WTF??? Army surgeons practise on live, shot pigs

Honey08

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It's only a pig. Get over it!

Alec.
The sensitivity of an old farmer!!


As long as the pigs are definitely completely unconscious and unable to feel any pain, I cannot see the ethical problem.
Pigs go through worse in farrowing crates and in being electrocuted to make your bacon, guys.
Yes, IF they are anaesthetised. We have to hope so. I suspect that in some test facilities they are not, because anaesthetics and painkillers cost money, which affects the bottom line, of course

. At least this is useful - as above, it saves lives. As long as the animals are guaranteed insensate, it's okay by me.
This is my view generally. I don't like the idea, but if it is done painlessly, I can cope!

It's about to be discussed on Jeremy Vine.
Nothing ever gets discussed on Jeremy Vine - its only hysteria and extremes allowed on! Nobody sensible gets airtime.:mad:
 

FairyLights

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Removing bullets from civilians is not too frequent an experience in most NHS hospitals - and the facilities and circumstances are rather different from the front line! The pigs are anaesthesised before they are shot - and PTS at the end of the surgery. I'd say LESS sufering than when they go to make pork chops! And they're helping save the lives of soldiers who are in dangerous situations!
Very well said.
 

minigal

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Having met many many wounded soldiers who have survived ONLY because of the advances in medicine during recent conflicts, lost a member of our family in Afghan, and being the OH of a Marine I have NO problem at all with this - I have talked to people who have worked on the pigs and they have assured me there is no suffering ( I was horrified initially when I learned of it on a training day I was on.)

I would also like to point out that medicine is advancing hugely as a result of the Iraq/Afghan war - it is a sad fact that this happens (can recommend a book called Medic if anyone is interested.....). Techniques are being successfully rolled out to civilian trauma so we all benefit from things like this ......

Also Army surgeons do a lot of work in the NHS......
 

ILuvCowparsely

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For those who don't care for the practice, on moral or ethical grounds, I wonder how you'd feel if you had a loved one, a son or a husband, mortally wounded, and the skill of the operating surgeon was down to his experience, on living and still breathing, but anaesthetised pigs. Were it me, I'd be grateful for the porker's input! ;)

It's only a pig. Get over it!

Alec.
Its an animal has feelings.
poor piggies :(


I do not see how the hell killing poor pigs , they are going to learn anything! why not go out and learn in Richmond park when they HAVE to cull the dear.


We are in the 21st century I think the surgeons should know enough by now on

how to get a bullet out
repair the would and try save the person.
 

ILuvCowparsely

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Maybe pigs could be replaced by willing human volunteers? No different to other medical tests presumably and would possibly be cheaper to pay a human than for the pigs, vets and H&S. Failing that it could be a prison lottery where all the nasty kind of criminals' names are put in a tombola?
^ like


Poor pigs thats is all I can say. :(
 
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Its a sad, bad world we live in unfortunately, and there's nothing new in this "story". Its just the location's changed - used to happen here in the UK.

I seem to remember the outcry in the 1970's and '80's, or thereabouts, when it was discovered exactly what was going on at Porton Down, the chemical warfare research establishment on Salisbury Plain where primates were being used to test deadly toxins; also sheep were being used as "ammunition fodder" just like pigs are in Denmark.

Unfortunately this won't be the last we'll hear of this sort of thing going on.
 

Pedantic

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Blimey, the Police have it rough now :eek: drugged, shot, operated on, then killed, and they thought being a copper was handing out speeding fines and getting a pension, oh, no, oh I see you mean actual "Pigs".....

I wonder how many Muslim troops will be happy to be operated on by a surgeon trained on Pigs, I suppose as long as they wipe the scalpel well on a clean cloth first it will be ok, won't it.........
 

minigal

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Its an animal has feelings.
poor piggies :(


I do not see how the hell killing poor pigs , they are going to learn anything! why not go out and learn in Richmond park when they HAVE to cull the dear.


We are in the 21st century I think the surgeons should know enough by now on

how to get a bullet out
repair the would and try save the person.
GOOD GRIEF.....!!!!!!

Lets hope you or your loved ones never get injured!!!! How on EARTH do you think surgeons are able to hone their skills? Playing that "Operation" board game?!!

They aren't born knowing what to do so they have to practise on something, it's never going to be humans so they use the closest alternative.

Human life will always come before animal life.
 

teapot

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We are in the 21st century I think the surgeons should know enough by now on how to get a bullet out, repair the would and try save the person.
Umm every bullet wound is different. No two are ever the same because of the numerous variables I could list in this post...

Someone very close to my heart has just got back from Afghan and if someone operating on a pig meant (if he had been injured) that his life was saved, then that's fine by me.

