WWYD dealer won't refund

leggs

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Need some thoughts or peoples experience on the subject.
-bought a horse (internationally) horse is unridable has a carreer ending condition (this is not the dispute X-rays are conclusive)
-dealer will not refund but offers another horse in exchange of my picking. But i'm done, don't want another just now or maybe never.
- refuses to pick up broken horse as long as I don't agree to his terms
- horse was around 5.5K

don't want to put details on i-net just yet, please pm if something is unclear.
 

ihatework

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WWID - Id call the BHS legal helpline and follow their advice. I'm pig headed enough that I would fight the dealer if I stood even a slightest chance of winning.
 

FlyingCircus

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Depending on legal advice, if you don't really have a case (eg, you didn't get it vetted), then I would take the exchange option. I'd exchange for the most sellable horse then sell it on (since you don't want another).
 

Peter7917

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Depending on legal advice, if you don't really have a case (eg, you didn't get it vetted), then I would take the exchange option. I'd exchange for the most sellable horse then sell it on (since you don't want another).

This. Get the advice. If your unlikely to win through the courts then exchange for the most sellable one and then resell.
 

stormox

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How long did you have the horse before you found the problem? did you see it and get it vetted before you paid for it? Its unlikely you are entitled to your money back- I would take the exchange offered.
 

leggs

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I have been advised by an equine lawyer and the ECC (european consumer council) that I have a solid case.
Problem is that I want the horse gone asap as it is heartbreaking to have to care for him everyday, knowing what I know.
Ofcourse the horse was vetted (approved for hunting/SJ/eventing) then arrived here it was not ridable from day one, did more extensive vetting (xrays back)showing horse was born with KS- as said this is not disputed.
 

shadowboy

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Same as above, exchange for the most rideable and most sought after type they have got and then sell to recoup as much of the costs you can. Going through court is time consuming and has no guarantees especially as the seller is international.
 

ihatework

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You really can't have everything, rubbish as the situation is.

You either sit tight and wait out the legal route or you cut your losses and take the exchange deal.

If I thought I had been intentionally done over by a dealer and I had solid evidence then I would see them in court. If it was just an unfortunate situation then I'd take the exchange.

Key question is - did you take bloods at the vetting and have they been analysed? If so what did they show?
 

junglefairy

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I wouldn't exchange the horse. Once you own a horse you're responsible for it and if I knew the horse could be resold into a life of potential pain and misery then I couldn't live with that. On that basis I would pursue the seller and, if the horse could never be ridden happily, then have him pts.
 

gnubee

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If you have good advice that you are entitled to a refund and would likely win the claim, ask your solicitor to draft a letter to the dealer saying they have one week to arrange collection of the horse after which it will be put on full livery at a cost of £X per week until the case goes to court as you can't face bonding further with a horse that you can't keep. Up to you whether you can afore the risk of actually investing in full livery til you win the case but might scare them into action anyway.
 

Irish gal

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This is a very strange thing to happen. I presume you bought an experienced horse with x, y and z done. Wonder how he managed that if unridable since birth. Hard to believe a dealer would try to sell such a horse as it could only blow up in his face. I'm not doubting what you're saying, it's just a baffling scenario. Most dealers are conscious of their reputation, and selling a horse like that is not going to end well for them.

I would take the exchange. The legal route is hard to predict and you risk spending double what the horse cost and perhaps more on fees. Take the easiest route for yourself and put this unfortunate experience behind you.
 

luckyoldme

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I wouldn't exchange the horse. Once you own a horse you're responsible for it and if I knew the horse could be resold into a life of potential pain and misery then I couldn't live with that. On that basis I would pursue the seller and, if the horse could never be ridden happily, then have him pts.

this. but thats because I would do what i could personally live with.
 

EQUIDAE

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Ofcourse the horse was vetted (approved for hunting/SJ/eventing) then arrived here it was not ridable from day one, did more extensive vetting (xrays back)showing horse was born with KS- as said this is not disputed.

