Would you cover their vet bill?

[AmyMay]

Any update op?

 

[Xmasha]

Absolutely not OP .

 

[Pipps]

I find it similarly frustrating when you're in a public place and people let their dogs run up to every human/dog in sight without a care in the world, particularly up to on lead dogs that may be reactive, in training, not dog friendly, etc and are being appropriately handled by their owners. People need to take responsibility for the actions of the animals in their care and not let them run loose if they don't listen.

This! The amount of arguments I've gotten into when my dog has been on lead and another dog runs up with an "oh don't worry he's friendly" shouted from an owner in the distance ?

 

[Antw23uk]

No OP I wouldnt be paying towards the vet bill and this will be an incredibly awkward situation to be in, i feel for you, its not fair at all

I would have given my horse what for if it had kicked a dog though, that is unacceptable (unless dog was acting aggressively towards horse and you have not said it was) Kicking is an absolute no no, that could have been some dumb toddler walking too close!

Now you have a known kicker you do have a responsibility to ensure you dont put your horse in that situation again because now you do have a duty of care simply by knowing your horse has kicked!

 

[Goldenstar]

Horses can be trained to accept dogs around them mine have to because they are hunters .
They have to learn to stand with dogs around them and accept them popping out all al over the place
I am very careful when get a new horse until I see how they are going to be .
If I bought a horse who was not good with dogs I would part with it .The dogs are also horse savvy and know the rules .
If I was a yard owner I would not allow liveries dogs on the yard .

I don‘t believe the horses and dogs don’t mix thing it runs counter to the experience of over fifty years .
I agree with post above OP now needs to watch this horse that sort of quick reaction could easily be deployed against a child who ges itself in the wrong place .

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Horses can be trained to accept dogs around them mine have to because they are hunters .
They have to learn to stand with dogs around them and accept them popping out all al over the place
I am very careful when get a new horse until I see how they are going to be .
If I bought a horse who was not good with dogs I would part with it .The dogs are also horse savvy and know the rules .
If I was a yard owner I would not allow liveries dogs on the yard .

I don‘t believe the horses and dogs don’t mix thing it runs counter to the experience of over fifty years .
I agree with post above OP now needs to watch this horse that sort of quick reaction could easily be deployed against a child who ges itself in the wrong place .

They generally aren't a good mix though. You are training your horses and dogs. You are careful. A vast majority of people are not careful nor are they training as you are. So generally they don't mix. Mostly due to humans.

 

[paddy555]

Now you have a known kicker you do have a responsibility to ensure you dont put your horse in that situation again because now you do have a duty of care simply by knowing your horse has kicked!

struggling a bit with this. A known kicker or simply a horse being a horse that was startled, upset or defending itself.

My haflinger kicked me and nearly broke my thigh. He had never kicked before, was good around kids and dogs and I frequently walked underneath him to save going round. He was perfectly safe. Then one day we had a picnic on the common. We did it lots of times, he was used to it. He was turned loose, no bridle/headcollar to graze. Saddle still on and saddle bags on the saddle. I walked up behind him. His mind was on the grass, I made the mistake of assuming he would know where I was. It was my fault, I startled him and he reacted like a horse.

Would he be a known kicker or would I just be a very stupid human who didn't bother to read and communicate with my horse. Horses are horses, they are flight animals, they can react. Keep kids and dogs under control. Don't label a horse as something for behaving in a natural fashion when it is tied up.

 

[Arzada]

struggling a bit with this. A known kicker or simply a horse being a horse that was startled, upset or defending itself.

Would he be a known kicker or would I just be a very stupid human who didn't bother to read and communicate with my horse. Horses are horses, they are flight animals, they can react. Keep kids and dogs under control. Don't label a horse as something for behaving in a natural fashion when it is tied up.

Exactly. Victim blaming.

I don't see why a prey animal ie the horse is expected to only react to a predator ie the dog when a human determines that the dog is being aggressive. The OP's horse clearly felt threatened by the close proximity of the prey animal. And being tied up flight isn't an option so it's fight.

 

[Equine_Dream]

struggling a bit with this. A known kicker or simply a horse being a horse that was startled, upset or defending itself.

My haflinger kicked me and nearly broke my thigh. He had never kicked before, was good around kids and dogs and I frequently walked underneath him to save going round. He was perfectly safe. Then one day we had a picnic on the common. We did it lots of times, he was used to it. He was turned loose, no bridle/headcollar to graze. Saddle still on and saddle bags on the saddle. I walked up behind him. His mind was on the grass, I made the mistake of assuming he would know where I was. It was my fault, I startled him and he reacted like a horse.

Would he be a known kicker or would I just be a very stupid human who didn't bother to read and communicate with my horse. Horses are horses, they are flight animals, they can react. Keep kids and dogs under control. Don't label a horse as something for behaving in a natural fashion when it is tied up.

