Wow! Things are VERY different in the US!

[Leo Walker]

I've somehow knackered my hip on top of all my other issues so I've had a couple of days off work and have been bored silly! So I wandered over to COTH and read this:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/s...-seems-like-a-crappy-situation-Gimme-opinions

I found it ridiculously interesting even though I dont get it at all :lol: Things are clearly so very different in the US! I cant imagine leasing a horse and just turning up to ride, while I pay mega bucks for things like braiding and day care. I'm not casting aspersions on their system, more amazed by the huge differences!

 

[willowdoodle]

Things are definitely very different in the US! Posted a picture of a browband i made on a facebook group earlier, it was very clearly a browband, and someone (american) said "no offence, but what is it? A wither strap?"
Also just have to mention-a photo i took may be on the chronicle of the horse and the magazine too soon!

 

[Theocat]

Wow! A completely different world. The trainer sounds like a piece of work...

 

[Kylara]

Well that sounds like a whole load of taking advantage and pocket padding!

I know a couple of people who lease out dressage ponies to kids. They keep pony and do all the care (basically full livery) and the kid comes for lessons and training and then takes out to shows. They pay for the shows and lessons etc, but not for rides (if that makes sense?) and they pay a set fee for leasing the pony for x amount of time (6 months to a year). These ponies are highly trained and worth a lot of money so cheaper to lease for 6 months and go out to comps and do well without the worry about buying a horse and with all of the help from the owner in classes to enter etc. Good way for kids to do well on the sorts of ponies that they couldn't afford to buy or would outgrow quickly. That's the only lease I know of that happens over here though!

It seems very odd. I never understand the US rated shows and I can never understand how people can't plait there own horses... It really does boggle!

In regards to prize money though that seems very off on the thread! The person paying for the horse should get it right? Even in the UK? But you pay your rider (if not the owner) to ride yes? Or does it get split between owner and rider? I've never competed at a level where the money was more than covered the cost of actually getting to the show! Maybe one day I'll have to quibble with an owner about who gets what part of a 10k prize fund! Haha

 

[Vodkagirly]

Sounds like an even more expensive hobby across there. It sounds like the leasing set up is very common.

 

[Pigeon]

'Hunters' in the US is mega-bucks. I have a friend who used to do it and leasing is the norm, and your trainer usually comes to shows with you and supervises you pretty much every time you ride.

 

[spacefaer]

I've just read the whole thread - and I want to know what happened?! Did she get any money back? Did she change trainers? What happened??

 

[ElleSkywalker]

I lived and worked in the US with horses for a while, the owners would show up, get placed on thier perfectly clean already tacked up pony, have a lesson/go hunting, get off, hand over reins and go home. They didn't tack up, groom, certainly never mucked out or have any real contact with thier horses appart from riding, this went for kids as well. Very odd but what they are used to.

 

[atropa]

Yes, I find the American showing culture absolutely baffling and it sounds like they spend a FORTUNE! From what I've read, DIY livery isn't even an option in some barns...daycare anyone?

 

[Kylara]

Maybe we should go over on holiday for the summer and get paid to plait up a bunch of horses! Hahaha. I wonder how much they get paid to do it? From the comments it seems like enough to complain about!

Over here I think you get the odd full livery client who turns up to ride and wants everything ready to go, so horse is turned out for them and then generally help untack I think, but probably the odd super busy person who leaves asap!

It makes me think more like how I roll when I freelance ride/school for people. I ask for horse to be ready to go so that they get the full 30 or 60 minutes and then hand them back with a pat and go to my next client. I try to schedule in enough time to help untack though as it's a nice time to be with horse telling them how fabulous they were! I do have the odd client where I tack pony up, school, tack other pony up and then untack, but they asked nicely and it gets included in my hour (so pony only has 30 minutes ridden, but they get charged for the hour it takes me to bring in, groom, tack up, ride, untack, groom, turnout etc).

Seems weird not to do your own horse though. Saying that I would love to be able to afford a full time groom who tacks up the horses ready for me so I can hop off one and onto the other!


ETA: I know what it reminds me of: POLO. See loads of turn up, get on, get off, go home people out at polo.

 

[Archangel]

I'm relocating and becoming a braider - mane and tail = £55. Wow.

 

[Kylara]

£55! Oh my goodness! But. Wow.