When you said vetted I assume you mean 5 stage - if so, then your dispute is with the vet not the seller, the seller may not have known the horse's issues. Contact the veterinary practice that did the initial vetting and dispute it with them. This is what my friend did and the vet's insurance company paid out to the value of the horse, the insurance company then sold the horse on through an aution to recoup their 'loss'. Do not pay for any further treatment if you are not planning on keeping the horse as the insurance will not pay for investigations or treatments, only loss of use value.
 

ycbm

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This is a very strange thing to happen. I presume you bought an experienced horse with x, y and z done. Wonder how he managed that if unridable since birth.

Plenty of horses work well for a number of years before kissing spines get too much for them. They may be a little cold backed, or sensitive to saddle fit, but that's all that shows. Then change home, change rider, change saddle and it all gets too much.


Hard to believe a dealer would try to sell such a horse as it could only blow up in his face. I'm not doubting what you're saying, it's just a baffling scenario. Most dealers are conscious of their reputation, and selling a horse like that is not going to end well for them.
.

I don't think you read enough dodgy dealer Facebook sites.
 

ycbm

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When you said vetted I assume you mean 5 stage - if so, then your dispute is with the vet not the seller, the seller may not have known the horse's issues. Contact the veterinary practice that did the initial vetting and dispute it with them. This is what my friend did and the vet's insurance company paid out to the value of the horse, the insurance company then sold the horse on through an aution to recoup their 'loss'. Do not pay for any further treatment if you are not planning on keeping the horse as the insurance will not pay for investigations or treatments, only loss of use value.

I don't think you are right, sorry. The horse was sound under saddle on the day. Spine x rays are not a normal part of a vetting. The only claim against the vet would be if they failed to take blood, but this is irrelevant in this case as there is no dispute with the dealer that the pre-existing condition existed on the day the horse was vetted.

Why do you think there is a case against the vet?
 

popsdosh

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I don't think you are right, sorry. The horse was sound under saddle on the day. Spine x rays are not a normal part of a vetting. The only claim against the vet would be if they failed to take blood, but this is irrelevant in this case as there is no dispute with the dealer that the pre-existing condition existed on the day the horse was vetted.

Why do you think there is a case against the vet?

This is the truth of the matter the dealer does not dispute theres a problem he was most likely totally unaware of it, and under the circumstances has offered a replacement.

Not sure what the problem is? As the horse was vetted I would suggest they are doing more than most would. Lets just put the boot on the other foot a moment . The dealer is not based here so there is some distance. There are many horses that go to a new home and for whatever reason the buyer changes their mind about it. This is the reason that exchange is the default option for a lot of dealers.

I know some dealers who do not allow vettings at all but offer very straight forward warranty terms which give you better comeback than a vetting.. All a vetting tells you is this Vet found this horse suitable in this moment in time so much depends on the Vet doing it. I once took a three yo to Doncaster sales 3 vets found a heart mummer and 3 didnt
 

PeterNatt

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It very much will depend on the laws of you country and the legal advice you get.
I would very much avoid replacing the horse as then a lot of your evidence has gone.
I would determine what the legal costs are likely to be and then have a re-think.
 

Dry Rot

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Strange to say but speak to Trading Standards. I think under EU law, you have up to six months to reject defective goods. Horses come under the definition of 'goods'.

I had a client from Europe who decided to buy from another stud here in the UK. (The issue was transport as I was quite a lot further away). The pony broke down after a couple of months but the sellers, a commercial stud, refused to have anything to do with it. Using Trading Standards, the sellers finally reached a settlement out of court. The client kept the pony, which was suitable for quiet hacking only because of the defect, and sold it on. The seller's paid compensation to cover the difference in value, vet, etc. A major concern for the sellers was the injury their reputation would have suffered if they had not settled, so adverse publicity is always a good bargaining point.
 

pansymouse

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My friend had the same problem with a dealer in the UK but she was able to prove through the bloods he was 'buted for the vetting. They also wanted to exchange but she obviously had zero trust in them so sent him back and sued them. She won the case and was awarded a full refund and costs then the dealer claimed they didn't have the money to pay her so she had to used bailiffs to recover it. She got all her money back but it took 18 months.
 

