WWYD- Broken hoof pastern axis & crumbling feet.

[Billy the kid]

Hi Everyone,

Im looking for some advise on what you might do in my situation.

I've known for a while his feet arent in good condition (esp backs)
they crumble very badly and dont grow much, when they do grow they seem to spend out over his shoe and not grow down. His worst hoof is from his sock leg, is that common?

So i've been getting him shod regularly and always oiling them, i try to look after them the best i know how. I'm getting him some farriers blend asap aswell.

Anyway, about a week ago i put a pic of Billy up to see what people thought of his conformation, one poster noticed his feet, and mentioned he has a broken hoof pastern axis, and worse on his hinds. I hadnt noticed it before (i didnt really know about it), now iv done some reading about this, its really bugging me. I can see his hind feet are really flat and not upright at all.
I understand that he will be weight baring wrongly with his feet like this, and putting stress on joints and ligaments. (i jump alot, so im worried i will cause him damage).

What id like to know is... Is the broken axis most likely to be his natural conformation, or is it a farrier issue?

My farrier is lovely, he comes when he says he will, he is easy to get hold of, shoes always stay on and he doesnt charge the earth..BUT i dont think he knows how to fix the issues Billy has.

I will try to get some pictures of his feet tonight.

I should also mention, he squares off his back feet. Iv watched him being ridden and he isnt lazy, he picks his foot right up nicely, but as he puts it down it just catches the ground. Could this be because his feet are the wrong shape? Its only his backs he squares off.

I'm thinking of changing farriers, but just not sure if im doing the right thing.

Soooo sorry for the essay, id be very grateful of any help.

Thanks

Billy.

Sorry if I've spelt anything wronly, i've tried to be as correct as i can.

 

[dianchi]

So look at barefoot?

Or at least look at the diet that you are feeding, feet grow out from what you put in!

 

[Billy the kid]

So look at barefoot?

Or at least look at the diet that you are feeding, feet grow out from what you put in!

Dianchi, Thanks for the reply.

Why would barefoot help? Surely his feet would still be the same?

Diet is a tricky one, he comes out in massive lumps if im not very carefull what he gets. Atm he gets Allen and page Power and performance and allen and page high fibre. He gets daily turn out and plenty of hay at night/ days in.

Do you know any good supplements you could recommend maybe?

Thanks

 

[dianchi]

I recommend that you read the Rockley blog.......

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/p/hoofcare-essentials.html

barefoot diet is ideally high fibre, low sugar, very good hoof supplement is from Progressive Earth on Ebay.

His hooves don't sound like they are working in the current management so what have you go to lose?

 

[Billy the kid]

I recommend that you read the Rockley blog.......

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/p/hoofcare-essentials.html

barefoot diet is ideally high fibre, low sugar, very good hoof supplement is from Progressive Earth on Ebay.

His hooves don't sound like they are working in the current management so what have you go to lose?

His diet is low sugar, high fibre already, so at least thats one thing.

I shall have a good read through the blog, thanks.

im happy to try anything to get him right, i just dont have any knowledge of why barefoot could help, could having shoes on make his feet grow differently? I do alot of hacking and he will be eventing this summer so idealy he would of had shoes on so he can have studs in. But if it could help him id be open to trying.

id really like to know if the broken axis is something that could be sorted or if its just the way his made.

Thanks again for your reply.

 

[dianchi]

Yes shoes will have an effect on his feet, also his frog probably isn't in contact with the ground as its designed to be so the horses own structures for support aren't being used.

There are many horses that event barefoot, compete in endurance etc etc, you will have better grip with good feet!

Without seeing the horse in the flesh I couldn't say that it is the way he is or its due to poor feet/farrier.

But given that your current way isn't working would recommend that you try it.

You can contact Nic at Rockley for help and advice, PistolPete on here has just picked up "peter" from the Rockley blog so could give you first hand info on Rockley.