Have to say I agree with this completely. It just highlights why dogs and toddlers should not be left to run loose around yards. The horse was tied up and reacted to something it felt was a threat. Any horse has the potential to react to something like this no matter how safe or well trained they may be. That's just horses for you.

 

[Goldenstar]

What exactly is the horse a victim of ?
The dog is a victim of having a dim owner
I just don’t get these people who think ridden horses can’t be trained not to do things like kick .
Or that you can’t train a dog how to behave around horses or stock .
My horses know that kicking when wearing a head collar is not acceptable thats why my horses won’t kick a vet or a farrier who is doing something that hurts them .
Blue arrived not great to handle a bit aggressive tbh but he fat unhappy and in pain from appallingly neglected skin on his legs .
He‘s not now because I worked to train him that world is different here .

 

[dorsetladette]

Horrible situation to be in. I feel for you OP. I was put in a similar situation when my cob kicked a mare in the field and really hurt her. She was in season and harassing him while he was waiting for his dinner. The mare wasn't insured and the owners wanted me to pay the vet bills plus 2 or 3 months livery as 'it was my fault'. The husband became very aggressive when I refused to pay anything. I was wasn't in the best place at the time as I'd lost my old boy a few weeks previous. They knew that my insurance had paid out which they thought they could take advantage of. I ended up agreeing to pay what would of been their excess if the mare had been insured in order to draw a line under the whole sorry story. Had I been in a better place mentally I would of told them where to go.

Good luck OP. Speaking to your insurance company or BHS legal helpline if your a member would be my recommendation. Then with the knowledge from that phone call speak to the yard owner/manager.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

What exactly is the horse a victim of ?
The dog is a victim of having a dim owner
I just don’t get these people who think ridden horses can’t be trained not to do things like kick .
Or that you can’t train a dog how to behave around horses or stock .
My horses know that kicking when wearing a head collar is not acceptable thats why my horses won’t kick a vet or a farrier who is doing something that hurts them .
Blue arrived not great to handle a bit aggressive tbh but he fat unhappy and in pain from appallingly neglected skin on his legs .
He‘s not now because I worked to train him that world is different here .

I don't think anyone here is saying any of those things though. Of course you can train a ridden horse to not kick.
A horse is still a horse though. Sometimes even with the best training things can go pear shaped. Less likely, but can still happen. If you can completely train any kicking instinct out of a horse, that is...impressive?

You also can train a dog how to behave around horses or stock, again, no one is saying that you can't. In this situation, however, there was no such training. Should there have been? Yep. But there wasn't so the OP and dog owner can only learn from this and move on. They can play the coulda shoulda woulda game, but what's the point?

I still feel like the fault goes to the dog owner in this one though.

 

[Esmae]

Does your insurance give you PL cover? If it does I would tell her to contact your insurance company and let her fight it out with them. I would guess that when they are informed of the yard rules they will tell her to take a hike. You will have done your bit and it may mitigate any bad feeling between you. I would not be paying any of her expenses myself though. The yard has rules that are there to prevent this kind of situation.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I would have given my horse what for if it had kicked a dog though,

Really, what exactly would you have done to your horse to ensure it never dared to behave like a horse again? How do you know the horse (prey animal remember?) was not suddenly startled by another animal around its vulnerable rear end? Of course we can train our horses to a certain degree not to kick out, but they will revert to instinct when put in a vulnerable situation, and to me that is normal horse behaviour - child and dog's minder should be reprimanded here not the poor bloody horse.

This attitude smacks to me of the same old rubbish as expecting dogs never to bite or growl at a child (or anyone come to that) climbing all over them or messing around with them when the dog is eating. Dog labelled a know aggressive biter - dog PTS.

 

[milliepops]

all of my horses know not to kick when there are people about, but that's partly because the people who handle them don't startle them so never trigger the flight/fight kind of response. they are never put in the position where instinct overrides training out of panic. they might be made uncomfortable or have something unpleasant done to them but they still know that's not a reason to kick.

BUT if they were genuinely startled by something else while in a situation where they couldn't remove themselves from the thing that scared them, i would accept that the horse felt kicking out was a reasonable response.

I would not expect a horse to never lift a leg ever again just because I'd taught it not to kick people etc - they might kick another horse in self defense or need to kick a dog that was attacking them etc.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Last week I was up the yard and one of the other owner's had her 2 dogs with her. Our yard does allow dogs on site as long as they are under control & well behaved.

Unfortunately one of them went too close to my gelding's back legs and was kicked and suffered a broken pelvis. Obviously I was mortified.

Fast forward a few days and the owner messaged me on Facebook saying her dog required an operation & subsequent PT (no insurance) and would I be able to pay half "as it was my horse's fault".

