Wow this looks cruel...

[Sheri]

Whilst searching for a collar to stop my dogs from pulling (not naughty just v hyper and strong!) I came across this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Prong-Choker-...pplies_Dogs&hash=item19bc42899c#ht_4084wt_911

I've never seen one before but wow it looks cruel and painful!!

I know there are a lot of serious dog people on here so I thought I'd ask you guys is it cruel or not?

I have no intention of getting one for my babies I'm just curious!!

 

[CorvusCorax]

The grey dog to the left and closest to you in the middle of my sig is wearing one in both pics, without the plastic covers.

Used properly they are an effective tool. Wouldn't use it to stop pulling though, quite a lazy use for it.

 

[soloabe]

Just about as cruel as any collar thats not used correctly.
I've used one in an extreme situation. I would rather use a prong collar to stop a dog pulling than have a dog pulling constantly on a nylon collar.

 

[kirstyhen]

Like anything, cruel in the wrong hands.
I would never use one without the correct supervision, but that's not to say I would never use one. Although the breeds of dogs I tend to have a small and correctable without going this far; a bigger, stronger breed may need it.

 

[RubysGold]

Ergh!
Now I HATE choke chains, but one with prongs?!?!
I see absolutely no point in them
The people I've seen with dogs in them round here, have uncontrollable (need a bit of training) dogs that have learnt to pull and ignore the choke anyway. So why bother!

I'll stick to teaching my dogs how to walk nicely/behave, without the use of things like that.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Here's a thread I made to explain their correct use.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=341847

I'm really happy for anyone with an easy dog who has never needed to use one and ideally I would never have to have used one either, but I did so under the guidance of three different trainers and as said on the linked thread, it helped save his life.

 

[stargirl88]

Have no desire to use one at all to be honest..

 

[CAYLA]

I agree with the others, used correctly it's can be a life saving aid, to both the dog in training and anything at risk from the dog in training
Im not sure I would reccomend one be used on a saluki.
Some dogs have immense strength and determination and very high pain threshold, I never compare them to humans which is maybe why some are so shocked at these things, I think Cesar Milan uses them or did, in the hands of a responsibly person I have no issues.

 

[kirstyhen]

Ergh!
Now I HATE choke chains, but one with prongs?!?!
I see absolutely no point in them
The people I've seen with dogs in them round here, have uncontrollable (need a bit of training) dogs that have learnt to pull and ignore the choke anyway. So why bother!

I'll stick to teaching my dogs how to walk nicely/behave, without the use of things like that.

So because I walk my dog in a slip lead (rope choke), I haven't trained him properly?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Oh and by the way, yes, I have worn it around my own neck and checked myself

Plus, unlike a choke, they can only close a certain distance.

 

[kirstyhen]

Oh and by the way, yes, I have worn it around my own neck and checked myself

I'm not sure this is the thread for this kind of revelation CC

 

[numptynoelle]

The first time I saw one, I'll admit I was

BUT luckily it was in the waiting room at the vet's so I got a proper explanation/demonstration (on a dummy) from my vet. I wouldn't use one without proper training and supervision but I've got no problems with responsible knowledgeable people using them if they need to.

 

[Kellys Heroes]

Also known as "bite collars" - mimicks the action of another dog's bite around the neck to stop unwanted behaviour.
In my opinion, I have never and won't ever use one - we have been as far as to try static shock collars with our GSDs but drew the line at those...but that's just my opinion. The idea isn't to hurt the dog, just to redirect its attention with a short interruption to the undesired behaviour - an interruption which would be used by a pack member superior to the dog in question (behaviour as above)

However...when placed in the right hands and used by experienced owners and trainers who know what they're doing and when to do it I don't see a problem - I have seen many a dog with behavioural problems being trained in them and the results are always effective - WITH a knowledgeable handler

What I can't tolerate is watching young handlers dragging their slightly excitable canines along in a bite collar, ragging at their necks every time they pull slightly ahead....makes me boil

 

[CorvusCorax]

I KNEW someone was going to say that

Right, for the record, I took it off him because he didn't need it on and I had no pockets so I attached it around my own neck, was walking along and thought 'right then, let's see what all the fuss is about'. Wasn't half as bad as I was expecting and I don't even have two layers of hair on my neck. Honest

 

[NicoleS_007]

OP have you tryed using a headcollar? my dog used to drag me round but after using this for a couple of weeks she stopped pulling and is back on a normal collar just an idea

 

[Sheri]

Thanks guys I knew you'd help me out!!

