Would you charge for this at livery?

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SuperCat007

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Broken fence rails (snapped in the middle from horse 'chesting'/kicking them). About 6.

Corner post, bent over the years of horses using the corner as a leaning post to sleep (not the same horse consistently in the field). But has got worse with this particular combination of horses, so the rails now regularly pop out. 1

All liveries pay about £130 a month for DIY livery. Can't find the contract right now. But I do remember it saying that fencing between horses is responsibility of livery owner (copied from generic legal livery agreement).

Just curious because I'm not sure whether I should or not. I have the supplies, but some are hesitant to pay. One pony has broken about 4 on his own so this will add around £30ish to her livery bill.
 
Would have thought YO would pay for fencing to be honest, as it is one of the things that can expect wear and tear. I might insist that the owner runs electric tape across the top rail if it's a recurring problem.
 
I'd tell the person whose horse is doing the damage that further damage will need to be paid for.

I wouldn't charge the group for the corner post to me that's wear and tear

Perhaps consider an electric strand inside the top rail of that particular paddock?
 
I would not expect the liveries to pay to replace p&r between horses as it is going to be vulnerable to damage however good the horses are, if one is regularly damaging it then the YO should either move said horse to somewhere it cannot do any damage or put up some electric tape to minimise it, if you do not allow the use of tape and do not have horses separated by more than p&r then I think you need to bear the costs yourself.
It is why DIY is often not worth doing, the expenses can outweigh the income very quickly if you have a few boisterous horses.
 
It sounds like the YO has not invested in offset electric fencing on existing fences, but then liveries would have been expected to have inspected the fencing and accepted it 'as is' or insisted on modifications. When I let livery, there was a clause in the contract stating that. Frankly, this is one of those 'How long is a piece of string?' questions. I think the livery should pay but insist horses are fenced off wooden posts with electric in the future. If that is not done, they either continue to pay on the basis that they've accepted the existing conditions or leave.

If a livery accepted grazing with fencing constructed of broken posts and sagging wire and the horse was injured, or got out and caused damage, who do you think should be liable? The horse owner, of course, as they should know what standard of fencing is required to safely contain their own horse. Not all animals can be fenced in with the same type or standard of fencing.

Of course, if posts break because they've rotted through, that is the YO's responsibility. "Fair wear and tear" and routine maintenance. If serviceable fencing is broken, see above.
 
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I think it is up to the yard owner to make sure the fences are suitable for the animals kept there. If they are getting damaged they regularly they could be electrified.
 
Post and rail without electric protection of some kind never lasts very long with horses. As a yard owner, you are responsible for supplying appropriate fencing I am afraid. You can try making an owner pay for repairs but unless a particular horse has actually been seen doing something most horses would not normally do (i.e. rubbing or chewing) it is likely to sour things between you and the liveries.
 
Goldenstar said:
I can't believe a YOer expects liverys to pay to maintain the yard .
It's ridiculous .
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This. Also if a pony is regularly breaking rails then I sounds to m as though the fencing isn't strong enough for the job in the first place.
 
Another reason for not doing livery any more. I had one owner who refused to let her horse be near electric fencing but it used to rub its tail on the rails until they broke. Net result was the 'profit' (I use that term with a sickening laugh) becomes and major loss to the YO - bye bye liveries. Result - peaceful yard with my own horses and much less damage.

For the information of all liveries who do not buy fencing - this months prices are half round rails just over £5 each, half round post £3. Add to that nails and the cost of the manpower to erect said fence and you will surely see that paying £130 per month for the use of a stable, yard and fenced paddock does not account for any regular breakages/chewing etc etc.
 
I have a clause in my contract which states:

"Damage caused by horses that is due to normal wear and tear, will not normally be charged to owners of the horses responsible. However, where a horse is deemed particularly destructive, or where the damage is excessive or repeated more often than is normally expected, then the costs may be passed on to the owners of the horse responsible for the damage. This is entirely at the Yard Manager’s discretion."

An example occurred only a few weeks ago where one of my livery horses tried to follow me out of the field by jumping a five bar gate. She broke the top of the gate in doing so, but luckily didn't have a scratch on her. I replaced the gate at a cost of £160 and did not charge the owner as this was a freak occurrence and the horse had never done such a thing before or since. If however, she made a habit out of trashing gates, I would have to think again.
 
