Would you put a 15hh maiden......

L

Lynne21

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 January 2007
Messages
229
Visit site
Would you put a 15hh maiden, mature 3yo to an experienced 16.2hh stallion?

I have a big built, strong 3yo filly and have talked to the stallion owner about putting her to his stallion as mentioned. He thinks that I should get it confirmed by my vet first (which I would do), but after being to several breeding seminars, he also thinks it would be fine. Apparently, horses are the only mammals that can determine their own gestation period and as soon as the baby is big enough, they give birth. So, in theory then, you could put any size to any size without any more problems than similar size to similar size(?).

Obviously, I know that as a well built, mature 3yo, my filly is safe to put in foal - I just wondered what your thoughts on the subject would be. Chances are I am going to wait until next year but thought it might make for a 'healthy discussion'!

Any thoughts, experiences (good and bad)??
 
I seem to remember them doing experiments on implanting shires into shetlands or similar a few years back, and the mare dictated the outcome of the foal.
From what I recall the foals were born absolutely normally with no problems.
I would say your filly would be fine provided she isn't a flimsy type , the only problems we ever had were when people brought a 14 hh mare to our 16. 1 hh chunky stallion. Being inexperienced we agreed to cover her and he was just too big and well built (ahem) to do it without causing a small tear internally. She caught nevertheless.
He was also too heavy on her back we realised once he got going. The resulting foal was a lovely 15.2 hh who is still with it's owner today, but we imposed a limit after that of 15 hh..
Most of our knowledge we learned by doing stuff the wrong way, there were some hysterical moments and some damned dangerous ones too I'm afraid.
grin.gif
 
Thank you for your comment HH, in a nutshell, the experimental implanting with positive results is what the stallion owner relayed to me - do you think it is a bit much for a first foal though? The filly is a real 'lump' despite being 3/4 TB 1/4 Arab and is not short in the back so would assume she has room in there.
 
One of our girls was covered when she was 3. She was about 15/15.1hh the stallion was 16.2hh. No problems, foal was a lovely filly, about 15.3/16hh.
 
[ QUOTE ]
- do you think it is a bit much for a first foal though? The filly is a real 'lump' despite being 3/4 TB 1/4 Arab and is not short in the back so would assume she has room in there.

[/ QUOTE ]


But has she got child bearing hips as well?!

Seriously, you wouldn't want to put a narrow pelvised mare of that size to a stallion that was that much bigger than herself but by the way you are talking of her, she isn't a narrow type and should have no more problems than if you used a same sized stallion - if that makes sense!
 
But has she got child bearing hips as well?!

Oh yes! And some! Wish I knew how to get piccies up (total numpty when it comes to it).
crazy.gif


Hmmmm! Am thinking now - please keep comments coming, anyone had it go 'wrong'?
 
Yes, learn how to, you can post pics of your lot then!

Well we put Tino on a 13.2hh visiting NF mare, we had to stand her on a slope to do the deed. She'd had foals by other tall warmbloods in the past so it is done.

The horse is also the only animal who can hold on to the foal for x amount of time and it won't grow any bigger in the womb.
 
Yes you could. I bred my 12.2hh mare to my 15hh stallion - perfect pregnancy and then the perfect birth.

The foal grows internally to the size that the mare can accommodate which is why there are rarely any problems; it is only once the foal is out of the mare that the foal will then grow to its predetermined size.

When I was researching allowing my little mare to be bred by my guy, everything I came up with was that if there had turned out to be problems, that these problems were likely to occur regardless of the stallion used......most foal without event, just like in any pregnancy.
smile.gif
 
My two 13.2 NFs are in-foal to a 16hh WB, but it was by AI. But i would be fine with a 15hh going to a 16.2.

Also like others have said the foal will only grow to the size of the mare in the uterus.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I seem to remember them doing experiments on implanting shires into shetlands or similar a few years back, and the mare dictated the outcome of the foal.
From what I recall the foals were born absolutely normally with no problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Up until last week this would have been my exact answer to the OP, now I would tell everyone to be abit more cautious and definitely get a vets opinion before using a bigger stallion on a smaller mare and to be wary of the size difference. I think alot of the time the outsome will be okay but you do have to consider the risks, someone as already mentioned the covering side of things but this is what happened to me last week (the short version):

My pony mare went down to foal (he was her 5th foal and the 4th to the same stallion, so not a maiden), she is 12.2h and the stallion was 14.2h, as she is passing the shoulders, she became paralysed behind, the foal started to gasp for breath, she couldn't push him out so we started pulling, the whole time the foal is gasping for breath because his rib cage is still to be pulled out, it takes two strong people to pull this foal out the mare by the time he's out, he is dead (despite all efforts to resusitate him - I even did mouth to nose on him), meanwhile the mare can not stand and is falling all over the stable, she eventually is able to stand but pecarious and unstable to lick the dead foal. The vet arrives his conclusion, the foal was too big for the mare and she bruised her nerves passing the shoulders (very common in cows apparently), although he expects the mare to make a full recovery in time, he said this is the risk of putting bigger stallions over smaller mares, you aren't guarantee the mare will dictate the size of the foal.

I am not usually a gloom and doom person but I erge people to think more of possible problems before they start as it was the most heartbreaking experience.
 
Sorry to hear about the foal
frown.gif


But if she'd had three healthy foals by the same stallion surely that is just unlucky and a bit of a freak accident?
 