 

[sweet lemon]

Braiding can be pretty lucrative, if you're good and fast. With North America hunter plaits you're looking at on average 30-40 perfect, tiny, uniform plaits, done with yarn or waxed thread that must not come out until the end of the day. A pro braider can do them so quickly their hands are a blur, but a mere mortal would probably take at least an hour and a half to get them right. And no one does it the night before, so with warm-ups at big shows around 6-7am (keeping in mind, they're often too far away to travel in the morning)...why wouldn't you hire a braider if you can??

While the situation on the COTH thread is talking about a certain level of competition and a certain kind of competitor (not everyone is like this, but it's sadly shifted drastically in that direction over the last decade), DIY livery is very rare in North America. For one thing, there's the geographical scale. Beyond that, though, stable managers take more responsibility for horses' condition and how well kept their yards are. They do the primary care of all the horses, so that they're all reliably being fed and cared for properly and all the horses are part of a daily routine, no matter what comes up in the lives of the owners. The average livery there includes feeding, haying/watering, mucking out/bedding, and turnout/catching in as standard. Things like grooming, rugging, booting etc. often comes at an extra price, and then like here there are training packages including exercise, show prep and so on.

ETA: That trainer is a monster. But North American hunters have become more and more about lining pockets (and pricing out those who can't play that game). I can remember showing there as a kid and looking around thinking, 'that trainer's job is about telling them how to spend their money, not how to ride'.

 

[Kylara]

Hang on so there are different types of plaits?

Is it just a case os more plaits or less plaits? Or are there fancy types of plaits. It's not hard to make sure they don't come out, especially when using waxed thread.

Why don't people plait up before they go and then leave them in? It's not so hard

 

[sweet lemon]

Hang on so there are different types of plaits?
Why don't people plait up before they go and then leave them in? It's not so hard

Because if the horse tries to rub any out, they often rip out that chunk of mane! Believe me.

Though by the end of the show season, you might not have any mane left to plait, so maybe killing two birds with one stone?

 

[sasquatch]

so the lease agreement is basically someone pays all the fees to show/ride/produce a horse for someone else?
wow. 5K on keeping a horse in a month, I think I barely pay 5K a year. This is madness.

I don't understand the American system, at all. I have heard stories of people who essentially pay the bills each month for a trainer to ride/show/win/care for their horse free of charge without questioning it, or questioning why their trainer recommended they buy a horse the trainer now seems to spend most of the time riding and showing.
Similarly, I don't understand how it seems to be that in some show circuits, and some of the riders I have met and spoken too, there is a real sense that horses are disposable. Once they reach a certain age/stop winning/trainer says they don't like they are just passed on to someone else and nearly treated like machines only there to win prizes. I don't understand why there is also the need to pay a bill for meds - surely if you have to drug a horse to win it isn't very well trained.
I've also noticed, in a lot of the riders of a certain age and from certain showing circuits, they really seem to look down on other riders who don't jump as high/have as many wins/spend as much money etc as they do. It's something I have experienced when I was younger, with being patronised and told various things about my riding/horse not being good/ruining the horse/I should stop riding etc. because I don't think they understood that there are different ways to be taught to ride, and that their heavily stylised way of riding is one not taught internationally as it is not actually very effective! I was about 14/15 at the time and had just bought my cob, I also don't think they knew what a cob was to be fair!

I don't want to criticise all US riders, and all riders in a few US show circuits, I have also met some really lovely people who show in a huge range of circuits, some at quite high level, and don't have the same attitude as some of the others I've met. Certainly, there are some UK set ups/riders where people pay similar amounts of money and will turn up and just ride in lessons and for shows and will replace a horse without a second thought, but I think the horse culture is totally totally different in the UK and Ireland.

On a similar note, my cousin in South Africa rides and part-leases a horse, and the staff at her stables do all the hard work! Very similar to some of the US set ups, from what it sounds, although I think she has more control over the horse she part-leases than some of the US ones seem to have!

 

[MissTyc]

Because if the horse tries to rub any out, they often rip out that chunk of mane! Believe me.

Though by the end of the show season, you might not have any mane left to plait, so maybe killing two birds with one stone?

That's me out of the braiding business then. 10 golf balls and I'm good to go

 

[Equi]

Theres a lady on my yard and every sentence starts with "in america..."

She generally talks sense and no bullshit but i get a bit fed up of being compared to another country..lol

 

[Molly'sMama]

Also in America our bogstandard cobs go for literally thousands of dollars. I told her about my cob literally being a few hundred quid and she said the lowest she'd ever seen for like, $6000. Mostly between $10k-$20k. for a cob!!