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Thanks for the replies. It's hard because the pony doing a lot of the damage gets on very well with his neighbour, the neighbour has only broken one rail leaning on it to graze over the fence. But this pony leans so far into the other pony's field that they keep snapping, or he kicks and squeals over the fence and again kicks through them. One owner is willing to fence the field with electric tape so they're a bit more separate, but for now her fencing is being used to separate her field in half to save some grass so she'd have to sacrifice that. I kind of feel that it is the responsibility of the other owner to pay and fence off her side of the field, as before her pony arrived the other pony would pop out corner rails by leaning on them, but not so badly they couldn't be hammered back in, but that was the only damage he'd do. It's only since the other pony arrived that the corner post has started to bend, the top rail has popped out, wouldn't hammer back in and has since snapped.

The owner with the fencing has also always said that hers gets destructive when near other horses, hence he's always been on his own. But the new owner wanted hers to have a field shelter, so there was no choice but to put her pony on the other side of the older pony. It just feels very unfair to penalise the older owner when her pony hardly destroyed a thing until this other pony arrived. But the new woman is hardly ever here and I rarely see her and I doubt she'd be very happy at all if I asked her to fence off her field as she doesn't even own electric fencing. Politics...
 
I don't do diy livery because I couldn't stand by when owners don't care for their horses to my standards. Are you saying this owner hardly comes? That is just not on for a horse on DIY livery. I would be expecting her horse to be seen to twice daily and if not I would give a warning, which if not heeded, would lead to notice being given. You don't need this kind of livery!
 
planete said:
Post and rail without electric protection of some kind never lasts very long with horses. As a yard owner, you are responsible for supplying appropriate fencing I am afraid.
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This.

However, knowing how much it costs to install and maintain decent fencing and facilities, and how little most livery bills are, I am not surprised that much fencing is substandard. The sums don't add up.

Here is my 3yo post and rail fencing, with off set electric string. We put the electric fencing on ourselves. The fencing contractor was so impressed with what we'd done that he took photographs to show prospective clients how to horse proof their new fencing.

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The paddocks shown are currently growing hay, but will at other times have horses on either side of the fence. We run lead out cable or under gate cable beneath the gateways, enclosed in blue water piping, to continue the circuit.

We wondered if we might need to run more string along the top of the posts to deter chewing, but it hasn't been necessary.
 
Unless the fencing was new and appropriate when I arrived I would not appreciate being asked to pay for repairs, and that is as a current livery who used to keep horse at home and post and rail fenced 4.5 acres, split in 2 10 years ago. In that time it has required little maintenance - apart from when a neighbour reversed her car through it and took a post out at ground level...

Round posts and 2 half round rails with electric on the top to stop chewing- this also seems to have stopped any rubbing though they would occasionally rub necks on the bottom rail!

Tiddlypom are your gates wooden? Only because I wondered if they were not protected? As we run from battery we have electric gates too.
 
She comes once a day I think. Most other liveries only come once a day as well which I'm happy about because there is always someone here and all the others live in the village and I often see them driving past the fields, even if they don't come in.

This woman works shifts so I could just be missing her. It's her first horse and she's very inexperienced. Whilst her care doesn't meet with my standards I don't want to upset everything just yet over a couple of rails.

But anyway, I'm not too worried about her care for the horse because I'm always here just in case (which I will charge for if I have to step in and care for her pony myself). I'm more worried about upsetting the balance with the older owner and the rails snapping. Some do need replacing because they're old, but they aren't so bad that the occasional lean or buck would snap them like they are at the moment. I'm hoping it will settle down as the newer one settles as well. I suppose I'll have to put it to the new one that she ought to buy some electric fencing and fence the barrier of her field, they'll still be able to groom, but hopefully there'll be enough of a barrier to discourage either of them from being too destructive.
 
ester said:
Tiddlypom are your gates wooden? Only because I wondered if they were not protected? As we run from battery we have electric gates too.
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Most of the gates are plain metal farm gates. I have learnt the hard way not to open them wide and back onto the string ;). OH put some wooden stoppers on to stop me electrifying myself!

We have one wooden pedestrian gate (to the garden), and I have run a section of electric string along the top rail, but its not connected up to anything. However, the horses think that it is electrified, so they don't chew the rail :).

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ETA. Because I only have my own horses here, I'm ok with having two groups separated by just a gate in places. I could run more electric fencing to further separate them if there was any squabbling.
 
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Goldenstar said:
I can't believe a YOer expects liverys to pay to maintain the yard .
It's ridiculous .
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This.

We run electric fencing round the inside of our drystone walls, to stop damage from rubbing, leaning over to talk to neighbours etc. and if you think p&r fencing is expensive to replace, you should try replacing walls!
 
If the rails are close to snapping that's a major safety concern. I've had a horse impaled on a fence post before, the horse was lucky to survive. If it's your yard policy that liveries are responsible for ensuring their horses don't damage fence posts I would discuss this ASAP with livery before there are vet bills (no doubt you would be blamed for this for having inadequate fencing or something).

Tbh I think you have a fair policy and if she has signed this agreement then what's the problem?
 
