Would she benefit from draw reins?

[251libby]

I know there is alot of contraversy (sp) on the subject of draw reins on this forum, but this is a genuine post as I would like to know if you guys think my mare would benefit from using them.
I have used them a couple of times before but my girl has not worn them.
She is a welsh D that I have owned for 5 years so in no way would I be trying to use them as a quick fix! She has a nice natural carrige and is very foward so there is no fear of 'lack of impulsion!' But we're starting to turn our hand at dressage and really would like to improve enough so that we can do a decent prelim test by the end of the year. Her head carrige is a bit high and nose is a bit pokey out-ey (the technical term). So was thinking I would use the draw reins for a couple of sessions just so she gets the idea?? what do you think?
Or if you dont think this is a good idea can you recomend something that will help?

Would really appritiate any thoughts on this

 

[Halfstep]

I am by no means an anti draw reins person, and they do have a use in the right hands and the right circumstances. However, in this case, I would say firstly, do you have a good dressage trainer from whom you can get some guidance and lessons? It could well be the case that with training and correct timing and aids she will learn more easily than with draw reins?

 

[galaxy]

No.

I think that only a small percentage of people who use draw reins probably use them correctly. Most horses sit behind the contact which is totally incorrect.

I agree with the previous reply. Have you had some lessons? Been given school exercises to help you horse soften naturally?

When I go to a dressage comp I think you can always see from a mile away which horses are ridden in draw reins.

 

[natalia]

I think you would be using them for the wrong reason. You would be better to give her a good lunge in side reins and mouth her with these to help her get the idea of where to put her head. By strapping her down in draw reins you will only make her very sore as it sounds like she's never been taught to work long and low. I'm by no means "anti" draw reins and use them on my mare to help with canter work as she runs through the bridle and is a big girl. The difference is my horse can already work correctly on the flat and understands he contact.

 

[Roody2]

If she's a bit up and out then a change of bit could be what's needed. Have you tried a hanging cheek snaffle for a bit of poll pressure to encourage the head down? Or also a mullen mouth may be easier for your horse to accept the bit and take her head down.

I wouldn't recommend draw reins or side reins TBH, they can do more harm than good if used incorrectly or too much.

A lungeing aid you could use is the pessoa (or similar cheaper versions), it has a positioning that runs down through the front legs that encourages the horse to work lower and rounder over the back with good flexion without restricting sideways (like side reins can do).

 

[ISHmad]

I'd find a nice classical dressage instructor and leave the draw reins in the tack shop myself.

 

[stencilface]

I personally wouldn't use draw reins in this circumstance, I woudl be looking at bitting perhaps, and/or a new instructor.

I don't mind draw reins, but I would tend to use them for more control purposes on younger/naughty horses as a short term thing

 

[teddyt]

I personally wouldn't use draw reins in this circumstance, I woudl be looking at bitting perhaps, and/or a new instructor.

I agree with this. First check to make sure that there isnt a specific reason for the high head carriage (saddle, teeth, bit, rider, etc) then stick to schooling to build the muscles and train the horse to work in a better frame.

 

[251libby]

Thanks so much for all your replies, I do have an instructor but use the same one for jumping and flatwork and tbh our flat work is always aimed towards jumping better. So maybe I should get someone more classical solely for DR, if anyone knows of anyone in the west sussex area that would be good?
I popped on a few pics of our schooling attempts, it'll give you guys a better idea of how she is working ;

and one from first DR comp

oh and teddy t - tack, back teeth etc etc are all fine

 

[flyingfeet]

Dear lord I am shocked at the replies

Side reins - teaches incorrect bend and how to respond to a fixed dead contact. Also socks them in the mouth if they stumble!

Pessoa - Great for bondage lovers, usually set up so that the horse is jabbed in the mouth by the back leg. Great for really getting your horse nice and steady for the unbalanced rider who has a tendancy to balance themselves on the reins, as horse learns to maintain position despite being socked in the mouth!

Draw reins - Not really worse than the above, but think of them like getting your granny to touch her toes, you wouldn't use and hold her there for hours and neither should you with a horse with no muscle. However I do think they are good for the horse getting the 'gist' of things, but should be used only for short periods (under 10 mins) if your horses neck is upside down.

Chambon - my love and passion, a device that gets the horse balanced on the lunge, encourages correct bend and doesn't sock them in the mouth if they trip and stumble. Builds up the back muscles, you cannot go wrong with this one. Often seenered at by bondage lovers as not complex enough and doesn't get that dressage look instantly.

 

[Katie__Connie]

Not an expert by any means but I'm really not a fan of side reins for reasons CotswoldSJ has mentioned...

 

[Foxglove]

Chambon - my love and passion, a device that gets the horse balanced on the lunge, encourages correct bend and doesn't sock them in the mouth if they trip and stumble. Builds up the back muscles, you cannot go wrong with this one. Often seenered at by bondage lovers as not complex enough and doesn't get that dressage look instantly.[/QUOTE]

Completely agree with this. Chambons are so mis understood and underused as a training aid.

