WWYD: Dog bites child

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GirlFriday

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Question (becasue I'm not sure what, if anything, I should have done differently at the time):

* Two small terriers (one JRT type, one Border type) tied to a stake at a VERY public show ground
* Border type being casually petted by a smartly dressed young lady who looked like a stall holder/worker
* Young dog-aware toddler walks over, and begins to ask young lady about the dogs
* JRT runs to the length of it's lead (child was a well over a meter away and not moving towards dog) and bites child

Now, it turns out that
(a) young lady was a member of the public, not affiliated to the dogs/stall
(b) young toddler was not hurt as dog was small and got a mouthful of clothing
(c) child not too upset as more surprised than scared and not hurt

Stall holder wandered over too late(? 30-60seconds I guess?) to immediately discipline dog, muttered vague explanation ("Oh, I'd just left them tied here, I did wonder...") and afaik no action was taken so dog 'got away' with it a remained a (small) danger.

So, I don't want this to happen again (child already trained to speak to owner before approaching any dogs but in this case simply approached wrong adult) but what would you do/have done about the owner & dog involved and what would you teach the child?

I mean child regularly meets off-lead dogs in the park and so forth so child simply being 'not allowed' to go within a couple of meters of any dog in a public place would render child pretty much immobile (although obviously there are certain ones we know/don't like the look of and avoid you can't really make child hold your hand the WHOLE time in a park - or can you? And would this one have bitten anyway?)

Was far too busy making sure child OK and not wanting to make it into a 'scary' thing to have a row with stall holder for leaving an aggressive dog unsupervised but anyway, what would you ask them to do? Supervise constantly? Muzzle?

Interested to hear.
 
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Dogs shouldn't have been staked out but would teach child not to approach *any* dog unless you are around. Especially a back-tied one (can make some dogs defensive).

I was reared around dog shows and narrowly avoided getting savaged by a dog owned by a friend of my mother so not every adult is a sensible one. So had it drummed into me and managed to make it to adulthood despite being quite a foolhardy child.
 
So, the rule would be 'always keep your adult between you and any dog you don't know' with 'even if the dog's (apparent) owner says it is fine'? I guess that could work. Like I go with 'don't do with strangers unless your adult says so' rather than 'don't go with strangers'. Don't want to make things scary for the child but obviously don't want child hurt!

To be clear - the child approached the adult (child & I thought was dog's owner) who was touching one of the dogs and the other dog ran over and bit child, child was not directly approaching either dog and certainly not the one who bit.
 
Something like that, yes. As an adult, you will also see the differences in the eyes, tail, ears, general demeanour of an uncomfortable dog better than a child and better than, probably, the owner. In my experience. A lot of people don't seem to know what they are looking at.
 
I think you were just very unlucky. An aggreesive dog absolutely should not be tied up and unattended in a public place -in fact, it shouldn't even be there. My son knew not to just walk up and pat dogs, but he would always ask an adult if he thought it was their dog, and as you say you don't want to make them completely neurotic.
The dogs owner is a total fool, when you go out with your dogs who have to expect children to touch them, even if in an ideal world they didn't.
 
Stallholder shouldn't really have left two dogs tied up for prolonged periods at a showground where public could get access to them, that isn't being fair to either the dog(s) OR anyone else. It would have been better perhaps to have put the dogs somewhere where they would be protected from people being able to pet them and thus wind them up, like a crate or something.

Child obviously didn't know any better, needed a responsible adult to supervise them and stop them from doing that: incidently, where WAS the "responsible adult" FFS? They frankly need a kick up the jacksie for letting their kid go up to strange dogs like that in the first place, and who I would blame totally for the whole incident TBH. The dogs were only being protective of "their" space and their owner didn't, to be fair, know that an incident like this would happen (tho' if I WAS the owner I'd be making an appointment to see a legal beagle ASAP just to cover my own backside, as with incidents like this there's the very real possibility of some little gold-digger of a parent going and making a huge fuss to see what Com-Pen-Say-Shun they can get out of it).

If I'd gone up to a strange dog and got bitten when I was a kid, I'd have been given a good tanning for disobeying my parents' strict instructions not to...........
 
I know you said child approached adult as has been told to but I rather think adult should approach adult
 
I have a dog mad toddler, he's been nipped once (more like repremanded the way a bitch would to a pup) and thoroughly deserved it ( plus his dad got a row for allowing it to happen). Hasn't taught him though, he is still all over them given half a chance. He is 20 months, and as soon as he will understand he will be taught he can't clap strange dogs unless the parent / granny etc he is with says it's ok. I wouldn't have him approaching strangers and asking them directly alone.