 

[Goldenstar]

My TB arrived here with feet like that .
He spent over a year without shoes and now has regular breaks with no shoes .
Once you are in the broken axis situation with the feet crumbling there's really no other way forward except shoes off carefully monitored work BF and wait the horse to grow a new foot .
My horse now has very good foot balance .
They can grow feet at a completely new angle from the top to the feet they have ,the hoof pastern axis is not set in stone .

 

[samlf]

Hi, you may want to review your diet - power and performance is 20% starch alone (and sugar figure isn't listed online). a low sugar and starch diet would be below 10% combined so the P&P alone is more than double that.

Also consider feeding a supplement such as forageplus hoof balancers.

It sound like a break from shoes would beneficial, even if it is only so you can grow in some new healthy hoof and then reshoe eventually.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Faulty farriery can create a broken hoof/pastern axis, whether the horse is shod or barefoot.

My mare was almost crippled by poor foot balance after repeated poor trimming, creating a long toe/low heel imbalance. She was unshod. My then farrier was highly qualified and experienced .

My new farrier has gradually rescued her foot balance, initially he put front shoes on, and now 8 months later has been able to remove the shoes again. He worked from the x rays taken by the vet, and from her advice. Her angles have improved dramatically.

I have been supplementing her diet with Pro Hoof, and this has improves her hoof health a lot, too. She is on a low sugar/high fibre diet.

Her soles were so thin, and she was so sore, that she had to be shod for a while. Old farrier had over trimmed her and her sole were paper thin and bruised. I always aimed to get her out of shoes again, if possible.

 

[Billy the kid]

Thanks for the replies, i really appriciate it.

Goldenstar- Its nice to hear you got your TB sorted, and that the broken axis can be repaired. I wasnt sure if that was something that could be helped once out of line. Did your horse square its feet off?

samif- Gosh i didnt realise the P&P was so high in starch, here's me thinking im doing the right thing. He was so sluggish before and now his great to ride on the P&P, so its abit dis heartening to think ill have to start all over again on the feeding journey.

It does look like some barefoot time is the answer.

He competed last year without studs but was slipping alittle and he loses confidence easily when he slips, so i was going to ride him in studs this year to help him. He is a big wuss! I did notice that there was some people competing barefoot though.

 

[Billy the kid]

Faulty farriery can create a broken hoof/pastern axis, whether the horse is shod or barefoot.

My mare was almost crippled by poor foot balance after repeated poor trimming, creating a long toe/low heel imbalance. She was unshod. My then farrier was highly qualified and experienced .

My new farrier has gradually rescued her foot balance, initially he put front shoes on, and now 8 months later has been able to remove the shoes again. He worked from the x rays taken by the vet, and from her advice. Her angles have improved dramatically.

I have been supplementing her diet with Pro Hoof, and this has improves her hoof health a lot, too. She is on a low sugar/high fibre diet.

Her soles were so thin, and she was so sore, that she had to be shod for a while. Old farrier had over trimmed her and her sole were paper thin and bruised. I always aimed to get her out of shoes again, if possible.

Thanks Tiddlypom,

An x-ray seems like a good idea. Then no doubt as to conformation or poor feet issue. I think i may change farrier, i have a feeling my farrier doesnt know how to rectify the issue (he hasnt even ever mentioned there is a problem to me).

I think maybe shoes off, high starch out and a good supplement in!

 

[putasocinit]

stop oiling the feet, you are putting a barrier on them which is stopping natural moisture (water) from entering the feet, a horse only needs to have his feet hosed twice a week to keep the moisture balance correct. keep the oil for the showring.

 

[Billy the kid]

stop oiling the feet, you are putting a barrier on them which is stopping natural moisture (water) from entering the feet, a horse only needs to have his feet hosed twice a week to keep the moisture balance correct. keep the oil for the showring.

Hi,

Its interesting you mention this. My mums farrier told me the same, but my farrier said to oil them, so i have been, but since his feet are no better it cant hurt to stop oiling them.