A de-gogue may also assist once some muscle has been built up but I would speak to your current instructor first and say what it is you need help on. It may be that she thinks its jumping you wanted sorted. If not, a new instructor maybe useful.

I'm not in anyway against draw reins used correctly on a horse that will actually go from behind and understands contact. But from the pictures I really don't think they will be a good idea as although she is looks 'forward' she is not actually coming from behind strongly and carrying herself correctly. Draw reins would just cause her to become heavy in front and leave her hind legs in the next county.

Definately perservere with an instructor, she looks lovely and 'floats' beautifully. A little bit of work and you'll be well away!

 

[teddyt]

Your saddle looks like its too far forward, particularly in the dressage comp pic. If the points of the tree arent behind the shoulder blades the horse physicaly wont be able to work rounder. Check by feel when you tack up and not just by sight. Its a tiny thing that can make a huge difference. (it may not be the whole answer but a good contribution).

What bit is it? It just looks like shes tense in the jaw in a couple of pics too (not overly clear). Does the bit suit her mouth conformation? It may not be due to the bit but worth considering

 

[251libby]

teddy t - the saddle is a jumping saddle hense why it may look too far fowards -- I am a bit obsessive about those kinds of things so really hope it isn't actually fowards!
She is in a NS loose ring snaffle (the one with the peanut) she has quite a big touge so it's a thinish bit to fit.

 

[teddyt]

teddy t - the saddle is a jumping saddle hense why it may look too far fowards -- I am a bit obsessive about those kinds of things so really hope it isn't actually fowards!

No, im looking at the line of her shoulder blade and where the points of the tree would be. The flap doesnt matter because thats flexible but where the tree points would be looks to be too far forward to me. Worth checking next time you tack up?

 

[stencilface]

Ok, so I am not an expert by ANY means, and my dressage scores will attest to that

But to me, your horse looks like she is going forwards, but perhaps not using herself properly, I would try and get a recommedation for a good dressage instructor and go from there

 

[251libby]

Thank you all so much for replies --
It seems that everyone is saying not to use the draw reins so at least we are agreed on that!

Teddy t - thank you I will definatly look at the saddle when I next tack up and make sure it's in exactly the right place....I will feel terrible if it's something I have been doing reguarly

 

[lillith]

I think I have been beaten to it, I was going to say is she forward going or going forward from behind? I know it sounds like semantics but there is a difference .

I think lots of lateral work, lots of bending lateraly and lots of leg to get that bum working would probably help. I'm no expert but i love leg yielding off a circle for flexing.

 

[teddyt]

Lots of people put the saddle too far forward! Ive seen adverts in horse and hound for mega bucks horses and the rider is sat on the shoulder blade. The key is to go by feel as well as by sight- as just putting the saddle where it looks right is frequently too far forward. If you lift up the saddle flap and see where the tree points are in relation to your fingers placed at the back of the shoulder blade then its more accurate.

As i said, a common mistake but just a cm too far forward can make a big difference so worth checking by feel every time you tack up.

 

[Roody2]

Dear lord I am shocked at the replies

Pessoa - Great for bondage lovers, usually set up so that the horse is jabbed in the mouth by the back leg. Great for really getting your horse nice and steady for the unbalanced rider who has a tendancy to balance themselves on the reins, as horse learns to maintain position despite being socked in the mouth!
.

Thanks for that generalisation, not all of us tress our horses up in the pessoa like hog-tied urm, hogs. They can be very useful when used correctly and appropriately.

OP, you could also try the Team Fredericks lungie bungie, you can use it on the lunge or when you are riding, very flexible and allows good sideways movement.
http://www.libbys-tack.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=72

 

[ester]

I really like your pony

does your instructor ever ride her?

I have to say my first suggestion would be to get a good flatwork instructor and you might get some enlightening moments, its also amazing sitting on when they have tuned your pony up for you.

I did start with the opposite sort of problem with Frank, he was always round..... as in looked fine in front but was never really moving forwards or tracking up and hence not working properly over the top (we started on this when he was about 13/14). He is still a bit of a lazy bugger but much much better at working correctly and is a joy to school because of it but lots of lessons down the line

 

[NWalker]

I know of a fantastic instructor in West Sussex. I think she lives in Henfield so don't know how near that is to you. Her name is Alison Short and she is also a BD Judge. Brilliant instructor. She has been coming to our stables for the last 3 to 4 for months and we have all made huge improvements in our riding. She is also a lovely person. Let me know if want her number.

 

[cobface]

Ditto about the instructor
I know what worked for my mare was lots and lots of leg, bending and circles.
I did use side reins on the lunge once (loosely) she hated the restriction and tried to rear and almost fell backwards never again - she would be the same in draw reins so we streer clear of these, she is hard work but we do achieve a nice outline and she uses herself properly and is starting to develop muscle in all the right places

 

[Shutterbug]

My instructor recommended lunging with a bungee for a few weeks, then we tried some ridden work with the bungee for a few weeks - we swapped a french link for a lozenge and he loves that - we now have a few lessons a week to build on what we have now achieved and I have to say he is going really well

 

[R2R]

In order to use draw reins, you should be able to get your horse working properly and in an outline without them first and have the feel to know that your horse is working properly.