For me this is something a decent YO should be saving up a bit of everyone's livery money for... You can easily predict that you're going to need to repair fencing from time to time and ought to adapt it as needed to work for the horses you're housing.
 
SuperCat007 said:
Broken fence rails (snapped in the middle from horse 'chesting'/kicking them). About 6.

Corner post, bent over the years of horses using the corner as a leaning post to sleep (not the same horse consistently in the field). But has got worse with this particular combination of horses, so the rails now regularly pop out. 1

All liveries pay about £130 a month for DIY livery. Can't find the contract right now. But I do remember it saying that fencing between horses is responsibility of livery owner (copied from generic legal livery agreement).

Just curious because I'm not sure whether I should or not. I have the supplies, but some are hesitant to pay. One pony has broken about 4 on his own so this will add around £30ish to her livery bill.
Click to expand...
If it were accident from kicking fence for any reason like new horse in adjacent or rubbing on it then NO!


If it was a destructive horse constantly breaking fencing to get through the fence or from the same horse over and over then I would expect the horses owner to cover the cost or replace it.

I have fallen into that before when a very very destructive clydesdate - who I found out later had done it at previous yard. Would literally stand there if he chose to get into adjacent field would get his head over the fence and lean down and push forward the fence till it snapped and broke.

She later got told to leave - as it repeatedly did this and one time we by meaning a livery and me were on the back yard talking when we heard a S....N....A.....P...!!!!!! and we looked up to see this bloody thing leaning down and the rail broken.
 
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I think OP that as YO you have to ascertain whether this comes under the category of "running repairs", or whether it is "deliberate damage".

There are some horses/ponies that will trash just ANYTHING; a few years ago now we had some horses here as a group and one of the mares would just kick out at the fencing for the sheer hell of it. Owner flatly refused to believe me when I told them so and that the fencing would need repairing!! :(

We had another pony here, who would crawl UNDERNEATH the post & rails fencing - I hardly believed it, even when I saw it!!

It is always a good idea to establish in any yard contract, just what (and what not) the owner/YO is responsible for, and for YO to stick to that.

My inclination is always to say that "if your horse broke it, you repair it", but I run a very small concern with just the one livery, and she runs her horses together in "her" field - and she's a fantastic livery, a real peach, and would pay in any case........ but when there are a group of horses and you don't know exactly which one is the problem, then the situation is less clear, and the YO in this situation is liable to be the Demon of the piece of she charges anyone for the damage. YO may just have to pay up and look sweet on this occasion, and instigate a better and more efficient system of fencing for the future.

Best thing would be to separate these horses for a start. If P&R fencing is what's already there, YO get that repaired and then bang in a double row of insulators inside and run an electrified wire on the side where the horses are, preferably with mains electric if you can.

Also you could consider fencing the horses off into smaller paddocks within the main field, in smaller groupings to enable rotation.
 
SuperCat007 said:
Thanks for the replies. It's hard because the pony doing a lot of the damage gets on very well with his neighbour, the neighbour has only broken one rail leaning on it to graze over the fence. But this pony leans so far into the other pony's field that they keep snapping, or he kicks and squeals over the fence and again kicks through them. One owner is willing to fence the field with electric tape so they're a bit more separate, but for now her fencing is being used to separate her field in half to save some grass so she'd have to sacrifice that. I kind of feel that it is the responsibility of the other owner to pay and fence off her side of the field, as before her pony arrived the other pony would pop out corner rails by leaning on them, but not so badly they couldn't be hammered back in, but that was the only damage he'd do. It's only since the other pony arrived that the corner post has started to bend, the top rail has popped out, wouldn't hammer back in and has since snapped.

The owner with the fencing has also always said that hers gets destructive when near other horses, hence he's always been on his own. But the new owner wanted hers to have a field shelter, so there was no choice but to put her pony on the other side of the older pony. It just feels very unfair to penalise the older owner when her pony hardly destroyed a thing until this other pony arrived. But the new woman is hardly ever here and I rarely see her and I doubt she'd be very happy at all if I asked her to fence off her field as she doesn't even own electric fencing. Politics...
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I have a tip that works for us - not to expensive assuming your post and rails throughout. Why not shuffle the rails around and add an extra one so you have 4 rails. If you put them with a gap of 9 inches from the base of the top rail to the top of the next rail and so on down, they cannot get their head through. My boy did this after copying this damn clydesdale and I added an extra rail problem solved.

This is our new fence done this way and we still have the older fence I was talking about where we just added rail 2 so the old rail 2 became rail 3 and then rail 3 became rail 4for the moment to stop damage then will be replaced with new.,
IMG_0583_zpsqiro60qa.jpg
 
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