Whilst reading the link'd thread I noticed you said they are not used for pullers, could I ask why they are used?

PS can anyone recommend a type of lead/ harness/ collar to stop my big collie x from pulling? He's not naughty just really excitable but strong! He was a rescue that I presume was never taught to walk properly on a lead. I've tried all the tricks in the book stopping, walking backwards nothing seems to work

 

[CAYLA]

Ergh!
Now I HATE choke chains, but one with prongs?!?!
I see absolutely no point in them
The people I've seen with dogs in them round here, have uncontrollable (need a bit of training) dogs that have learnt to pull and ignore the choke anyway. So why bother!

I'll stick to teaching my dogs how to walk nicely/behave, without the use of things like that.

Thts totally different RG, you are talking about basically an owner incapable of using and tool to train their dog, because they are effectivly a tool themselves

It's also a little odd to say dogs that have learned to pull can never be corrected via a check chain, I have managed 100' s of times over and never had to use it more than a handful of times.

Also maybe think past pet dog that very easy to train and open your mind a little to say, unsocialised rotti x mastiff with a taste for killing any dog in sight, fresh from the pound with no interest in tit bits.

As suggested they are not for pulling, they are for correction.

 

[CAYLA]

Thanks guys I knew you'd help me out!!

Whilst reading the link'd thread I noticed you said they are not used for pullers, could I ask why they are used?

PS can anyone recommend a type of lead/ harness/ collar to stop my big collie x from pulling? He's not naughty just really excitable but strong! He was a rescue that I presume was never taught to walk properly on a lead. I've tried all the tricks in the book stopping, walking backwards nothing seems to work

Try googling halti.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Pinch collars are used for fixation and associated dangerous behaviour.
You see a lot of working dogs in them too, for various reasons. I know a few people who use them and their dog's tails never stop wagging.

Main reasons for pulling -
He isn't getting enough exercise
Dogs move faster on four legs than humans on two - he wants to get somewhere quicker than you can take him
He is pulling against an inhibitive force (the lead) - vicious cycle

You can use a tool (Canny collar, Halti, Gencon headcollars - if he is a large or weight pulling breed harnesses can be useless although I have heard good things about the Mentuki), you can stop, walk backwards etc, you can swim him or jog him or run him off a bike or you can train him to focus on you and realise that spending time beside you, on a loose lead, equals food, a ball, praise etc.
If he is constantly straining against the lead, if he knows no difference between a tight line and a slack one, you will never win.

What breed is he, and what are you using now?

 

[MurphysMinder]

Have just come in from a very pleasant walk with a friend and her GSD. A couple of years ago he was a complete liability but correct use of the prong collar, not to stop pulling but to deal with dog aggression, has turned him into a different dog. My friend is a very experienced handler and this dog is the second she has trained to a high working trials level. I agree they should only be used by experienced handlers.
Re your dog OP, I found the gencon headcollar helped when my young GSD was younger. Better imo than some of the other headcollar types as they worked from behind the head rather than the nose.

 

[soloabe]

Thanks guys I knew you'd help me out!!

Whilst reading the link'd thread I noticed you said they are not used for pullers, could I ask why they are used?

PS can anyone recommend a type of lead/ harness/ collar to stop my big collie x from pulling? He's not naughty just really excitable but strong! He was a rescue that I presume was never taught to walk properly on a lead. I've tried all the tricks in the book stopping, walking backwards nothing seems to work

The only time i used it was similar to CC i had a very dog reactive dog, who was very strong. I used it supervised by 2 trainers along with a normal collar and leash attached so when he was just walking there was no pressure on the prong. It was simply to snap him out of getting in his red zone where nothing would stop him trying to kill the other dog.

 

[Kellys Heroes]

Thanks guys I knew you'd help me out!!

Whilst reading the link'd thread I noticed you said they are not used for pullers, could I ask why they are used?