As for the incident, at the time I'd have liked to have told the owner that it might be a bad idea to keep them in public reaching distance as wouldn't want anything worse to happen. But you were dealing with the child, so it's understandable that you never got a chance to say.
 
Your question in the OP seems to be what I would do with the stall holders dog. Much as I would not leave my small dog there, the child was not hurt, there was some noise that is all. So, I would do nothing with the stall holder. It sounds like they realised they had done the wrong thing already.

I guess it should be adult approaching adult anyway from a child protection point of view, but to be fair a small dog left out by a stall holder would not look threatening to most people.

I would do nothing TBH. Life happens, stuff goes wrong. The less fuss you make the less the child will dwell on what was a very small incident.
 
I wouldn't do anything tbh, small children should be taught never to approach / touch dogs without the owner present.

In this case though it sounds as if the child wasn't approaching the dog but dog strained at lead to get to child so in this instance I would say to stall holder an unpredictable dog should be attended at all times and if it has to be chained then it is away from customers .
 
Unpredictable dogs (and in fact even friendly, social dogs) should not be tied in a public area without the owner present at all times. That is just common sense (but, yes, it isn't that common)!

In the incident described, I think there was a duty of care by the parent to ensure their child was not put in a position where they were able to be bitten and I would always try to avoid my son approaching strange dogs and especially dogs that are tied up. However, as the child was doing the "right thing" in approaching the person they thought was the dog owner and not the dog itself, then the majority of blame should be placed with the dog owner who should not have left their dog in a vulnerable position where it was able to be approached by anyone.
 
I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable with my child going up to an unknown dog, even if it was on a lead/they were near the owner etc. You never know what a dog is like, case in point here.

Saying that, I would never take a dog to this type of thing if I knew it was like this, let alone leave it tied up alone. What a stupid person to not think that something like this could happen and to put other people at risk.
 
there are a lot of people who haven't read the original post. Child approached what he/she thought was the owner. JRT ran to bite said child. Child was NOT petting the dog.

The owner is lucky. A complaint could have had very serious consequences for the dog. He/she is also a complacent idiot as dogs don't suddenly become aggressive but leaving a potentially tetchy/aggressive dog penned out in a public area is inviting a disaster.
 
I would be considering two issues here. I would be looking to train my child not to approach either a dog, or a 'strange' adult without supervision from the child's own accompanying adult. Asking if he/she can ask the nice lady if it's ok the pat the dog would ensure appropriate supervision of interaction with both strange dog, and strange human - both of which require risk assessment.
 
To be clear the child was never more than 1-2meters from their own adult who was focussed on child and pushing child's (empty) buggy. Strange human was perfectly pleasent to talk to, as actually was stall holder.

So, yes, child approached 'strange' adult but not in any way 'alone' or 'unsupervised' and child did not directly approach either dog, espec. not the one that bit who was sitting a meter or so away from the other & the 'strange' adult.

Child would be in closer proximity to dog (and strange adult too) walking past them on a pavement.
 
JRT if knowingly volatile should not have been staked within reach of anyone - but not sure what the post is really about. The event is over, noone was hurt, and presumably OP can't contact the dogs owner to say anything..

Not every dog will be this way, and the child already has been taught not to approach strange dogs so leave it at that?
 
Why wouldn't the non owner be perfectly pleasant to talk to? Why are you calling them 'strange' anyway because they didn't realise that you/your toddler assumed they were the owner??

I don't think anyone suggested that the child was in anyway alone or unsupervised just that at a such a young age any asking about interaction with unknown dogs is best done by the supervising adult then there wouldn't be any confusion about who is what etc and you could stroke them first to check too. For instance if you had said to the non owner are they yours would you mind if my child stroked them? There would have been no misunderstanding.

Yes JRT could still have dashed across and bitten etc etc I do get that.

Attach toddler to buggy in such places and lead any interactions with adults, some of whom might not appreciate being approached by a random toddler anyway :p
 
Strange as in strangers, not as in odd. I used that word becase maresmaid had used it.

Personally I expect adults to behave in a polite fashion to children in the same way I would expect them to behave in a polite fashion to adults. I wouldn't have been asking in a significantly different way becasue I thought the 'strange' lady was the owner too.

If a stall holder at a family-friendly event (with child-centered entertainments, and where many stalls were selling items of children's clothing, toys, etc) wasn't expecting to be aproached by children they'd be in the wrong job I suspect!

Edited to add: I understood the point abt the dog interaction, I was just responding to ester's second comment around adults not wanting to be spoken to by children - beasue I'd regard an aversion to poltie children as their problem. A potential customer of any age is valuable!