I haven't responded yet but I want to say no- it's a lot of money to fork out & my horse was safely tied up & minding his own business until then.

Am I being too tough? Would others agree to pay!?!

No way in hell, not a chance, her dog should have been under control, just like a dog being kicked when out riding. Expensive lesson for the owner, but one she has to cost.

 

[milliepops]

all of my horses know not to kick when there are people about, but that's partly because the people who handle them don't startle them so never trigger the flight/fight kind of response. they are never put in the position where instinct overrides training out of panic. they might be made uncomfortable or have something unpleasant done to them but they still know that's not a reason to kick.

BUT if they were genuinely startled by something else while in a situation where they couldn't remove themselves from the thing that scared them, i would accept that the horse felt kicking out was a reasonable response.

I would not expect a horse to never lift a leg ever again just because I'd taught it not to kick people etc - they might kick another horse in self defense or need to kick a dog that was attacking them etc.

FWIW i do have one I would describe as a kicker, as the front end is not safe if she's allowed to greet other horses (i.e. not a panic situation) so she is managed accordingly. she had a bit of a warped socialisation when younger so while she's safe as houses with people, that's a predictable response in horse company which I can't train out.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I would have given my horse what for if it had kicked a dog though, that is unacceptable (unless dog was acting aggressively towards horse and you have not said it was) Kicking is an absolute no no, that could have been some dumb toddler walking too close!

Now you have a known kicker you do have a responsibility to ensure you don't put your horse in that situation again because now you do have a duty of care simply by knowing your horse has kicked!

Seriously???


Sheesh My late mare kicked 2 dogs, first dog was off lead, owner chat - walking paying no attention to the dog, dog ran back down path and barking round my horses feet, next minute *POW* dog was doing summersaults. Second time, owner warned horse will kick, owner did nothing to get dog back and the same thing. I would NEVER EVER tell my horses off for lashing out or kicking a dog., its a predator in horses eyes. I always shout out, * get your dog or it will get kicked* as a warning.

A dog is a predator - a child is a human, horses would not see them in the same way. I would not teach my horse not to kick out at a dog barking and snapping at their heals, it would not take much for a dog to rip a vein or artery in a horse.

 

[SEL]

My livery yard is terrible for letting dogs run around the place. It was OK when we first went there - just the 2 farm dogs - but then more liveries got dogs, or turned up and saw others with their dogs so decided they could bring a dog along too. The level of training is 'interesting'.

My horses are great with dogs. The Appy has had a Jack Russell hanging off my schooling whip while I was on board and has been careered into by a mad pointer chasing a fly - but I still really hate seeing the dogs lose around their legs. I've got quite stroppy with owners when the farrier is around because my gelding is tricky to trim due to his arthritis and the last thing anyone needs is a nearby dog pestering for hoof offcuts. If a draft horse puts a hoof down suddenly on a dog then only one of them is going to get injured.

I wouldn't dream of contributing to a dog's vet bill in that situation but I would feel awful if one of them got injured and I'm sure it would lead to a pretty awful atmosphere on a small yard.

 

[SEL]

FWIW i do have one I would describe as a kicker, as the front end is not safe if she's allowed to greet other horses (i.e. not a panic situation) so she is managed accordingly. she had a bit of a warped socialisation when younger so while she's safe as houses with people, that's a predictable response in horse company which I can't train out.

Is that a front leg strike out? My big mare does that. I double fence if there's ever a newby in a next door field until the worst of the dirty looks and squealing is over. I've been caught a couple of times too.

 

[milliepops]

Is that a front leg strike out? My big mare does that. I double fence if there's ever a newby in a next door field until the worst of the dirty looks and squealing is over. I've been caught a couple of times too.

yeah. quick as a flash. I was nearly in the way on one occasion and could have lost my kneecap. she bloodied the other horse's nose that's the first and last time she ever struck and made contact with anything under my watch but she will strike at the stable door if anyone lets their horse approach her box and has to be double fenced from anyone else's horses in the field.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

One of the reasons we will not allow dogs on the yard.

• dog mess
• barking
• ripping peoples things or running off with them
• chasing horses in fields, causing injury to horses or breaks in fencing
• dogs cocking leg/ peeing on hay or equipment
• some owners not liking dogs
• allergies to dogs
• scaring /attacking yard cats
• dogs scaring children on the yard
• dogs running out the gate and cause accidents
• My home I don't want to responsible for someone's dog
• dogs not allowing tack to be taken out tack room (and yes this happened in one yard dog would growl at you and snarl when you went into tack room to get your tack.)