PS can anyone recommend a type of lead/ harness/ collar to stop my big collie x from pulling? He's not naughty just really excitable but strong! He was a rescue that I presume was never taught to walk properly on a lead. I've tried all the tricks in the book stopping, walking backwards nothing seems to work

Definitely try Halti or Canny Collars - don't bother with a harness! They're just an expense that don't work on any breed that's bigger than maybe a Cocker...think of the worlds strongest man pulling a truck - what do they give him? A harness helps the dog get the weight behind its shoulders and use it to pull against you - the only time I recommended harnesses for big dogs was when we had dogs who'd had ops on their necks and hence couldn't wear a collar.
However Haltis work by the same mechanism as a horse's headcollar - once you have more control over the head the body has to follow the same way kind of thing (sorry I am v bad at explaining this!)
They have always worked for our GSDs and Goldies

 

[littlemisslauren]

Our old ridgy has always been walked in a choke chain, I dont particularly like them and it was very much a last resort with her.

One day on a walk (Ridgy walking slowly by my side = no pressure at all on chain) a man shouted at me that I was cruel and I should be reported for using a chain on the dog. He walked closer to me whilst shouting (quite aggressivly) and the ridgy had a 'moment'. I think he actually soiled himself and I asked him if he believed it to be so cruel when it could be saving him from a bite.

Her moments include lanching her entire bodyweight at whoever has invaded her space / is threatening / she just doesnt like and growling / barking untill they sod off. She is fear agressive and socialisation work was too little too late with her, she could bite.

A chain offers control and allows safe exercise.

BTW I am not happy with the way the old girl was brought up, she is more my parents dog than my own and was poorly socialised as she was intended for guard purposes but ended up being a wimpy house dog.

 

[stargirl88]

Yup, I was going to suggest a halti.
You mentioned that you tried standing still - but how consistent were you??? I'm currently working on a little sh*t of an adolescent weimaraner and basically, in any situation, lead goes remotely tight... we stop. Heels in ground! NOT moving until the lead slackens. I walk backwards if he starts lunging towards interesting grass or something. Remember that if he pulls you even a few steps to where he's going that's a massive reward for him! Having black and white rules is essential.

It used to take me about 10 minutes to walk all of 50 yards to the field, but he's wonderful now. I appreciate that perhaps check chains or prong etc might have quicker results but since I'm not big on using them and he's an OTT stress head anyway it was appropriate!

 

[soloabe]

. I appreciate that perhaps check chains or prong etc might have quicker results but since I'm not big on using them and he's an OTT stress head anyway it was appropriate!

Because your dog is just pulling. He is not lunging to get at and kill another dog. Which if he did would get him killed to.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I appreciate that perhaps check chains or prong etc might have quicker results but since I'm not big on using them and he's an OTT stress head anyway it was appropriate!

Please don't think I used a pronger as a 'quick fix', although IMO lunging at cars, bikes, other dogs is something that should be addressed as quickly as is possible. In the nicest possible way, I can't delve deep into my dog's psyche when he is launching himself at a fast moving vehicle.

 

[UnaB]

Im not sure I would reccomend one be used on a saluki.

If it was intended for a saluki or similar i think that would be incredibly cruel. For larger dogs like GSDs and labs etc etc im sure it would be fine, but to put it on a saluki would be like putting it on my basenji! She has a very fine coat and quite thin skin, even a normal collar causes irritation to her neck if she pulls Every saluki i've ever met has had the same coat/skin around their neck so it would be very unkind IMO. Im sure its a wonderful tool for the right person and dog.

I would always recommend a halti for anyone who has trouble with their dogs pulling, i find them very useful for my lab who is a huge boy for his breed and can be rather strong when he's excited.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I agree they are completely out of order on thin-skinned/delicate or small breeds. Then, unless you are in some way disabled or elderly, it is just laziness. I don't even like them on dobes or mastiffs.

 

[Sarah Sum1]

It does look a bit lethal, but as others have said, if used correctly I should imagine it's fine. We had a choke chain for our dog and all I can remember (few years back nowl) is him pulling non stop ignoring the collar and struggling to breath, mum would give a sharp yank on the lead and he would stop for oh 1 sec But he wasn't trained at all and my mum prob didn't know what she was doing. He also wee'ed up a young boys leg once while I took him up the shop

 

[stargirl88]

Hmm, I didn't mean you did it for a quick fix that came out wrong!
No he's not going to kill another dog - but if your dog does lunge and want to kill another dog.... shouldn't rehab work be in place rather than a check on the lead??? Or is that the rehab work?

He is actually highly reactive to other dogs, its not aggression but he does lunge and bark (frustration, poor socialisation) so I don't put him in situations he cannot cope with, and just build it up. its difficult I'm working with a non-interested owner!