most investigations done at your yard or at the vets, might be worth getting refered to one of the bigger Equine hospitals and having a fresh pair of experienced eyes and a full lameness investigation to get to the bottom of it now as it has been going on.