YasandCrystal

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OP is from Netherlands so I would say different laws apply. I know a dealer friend used to buy horses from Belgium and she said that the horses sold by law had to be sound and rideable otherwise she would just send them back. It was quite a long warranty timeframe too, which is why it was viable for them to buy unseen on the breeding alone.
 

ester

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It is kind of hard for anyone to make much comment as the laws we are familiar with aren't going to apply, especially as we have no idea where the horse came from either.
 

Luci07

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It is kind of hard for anyone to make much comment as the laws we are familiar with aren't going to apply, especially as we have no idea where the horse came from either.
I agree. Also there is a world of difference between what is legally correct and what the realistic outcome could be. As an example, I do know someone who bought from a dealer, vetted etc. Horse quickly turned out to be complete wrong and unsafe and even a pro struggled. Person won the court case but is still struggling to get her money. Dealer claims he owns nothing of his own so baliffs can't collect.
 

be positive

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Surely you'd have a case against the vet if it passed a full vetting when you state the proof you have is that it has had KS since it was born...?

Unless the vet had xray eyes there will be no way he could tell it had KS if it presented sound at the vetting, most horses with KS are only diagnosed by xrays and frequently this is the last place done as they rarely show pain response on palpation.

I am unsure how the vets can now state it was born with KS as a definite statement and guess there is probably more to the story than we are hearing, the dealer has offered a replacement which may not be ideal but if he has no cash it would be better than waiting months for resolution through legal routes when there will still be a possible difficulty getting the money and the horse returned, I don't think the OP can expect the money back and to keep the horse so it can be pts. the dealer may wish to look into operating if it is an option.
 

ester

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I agree be positive.
If a replacement is offered I would take it, much better than chasing money that may never materialise.
 

ester

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Well I'd want back xrays done first obviously ;)

but then it goes back again.
Or you just select what you think will be most saleable and flog it straight on to recoup as much as you can.
 

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite

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I wouldn't exchange the horse. Once you own a horse you're responsible for it and if I knew the horse could be resold into a life of potential pain and misery then I couldn't live with that. On that basis I would pursue the seller and, if the horse could never be ridden happily, then have him pts.

^^^ Oh dear, this is what I know I'd do!! Coz I'm a softy and couldn't help myself.......

Head says that OP should accept the Dealer's offer of an exchange for another horse, hand the one she's got back, say thank you very much and walk away; unfortunately heart (for me) would dictate that I hung onto this poor unfortunate horse in the hope that a "loss of use" decision would be arrived at and/or some financial recompense, which would then mean the horse could be PTS decently rather than be returned to the dealer where it would be buted up and sold on, undoubtedly into the meat market.
 

Luci07

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^^^ Oh dear, this is what I know I'd do!! Coz I'm a softy and couldn't help myself.......

Head says that OP should accept the Dealer's offer of an exchange for another horse, hand the one she's got back, say thank you very much and walk away; unfortunately heart (for me) would dictate that I hung onto this poor unfortunate horse in the hope that a "loss of use" decision would be arrived at and/or some financial recompense, which would then mean the horse could be PTS decently rather than be returned to the dealer where it would be buted up and sold on, undoubtedly into the meat market.

Except..it could be argued by the insurers that this is a pre existing condition as the horse was supposed to already have KS before purchase. Also, insurance companies always have a 2 week period after the insurance starts where there is none or limited cover. This would be a very grey area and while I agree about heart versus head...it's hard to write over £5k for a horse you owe nothing to...unless you have deep pockets.
 
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