I'd also like to ask those who suggest a simulator, instead of live tissue (which is the best way of learning to operate on) how they'd suggest a simulator could react as though a body has lost all four limbs, major chest injuries, major shrapnel injuries, open neck wounds because that is how badly some of our guys get injured from one blast. Oh and I forgot to mention that due to power of adrenaline, they can still be conscious moments after the blast.

Find me a simulator good enough to react in that sort of situation, without HUGE expense to the MOD which they can't afford (and I doubt the NHS could either) and I'll go save the piggies myself. People forget that the ONLY reason we have trauma medicine is because of war. That's where it started, that's where it's being improved - the Bastion hospital is the best in the world for very good reason. Now most, if not all of those staff across the 3 services will spend the majority of their time in the NHS before and after their three month tours. If their experience, developed by the use of pigs under GA, improve the chances of mine, my family's, my great uncle Bob, the guy walking down the street etc etc chance of survival when ending up in A&E then I'm not going to complain...

(And before someone calls me a holier than thou arrogant human, have you ever considered where you precious leather saddle has come from? ;) )
 
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smokey

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Umm every bullet wound is different. No two are ever the same because of the numerous variables I could list in this post...

Someone very close to my heart has just got back from Afghan and if someone operating on a pig meant (if he had been injured) that his life was saved, then that's fine by me.

I'd also like to ask those who suggest a simulator, instead of live tissue (which is the best way of learning to operate on) how they'd suggest a simulator could react as though a body has lost all four limbs, major chest injuries, major shrapnel injuries, open neck wounds because that is how badly some of our guys get injured from one blast. Oh and I forgot to mention that due to power of adrenaline, they can still be conscious moments after the blast.

Find me a simulator good enough to react in that sort of situation, without HUGE expense to the MOD which they can't afford (and I doubt the NHS could either) and I'll go save the piggies myself. People forget that the ONLY reason we have trauma medicine is because of war. That's where it started, that's where it's being improved - the Bastion hospital is the best in the world for very good reason. Now most, if not all of those staff across the 3 services will spend the majority of their time in the NHS before and after their three month tours. If their experience, developed by the use of pigs under GA, improve the chances of mine, my family's, my great uncle Bob, the guy walking down the street etc etc chance of survival when ending up in A&E then I'm not going to complain...

(And before someone calls me a holier than thou arrogant human, have you ever considered where you precious leather saddle has come from? ;) )
Well, that sure painted a graphic picture! ;) very well put, from the trauma surgery, to the saddles! :)
 

Orangehorse

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There are thousands of pigs slaughtered every day, why get wound up about this? There was a very good person on the radio this morning, a spokesman, who said there had been a study by vets, doctors, lay people, religious people, and the conclusion was that this is OK and should be resumed in the UK, but to concentrate resources they army people still go to Denmark.

Lot of silly fuss about nothing.
 

teapot

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I wish it wasn't true Smokey but it is, sadly :(

Just something I feel very strongly about as I know and seen how much physical and mental trauma these guys and girls go through...
 
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If it wasn't for animals, surgery would never have developed the way it is.
example...Galen! Operated on a live pig to discover how nerves control certain things.
Without animals, we couldn't develop really. And yes, using criminals would be amazing, but that would only happen in a perfect world, lets face it. I may be biased as it if it wasn't for animal testing, I'd be dead... I don't brush it off, I owe those animals, which is why I treat the animals in my care to the best of my ability, their health is paramount as far as I'm concerned.

It is cruel and the animals don't get a say in it, but that's life. And as for them using horses? They wouldn't. Simply because they are completely anatomically different to us.

If those pigs are giving their lives to aid in the stability of our armed forces, who give their lives to save us...then it sits well with me.
 

sam_m

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I have to confess, initially I was horrified to read this, HOWEVER after speaking to a few friends of mine in the army who reassured me the pigs are anaesthesised before anything happens to them. And actually you know what, I'd rather a dozen or so pigs where used every year for the hope that should any of my friends including my ex husband ever be in the situation of needing a life or death operation at Bastion hospital they have the best chance of survival possible.
 

Slinkyunicorn

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I do not see how the hell killing poor pigs , they are going to learn anything! why not go out and learn in Richmond park when they HAVE to cull the dear.
Pigs have been used for used as they are the most anatomically close to humans and react/heal etc in a very similar way - they are also used to supply 'spare' parts for lots of transplant surgery in the NHS - with huge success. They have made an invaluable contribution in forwarding surgery/medicine for us and will continue to do so - there is no other viable alternative.
 

Dizzydancer

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These pigs are doing a very valuable job- they help save the lives of our young guys and girls who are putting there life on the line.
If my brother or cousin needed surgery whilst out there and the training on pigs helped save them i would be eternally grateful.
Totally agree with what teapot said. The program a while back about camp bastion hospital and the advances its making in general medicine is also important to remember. The doctors out there generally work in the NHS when not on a tour therefore we all benefit from there skills learnt through training and being out in a dangerous high pressure environment.
Its something like 95% of soldiers who make it back alive to the hospital there will go on to survive an impressive statistic i think.
 