What about cornucrescine? Thats water based i think and designed to moisturise?

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Goldenstar]

Thanks for the replies, i really appriciate it.

Goldenstar- Its nice to hear you got your TB sorted, and that the broken axis can be repaired. I wasnt sure if that was something that could be helped once out of line. Did your horse square its feet off?

samif- Gosh i didnt realise the P&P was so high in starch, here's me thinking im doing the right thing. He was so sluggish before and now his great to ride on the P&P, so its abit dis heartening to think ill have to start all over again on the feeding journey.

It does look like some barefoot time is the answer.

He competed last year without studs but was slipping alittle and he loses confidence easily when he slips, so i was going to ride him in studs this year to help him. He is a big wuss! I did notice that there was some people competing barefoot though.

He had long toes , flat feet ,weak heels and the walls where so broken and crumbling away around the nail holes he was sore after shoeing ( because it was almost impossible to nail on the shoes well ) .
Studs was one of the main reasons I reshod him .
But honestly when in hard work he and I are both happier when he's shod.
But the year I spent on his feet was time well spent and I will always be careful to give him shoeing breaks .
He has a very healthy BF diet and supplements from forage plus he still does not grow loads of foot but he's doing fine now as long as get the shoes off regularity for breaks .

 

[Billy the kid]

He had long toes , flat feet ,weak heels and the walls where so broken and crumbling away around the nail holes he was sore after shoeing ( because it was almost impossible to nail on the shoes well ) .
Studs was one of the main reasons I reshod him .
But honestly when in hard work he and I are both happier when he's shod.
But the year I spent on his feet was time well spent and I will always be careful to give him shoeing breaks .
He has a very healthy BF diet and supplements from forage plus he still does not grow loads of foot but he's doing fine now as long as get the shoes off regularity for breaks .

This sounds just like billy, apart from getting sore after farrier, he isnt sore at all (not that he shows anyway).

I think once i have got him sorted, i will probably do similar to you and shoe him but give barefoot breaks when i can do. Lets hope in a year i can say his feet are better. fingers crossed.

 

[Billy the kid]

barefoot question- can i just have him barefoot on the backs? or am i best to get all four shoes off?

Thanks

 

[cptrayes]

stop oiling the feet, you are putting a barrier on them which is stopping natural moisture (water) from entering the feet, a horse only needs to have his feet hosed twice a week to keep the moisture balance correct. keep the oil for the showring.

Actually, research has shown that soaking does not alter the balance of water in the horn. The moisture content comes from inside the foot.

 

[Goldenstar]

barefoot question- can i just have him barefoot on the backs? or am i best to get all four shoes off?

Thanks

I just do all four at once .
Search on here and you will zillions of threads on how people do it.
I had the book feet first which helped me .
But I got most of my answers on here and I swopped to a BF trimmer who taught me loads .

 

[Billy the kid]

Got some pics. They Aren't the best but you can see the shape. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the shoes off, just not sure on if to stay with my farrier or not.

Thanks again to everyone for your help and replies.

Please forgive the muddy legs, he is a mud monster atm.

 

[ester]

IMO those feet would definitely benefit from some time out of shoes- for his long term soundness even if ok now, In the top pic you can see that the angle growing from the top of the hoof is steeper which if you followed it down would generate a shorter toe and improve the hoof/pastern angle- currently it looks like your farrier has been dumping that toe to try and shorten it.. .

 

[cptrayes]

If the white one is a hind foot, then from the shape of it, which is unusually underrun for a hind, I think you would be wise to check your horse's back and hocks if they have not already been looked at. Feet that shape may have resulted from back or hock problems, and if they didn't really from them, they are very likely to have caused them.

In my own horse's case, under run hinds were caused by kissing spines. He is nearly six months post OP now, and his heels are just about back where they should be.