I only ever use mine out hacking, where my horse is such as pooky twit that they help me stop wrestling him and they serve as a reminder.

Has your instructor ever sat on your horse?

 

[Kenzo]

Is she any different in her way of going on the lunge? do she drop and come a little rounder or does she do the same?

I don't think draw reins should be ruled out, but I do think you should explore other options first.

Getting someone with a good eye or a good RI to observe her on the lunge first, see how she moves, how she uses herself without the interference of a rider (if you see what I mean) and work her regularly, to see if you can see a pattern of changes, sometimes depending on how fit a horse is and what exactly you do on the lunge can change the way of going and they can start to work and use themselves properly...without the use of any lunging aid, also it gives you a better idea of what will help, should you need to use something, you need to choose something that works best for your individual horse, after all they all different shapes and sizes and conformation plays a huge part too I think for example your mare seems to have a quite a short neck.

The saddle does appear to be sat too forward, but without seeing her without tack on, we can’t see exactly how she’s built, but you do appear to be riding up he neck a bit and draw reins or anything else for that matter won’t sort that out. Personally I’d investigate this to see if your saddle fits her correctly, if not, then just time and schooling will eventually sort it all, takes time to undo wrong muscles and develop new ones, even if it takes 4 to 6 months, it can be done without force or gadgets or changing the bit. Could be that the saddle is in the right place due to her shape.

Sometimes however I think depending on how a horse or pony is built, we have to accept that some horses and ponies are not ever going to go in a perfect looking outline due to how they are physically put together, providing the horse is working correctly behind and up into the bridle and is comfortable, providing there not hollowing, I wouldn’t worry too much if the head is above the vertical unless your wanting to go very far in dressage, in which case you’d buy something better suited for the job…if you get what I’m saying.

Also you have to bare in mind that should you decide to use a lunging aid, what ever it is, it has to introduced slowly, people sometimes tend to forget and slap them on straight away, before they have even given the horse chance to warm up freely on the lunge and loosen any tight muscles through the neck, back and hind legs, so doing daily carrot stretches for example will also help (for the neck and shoulder muscles)

Some people over use lunging aids and therefore cause more harm than good, be like you putting your chin to your chest and looking down and holding it there for 20 seconds, you'll feel tenderness and pain going down you back, same with horses, so you need to do it slowly and on a setting that is only a tad lower than your horses normal way of going, and adjust accordingly over time.

Also if you horse is not used to 'giving and softening on contact' though the mouth, anything clipped to the bit is only going to cause tension elsewhere, or make the horse panic or sore in the mouth because setting the horse in a few frame is going to cause discomfort so if your using something to lunge with, remember to use it for a short period of time and cool/stretch off without it.

If I was you, I’d be thinking about what your instructor says or possibly thinking about changing your instructor and trying lessons with someone else, that could be the simple answer, perhaps you just need to ride her more into a contact and using differnt schooling exercises will help, as well as double checking the saddle/back situation, then I’d give it time and take it from there?, see if there is any changes after a few months?, if not then decide on using something when lunging, that's what I'd do anyway.

sorry totally rambled on....

 

[251libby]

Sorry for not replying was supprised to see this post dragged up as it was posted back in May!
Since posting I have changed instructors and moved yards and the difference has been amazing! I didn't use draw reins! lol I have also changed my saddle to one more suited to her shape as the one in pics was in the right place it just didn't fit her aswell as it could.
I have been working her in a spiraling circle which has helped bring her though from behind, made her use her back and soften into a nice contact. Also, been doing weird half figures of 8 like tear drop shapes which ahs also really benefited, my new instructor has been riding her once a month aswel and thats help no end.
So thank you for all your replies and as you can see I have taken your advice and come out for the better, will post some recent (hopefully better!) pics at the weekend so you can give me more tips! Thanks alot

 

[Kenzo]

That's brilliant news.

Never even realised your post was an old one .....banged for no reason...oh well, kept me out of trouble for 5 minutes

 

[Seahorse]

pleased to hear you didn't use draw reins in the end and have found a good instructor that has shown you how to do lots of different exercises that will get your horse working properly

 

[Allover]

If she's a bit up and out then a change of bit could be what's needed. Have you tried a hanging cheek snaffle for a bit of poll pressure to encourage the head down? Or also a mullen mouth may be easier for your horse to accept the bit and take her head down.

I wouldn't recommend draw reins or side reins TBH, they can do more harm than good if used incorrectly or too much.

A lungeing aid you could use is the pessoa (or similar cheaper versions), it has a positioning that runs down through the front legs that encourages the horse to work lower and rounder over the back with good flexion without restricting sideways (like side reins can do).

Why would you even consider advising someone to change the bit on their horse without having the first clue as to how the horse goes and how the rider rides, horses only come into a correct outline by working from behind with suppleness, and i agree with the other posts, gadgets should not be used by everyone, personally think they should be banned from general sale.