Aru

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Those pigs probably had a better life than most commercial pigs in the UK...

Anesthetised means they felt no pain what so ever during this procedure....one small prick of a needle initially to deliver the drug then they knew no pain,thats not a bad way to go.

Meanwhile the surgeons learned valuable skills needed to save lives and limbs out on the field. Live surgery is a hundred times different to even a newly dead animal,live animals organs react differently to manipulations and drugs, the bodies anesthetised movements and the way blood flows is near impossible to replicate.

How do you think vets learn to do surgery? It isn't so long ago that terminal surgeries were used in the vet schools as well, tbh its a pity they were discontinued but cost was to high....We still learn on live animals by doing the basic procedures like spays/castrates, C sections in cattle and then being supervised on more advances procedures in our early years by more experience colleagues..
why should we expect less of our medical colleagues? There is so much more at stake for them. Plus as pigs are very similar in organ size and reactions to humans it makes a lot of sense.
 

Gingerwitch

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At least these animals are out of it - those poor poor people in WW2 were used as experiments, and a lot of what we know about medicine is down to the horrific resarch that was carried out.
 

ILuvCowparsely

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GOOD GRIEF.....!!!!!!

Lets hope you or your loved ones never get injured!!!! How on EARTH do you think surgeons are able to hone their skills? Playing that "Operation" board game?!!

They aren't born knowing what to do so they have to practise on something, it's never going to be humans so they use the closest alternative.

Human life will always come before animal life.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

Alec Swan

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Those pigs probably had a better life than most commercial pigs in the UK...

Anesthetised means they felt no pain what so ever during this procedure....one small prick of a needle initially to deliver the drug then they knew no pain,thats not a bad way to go.

Meanwhile the surgeons learned valuable skills needed to save lives and limbs out on the field. Live surgery is a hundred times different to even a newly dead animal,live animals organs react differently to manipulations and drugs, the bodies anesthetised movements and the way blood flows is near impossible to replicate.

How do you think vets learn to do surgery? It isn't so long ago that terminal surgeries were used in the vet schools as well, tbh its a pity they were discontinued but cost was to high....We still learn on live animals by doing the basic procedures like spays/castrates, C sections in cattle and then being supervised on more advances procedures in our early years by more experience colleagues..
why should we expect less of our medical colleagues? There is so much more at stake for them. Plus as pigs are very similar in organ size and reactions to humans it makes a lot of sense.
Currently, and for me, the post of the year. I applaud such irrefutable and sound reason.

Alec.
 
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cptrayes

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It's not just the army folks! My OH owes his life to a surgeon who told him with a big grin on his face that the artificial heart valve that he had just fitted was "the largest one I have ever put in a human".

Do I think that was fair on the pig/s? Since the OH's life expectancy was 6 months and changed to 25 years, yes, I think I do.
 

teapot

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It's not just the army folks! My OH owes his life to a surgeon who told him with a big grin on his face that the artificial heart valve that he had just fitted was "the largest one I have ever put in a human".

Do I think that was fair on the pig? Since the OH's life expectancy was 6 months and is now 24 years, yes, I think I do.
But in that case, the valve would have come from a dead pig. Same goes for bovine ones.

It's the people who are raising their arms up in disgrace that these pigs are shot and operated on under anesthetic for the benefit of humans that some of us have taken issue with. Slightly different issue I think for this thread anyway :)
 

cptrayes

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But in that case, the valve would have come from a dead pig. Same goes for bovine ones.

It's the people who are raising their arms up in disgrace that these pigs are shot and operated on under anesthetic for the benefit of humans that some of us have taken issue with. Slightly different issue I think for this thread anyway :)
Not at all. The clue was in the words "artificial heart valve" :) The valve is mechanical, carbon fibre and titanium, and they practise putting them in on live pigs. And they were developed in the first place by testing on pigs to iron out the blood clotting problems that mechanical valves cause. For that, the pigs will not only have been alive when operated on, but they will have been brought back to consciousness after massive surgery to see how well they survived the new valve.



ps yes, he ticks. Loudly. Scares old ladies on buses, especially if he is carrying a rucksack :D
 
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teapot

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Oh you're talking about a mechanical one, not an actual pig valve (which are occasionally used) which then yes it is relevant :)
 

Alec Swan

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.......

It's the people who are raising their arms up in disgrace that these pigs are shot and operated on under anesthetic for the benefit of humans that some of us have taken issue with. Slightly different issue I think for this thread anyway :)
From that, are we to take it, that you consider the life of a pig to be of greater value than that of a human?

Alec.
 
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