 

[Billy the kid]

IMO those feet would definitely benefit from some time out of shoes- for his long term soundness even if ok now, In the top pic you can see that the angle growing from the top of the hoof is steeper which if you followed it down would generate a shorter toe and improve the hoof/pastern angle- currently it looks like your farrier has been dumping that toe to try and shorten it.. .

Yep that white one is the worst. to be fair to farrier, his about 5weeks since last shod and he squares his toes off, so that might be what you can see? The pics arnt great really, you cant see the cracks because of the mud! I think his foot is really flat! it must be putting strain on things already. It cant hurt to get shoes off, so im defo up for it! Hope i can get them looking better in time. Also i forgot to mention, that foot had an abscess into and has a hole behind the wall, its visable when the shoe is off. Wonder if thats going to be a prob with going barefoot?

 

[Billy the kid]

If the white one is a hind foot, then from the shape of it, which is unusually underrun for a hind, I think you would be wise to check your horse's back and hocks if they have not already been looked at. Feet that shape may have resulted from back or hock problems, and if they didn't really from them, they are very likely to have caused them.

In my own horse's case, under run hinds were caused by kissing spines. He is nearly six months post OP now, and his heels are just about back where they should be.

Hi,

yes the white is a hind leg. He is standing forward on the leg in this pic so it looks abit strange anyway. What sort of hock/back problems would you expect to see? He shows no sign of any other problem yet. He is sound atm.

apart from squaring the toes off.

Thanks

 

[Billy the kid]

Another angle of the white foot.

 

[ester]

I did wonder whether he might be doing that to his toe, does he do that on both hinds?

CP would you expect that amount of toe wear if it were just the toe being too long - or is it too pronounced not to be movement related as well in your opinion

 

[Billy the kid]

I did wonder whether he might be doing that to his toe, does he do that on both hinds?

CP would you expect that amount of toe wear if it were just the toe being too long - or is it too pronounced not to be movement related as well in your opinion

Yes both hinds, worse on white leg. He picks them up nice and high but then let's it drag as it goes down. When he is excited he won't drag them at all but once settled on the hack he starts dragging. Iv tried pushing him on, collecting him up, transitions. Doesn't seem to help. Maybe a video of him trotting would help. Been looking back through pics and his feet look better when I first got him (year and half ago) they seem to have got worse over the last year.

 

[ester]

I think it might be worth looking at why he is doing that, whether it is worse on tarmac/arena with some slow mo video perhaps (you could then show to your vet too) as there is poss something back/bilateral going on which isn't showing up as lame but is affecting him until some adrenaline kicks in. All speculation of course.

 

[Billy the kid]

I think it might be worth looking at why he is doing that, whether it is worse on tarmac/arena with some slow mo video perhaps (you could then show to your vet too) as there is poss something back/bilateral going on which isn't showing up as lame but is affecting him until some adrenaline kicks in. All speculation of course.

Dont you wish they could talk sometimes?

Looks like it may even be time to ask the vet to come out and check him over. He went through a 5 stage vetting at 5YO he is seven now, i know alot can change in 18months, but he did pass all flexion tests ect at the time, so hopefully its nothing too sinister.

If you saw him messing on in the field and when ridden its hard to think anything could be wrong with him, he is a lively boy. I dont mean being naughty when ridden, just excited and lively.

 

[ester]

Ha, my lame 20 yo was still messing about with the rest of them that's different apparently . It would be interesting to get an update when you can if he has an MOT

 

[Billy the kid]

Ha, my lame 20 yo was still messing about with the rest of them that's different apparently . It would be interesting to get an update when you can if he has an MOT

have just called vet, i think its worth having him checked over, maybe get some flexion tests done ect. Then i can have piece of mind. Times he has been lame before he was a total baby and stood on three legs looking very sorry for himself, which i why i dont think he is sore, but of cause i dont know for sure.

TBH i find barefoot a little bit mind boggling, I've red some of the links people have posted to barefoot web sites and i really didnt understand it all.