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Right! That's it! I'm moving to America to track ride and braid! Better weather too! Lol

 

[skint1]

I grew up in a part of the US where land became very expensive over the course of my childhood, subsequently horses were a seriously expensive business even back in the 80s, certainly out of reach for most normal people in my area. There were very few informal places to take lessons or go for hacks. There were a lot of hunter barns as I recall. I was absolutely delighted when I moved here (to Wilts) there were horses everywhere and that really is such a gift

To broaden the discussion, I can foresee UK equestrian life evolving this way as the pressure on our land increases and society generally becomes more litigious which impacts on the way riding schools run, what you get is riders who can ride but never spend time with horses otherwise...

 

[spacefaer]

I grew up in a part of the US where land became very expensive over the course of my childhood, subsequently horses were a seriously expensive business even back in the 80s, certainly out of reach for most normal people in my area. There were very few informal places to take lessons or go for hacks. There were a lot of hunter barns as I recall. I was absolutely delighted when I moved here (to Wilts) there were horses everywhere and that really is such a gift

To broaden the discussion, I can foresee UK equestrian life evolving this way as the pressure on our land increases and society generally becomes more litigious which impacts on the way riding schools run, what you get is riders who can ride but never spend time with horses otherwise...

I can't see it happening to the same extent as we don't have the number of people with enough money to do this - or the culture either. In a country with little or no DIY, there is obviously a natural progression to an equine service industry.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Right! That's it! I'm moving to America to track ride and braid! Better weather too! Lol

yeah, trench foot from constantly hosing horses and it being so hot you can't bear to wear leather boots and end up riding in shorts, chaps and trainers.

 

[spookypony]

Would be fun for Firewell to come on this thread and comment, as she moved to the US a few years ago and took her TB with her (for whom I think she was offered an insane amount of $$, IIRC! ). I lived in the US briefly after living in Canada for a long time, and only saw the Hunters thing very peripherally, but found it very very odd indeed after my experiences in Canada. Where I grew up, there were essentially three parallel horsey cultures: the Western people (whom we rarely saw, so who knows what they were up to), the English/Hunter/Jumper people (I think they were the ones into Hunters, as well as actual hunting), and the German people (dressage, natch! ). The English and German (literally German/Austrian by extraction) overlapped to a certain extent. I grew up among the German lot, but didn't realise until much later that there were fundamental differences to the Hunter/Jumper lot: we just distinguished among English and Western. The style in which I was taught, I realise now, would be in the direction of what gets called Classical, which I suppose isn't too odd coming from an ex-SRS Austrian instructor. The ponies I shared as a teenager were on what would be called part or full livery here, with rates that were roughly comparable. I did show in two affiliated dressage shows towards the end of my riding school time, on a school horse, and I was definitely expected to do my own plaiting!

 

[Equi]

Miniatures also go for ridiculous money. I know of one stallion who was like 100k

 

[Kylara]

Maybe that's what we should be doing with all these cheap cobs. Break them, bring them on a bit and export them for much $$$$
hahaha

It just seems odd about the braiding. Do people not have neck protectors? We do the driving ponies the night before, whack a neck protector on and they will stay in for days (tend to take them out after one day, but it takes longer than it does to plait them!). Or you could buy fakes and just stitch them in a friend of mine did that last year for dressage when part of mane was gone after a field injury.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Miniatures also go for ridiculous money. I know of one stallion who was like 100k

My mother won one in a raffle. A super rare silver colt foal. Obviously we weren't going to bring him over to the UK so he was gelded and given to Personal Ponies. There was some ruckus about that with people offering stupid money for him along with plans to steal him before he could be gilded etc. All over a colt foal. He is now a happy, gelded promotional pony. Insane. The raffle was on mare stare where people were literally buying thousand of dollars worth of tickets in the hope of winning him. My mum bought 1 ticket to support that's all lol! He was named Prince Of Theives which really suited under the circumstances.

 

[skint1]

I can't see it happening to the same extent as we don't have the number of people with enough money to do this - or the culture either. In a country with little or no DIY, there is obviously a natural progression to an equine service industry.

Hopefully you're right.

 

[Molly'sMama]

Hunter braids are tiny and very brittle, easily rubbed out. Maybe you could do the night before but it'd depend on the horse i think, how much you trusted it.

 

[Kylara]

But why not just pop a hood on top and then a mane protector on top of that? No way horse could get them out

I had one who would rub plaits out with a hind foot and couldn't wear a hood. I gave up threading them and would rush them just before my class so he wouldn't have a chance to get them out. Once we left the dressage arena, I stopped to chat with a friend and he got his foot up and got them out. Lucky fo rme we were on to SJ by then and I vowed to only band them in from then on!