 

[Antw23uk]

I always forgot what a vast variety of horsey people we have on this forum, its great to hear so many views and opinions but the lynch mob are never far behind! I wont be sniping at the rather alarming comments following mine. Personally I've found it insightful so many people dont accept dogs around horses and that its acceptable for a horse to be tied up on the yard and allowed to kick randomly if it chooses. I've been around horses my whole life and dogs on yards have always been a thing, perhaps I'm old fashioned. Sadly overtime owners have got dumber for equine and canine ownership which is why im so thankful i have my own place away from people.

 

[splashgirl45]

i think the horse kicked once at a dog around its hind end, hardly kicking randomly. the dogs owner was the one at fault not the horse or his owner...it must be nice to be so perfect!!!!!!!..

 

[Antw23uk]

i think the horse kicked once at a dog around its hind end, hardly kicking randomly. the dogs owner was the one at fault not the horse or his owner...it must be nice to be so perfect!!!!!!!..

LOL!

 

[Pippin and Poppy]

We all know a horse is a prey animal and a dog is a predator - so any dog could be seen as a threat. Horses can be acclimatized to dogs but might still default to a defensive position and kick.
I think too many risks are taken on livery yards with children and dogs. The safety of children and dogs is the ultimately the responsibly of the parents/owners, but livery yards have a responsibility (duty of care) to provide an environment where the nature of horses is properly taken into consideration.
I will never forget at clinic signing to acknowledge that working with horses will at some point result in an accident - not 'if' - but 'when and how badly'... He is a farrier. My current young farrier says he now rides motor bikes as they are 'safer than horses'.
All horses and ponies are potential kickers.
Absolutely 'no' - the OP should not pay towards the vet fees.

 

[paddy555]

that its acceptable for a horse to be tied up on the yard and allowed to kick randomly if it chooses. I've been around horses my whole life and dogs on yards have always been a thing, perhaps I'm old fashioned.

horse being held on a headcollar by the owner (ie me) in a public place so very similar situation to a yard.

Staffie comes up behind horse uninvited (owner standing by watching) dog the sinks his teeth into horse's hind leg and hangs on. Horse tries unsuccessfully to kick dog off. Finally, managing to avoid the kicking feet, people manage to prise the dog off.

I failed to reprimand horse for such disgraceful behaviour. Certainly not acceptable for him to kick a dog in public. How hard should I have belted him?

In actual fact I belted the owner (verbally) very hard. Very sadly the horse didn't manage to kill the bliddy dog.

 

[Equine_Dream]

Ah I'm sorry I'm one of those dumb owners that accepts my horses are animals with natural behaviours, and while I do my utmost to train and encourage wanted behaviour, I accept horses have instincts and minds all of their own, and will sometimes react out of instinct. How "dumb" of me ?

 

[Antw23uk]

horse being held on a headcollar by the owner (ie me) in a public place so very similar situation to a yard.

Staffie comes up behind horse uninvited (owner standing by watching) dog the sinks his teeth into horse's hind leg and hangs on. Horse tries unsuccessfully to kick dog off. Finally, managing to avoid the kicking feet, people manage to prise the dog off.

I failed to reprimand horse for such disgraceful behaviour. Certainly not acceptable for him to kick a dog in public. How hard should I have belted him?

In actual fact I belted the owner (verbally) very hard. Very sadly the horse didn't manage to kill the bliddy dog.

That's really bad, sorry to hear that. We were out hacking the other day and the owners of an English Setter kind of gave up trying to call it back but it seemed quiet enough as it came towards us but i didnt feel comfortable with it walking between my friend and I, it was too quiet if you know what i mean?
After it had passed us it came back on itself to have a go at the horses back legs!! The owners got one hell of a reprimand as well. Both horses are hunters, they dont kick dogs but i wouldnt have blamed them! (I also wouldnt have allowed it, they are trained correctly not to react to dogs being behind them running around and acting unpredictable)

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I always forgot what a vast variety of horsey people we have on this forum, its great to hear so many views and opinions but the lynch mob are never far behind!

Firstly please be aware I march to the beat of my own drum, on here and elsewhere, my opinions are my own and not part of some 'lynch mob' as you describe it. The fact that some others might have agreed with my opinion (unusual I grant you that, but occasionally it does happen, even on here) has no influence on what I might think and what I might write.

Both horses are hunters, they dont kick dogs but i wouldnt have blamed them! (I also wouldnt have allowed it, they are trained correctly not to react to dogs being behind them running around and acting unpredictable)

Genuine question here - please explain exactly how you have them so highly trained that they would no longer revert to their natural protective instincts even when being attacked by dogs? If they are tied up and cannot use their flight instinct how would you expect them to respond to said dog or dogs unwanted attention. When they do try to revert to this shameful behaviour of kicking out to protect their most vulnerable body part, how exactly do you 'not allow it' and correct them. I did ask you if you would like to explain what 'giving them what for' entails but you did not see fit to answer?