So sorry to hear about your foal, hopefully it is a 'one in a million' chance. My other mare is a 14.2hh TB x pony and is built like the proverbial outhouse
blush.gif
, she has just been scanned in foal to a 16.2hh stallion tho' she is a 9yo and this will be her 5th foal. She has had no problems in the past, this is the second time she has been to Abraham, she has also had foals by Foxcourt Fabelhaft (16.2hh), Trifolio (??hh but big!) and other big stallions with her breeder. So far, no problems - not even torn thankfully or I would have gone smaller, though I did leave her empty last year as she had had 2 big colts in succession so I thought she needed a 'time out'.
 
Does anyone think that the extra 12 months makes a difference? (ie waiting until 4 rather than putting her in foal as a 3yo). As I said this filly is rather mature but you never know what another 12 months is going to bring.

I think I have decided to leave her 'till next year anyway but peoples opinions / experiences are eagerly sought and very interesting. Thank you!
 
I've not done it myself although I would have done this year with Dotty. As it is, her new owner decided to put her in foal this year to give her another year to slowly mature without the temptation of doing something with her too early!
I know a lot of stud vets are quite happy for 3 year olds to be put in foal for the very same reason, also, if they are biggish built horses, I think if they have a foal early, it helps (or is meant to!) when they are put in foal again either during or at the end of their careers.
 
She looks lovely and mature. I think you have to take every mare case by case, I go with my feelings as well, I was going to put 3 x 3yo infoal this year but I decided only to try with one (the biggest by far), I decided although the other 2 were well grown and I think mature enough I had some nagging doubts and decided to leave it for this year. I am sure your mare will be fine to the bigger stallion, I just want people to be a little more cautious on their decision making, as I was very the foals size in the uterus is determined by the mare, which I am sure isthe case but just not 100% of the time as I found with a crushing blow last week and it was a pretty big foal. I have a 16.1 mare, she has had at least 10 foals for the last 3 foals she has been covered by my 16.3 stallion and every year the foals are getting bigger, I honestly don't know how she past this years foal out its sucha lump of a foal, I was planning to put her back to him again as it is sucha great cross but I got something telling me not to, so i've had a jiggle and she is now going to my young stallion thats smaller than her and one of his mares is going to the 16.3.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks its been one of those years i'm afraid!
The vets exact words when I said exactly the same thing - 'she had been lucky with the previous ones'.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to start a quarrel but I don't have very high opinions of vets so I wouldn't take their word as gospel!

Will you cover the mare in a year or so?
 
Actually apparently the younger the better, they are not so 'tight' inside, more elasticity. Same goes for dogs.

Alot of the Arab people and alot of big warmblood/sport horse studs start them as 2y.o's.
 
I had my vet check out my 3yr old 14.1 mare as suitability - it's not only the maturity but the pelvic breadth and the 'foal room'

as said - the mare does dictate the size of the foal - and also foaling date - if the foal is getting bigger they may well choose to foal sooner rather than later

my mare foal successfully, with no problems - to Derek who is 16.3 - usuall thing of "go and get a cuppa and find a foal when you get back"

only thing was that it got funnier sooner - watching this tall foal trying to drink from mum
 
It is quiet common to breed from 3yr olds that gives them time to mature & it is also thought balances out the hormones. She will still grow in that time, so I dont see an issue.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[I don't mean to start a quarrel but I don't have very high opinions of vets so I wouldn't take their word as gospel

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a very high opinion of many vets myself (especially jumped up little twats just out of vet college! - long story!), so when I get a good one I stick with them, as for listening or not to what my vet said, I will take his word for it, he is one of the best repro vets in this country and he didn't tell me that, its what i've been told by several other people.
I'm not saying no don't put bigger stallions over smaller mares, i'm just saying that be more cautious when deciding to do so, take into account your mares build etc etc, yes the mare is suppose to dictate the size of the foal but its not always cut and dried and isn't 100% guaranteed to work out that way, I certainly will be more cautious in future.
No I won't be covering her again, I only have a 14.2 stallion here that I can use on her and he's bigger built than my other 14.2 stallion was. Maybe if a nice 13.2 stallion comes along and even then I probably won't because I don't want to breed anything under 13.2 anyway, and lets face it their isn't many JA stallions about to choose from. She doesn't owe me anything anyway, she already has 2 offspring out jumping, her 2 year old thinks nothing of hopping 1.20 and the yearling is heading the same way, she has nothing left to prove she has a home for life, being a glorified lawn mower.
 
personally i wouldnt want to put a mare to anything bigger than 1hand higher.esp if the stallion was more chunky and the mare was slight.
for 2nd foals i would go for upto 2h higher if she had carried the first one ok.

my reasoning is first time foalers esp can get into more difficulty than experienced mares.

also a very big foal will drag the mare down in condition when she tries to feed it for 6months and you could end up having to wean early
(more of an issue with pony/smallTB mares and big chunky sires)

mares will only stretch to a certain size inside-this can also increase the risk of larger foals being very crumpled up at birth and you may have to restrict the exercise until the legs strenghten.
and there will always be the foals that end up being very hard to birth due to the comparitive size of mums pelvis and foals shoulders.

im sure lots/majority of mares have foaled fine with sires larger than1hand heigher.

but i didnt want to increase the risk to my mare anymore than it was already.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top