In theory I could contact the stall holder now but to be clear was only asking what people would have done/said at the time. No interest in creating any difficulties for the dog itself and certainly no need for the stallholder to see a lawyer.

Intersted that noone would have taken it upon themselves to repremand (verbally or otherwise) the dog. I didn't but I did wonder if people would have suggested a loud 'no' or 'leave' etc.
 
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GirlFriday said:
Intersted that noone would have taken it upon themselves to repremand (verbally or otherwise) the dog. I didn't but I did wonder if people would have suggested a loud 'no' or 'leave' etc.
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I would probably have booted it, had there been time, but a bit like hooting the car horn, you rarely get to do it as you are too busy avoiding the situation that necessitates it.
 
Dogs generally take five seconds or less to link a behaviour with either the reward with the consequence. So doing anything outside this window wouldn't teach the dog anything, but it might make a human feel better.
Also dependent on the dog, and the reprimand, the situation could have been exacerbated or you could just teach the dog that children = bad things and get in quicker next time. That's not to say that I'm anti correction, I'm not, but the best time to tell a dog that something is a bad idea is when they are thinking about it/on the verge of it....and very few of us have that sort of timing.
 
GirlFriday said:
I wouldn't have been asking in a significantly different way becasue I thought the 'strange' lady was the owner too.

Edited to add: I understood the point abt the dog interaction, I was just responding to ester's second comment around adults not wanting to be spoken to by children - beasue I'd regard an aversion to poltie children as their problem. A potential customer of any age is valuable!
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I'm not suggesting you would have asked in a significantly different way I am suggesting that a toddler will not pick up on the nuances of a conversation that an adult will.

I'm also very clearly not talking about potential customers or the stall holder that might profit from you/have an interest in your child, because you weren't approaching a stall holder! I am talking about people like the one involved in your story who was just a person petting a dog, or could just have been a random person with their own dog. It is great that you have trained your toddler to speak to the attending adult but out in the wider world I think it is worthy of some consideration that 1) toddlers might more easily get the wrong end of the stick and 2) some attending adults might find that much more difficult than being spoken to first by the parent. Certainly in my experience is until a bit older the parent has always spoken to me first and I am much happier when that is the case and then we introduce and pat the pony/dog whatever animal I happen to be holding at the time and have a chat and if they are local they might get invited round for a proper visit if they promise to bring some carrots :p.

I don't think anyone would be intentionally rude to a toddler and don't think I suggested that :p. Just that at that age I would deem it much more appropriate for the adult to initiate any conversation. You may disagree and think that is my problem but I think it just common courtesy.
 
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Luci07 said:
there are a lot of people who haven't read the original post. Child approached what he/she thought was the owner. JRT ran to bite said child. Child was NOT petting the dog.

The owner is lucky. A complaint could have had very serious consequences for the dog. He/she is also a complacent idiot as dogs don't suddenly become aggressive but leaving a potentially tetchy/aggressive dog penned out in a public area is inviting a disaster.
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Toddler should not be able to approach a strange adult in a public place without the adult responsible for him/her being right alongside. It is not necessary to hold the child's hand all the time but one of those plastic spring-y things that fasten to child's and adult's wrists and leave hands free would be useful. I am fed up of seeing toddlers running about without adequate supervision in potentially dangerous situations.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Toddler should not be able to approach a strange adult in a public place without the adult responsible for him/her being right alongside. It is not necessary to hold the child's hand all the time but one of those plastic spring-y things that fasten to child's and adult's wrists and leave hands free would be useful. I am fed up of seeing toddlers running about without adequate supervision in potentially dangerous situations.
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Society is a wonderful thing, we were all children once you know! Do you hoot at learner drivers if they hold you up at the lights, too?
 
I had reins. I probably still could do with them :p

I actually saw a toddler in reins tonight on a tricycle when I was out with the dog and thought 'there is a very good daddy'.
 
CorvusCorax said:
I had reins. I probably still could do with them :p

I actually saw a toddler in reins tonight on a tricycle when I was out with the dog and thought 'there is a very good daddy'.
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They have a place, I couldn't judge if you would be a candidate! :-)
 
TBH, If any dog had done as described to my child the stall holder would have found themselves in a world of trouble. And yes I would have taken it as far as possible (legally) to teach the stall holder a lesson.

You should not tie dangerous or aggressive dogs anywhere where they can interact with the public at all!

We do historical re-enactment, we have a dog who's breed is authentic to the time, he is an excellent way to draw people into the camp and get them interacting with the stall holders.

He is normally tied at the front of the tent so he and the public can interact, he is however extremely friendly, prefers kids to adults, and is supervised at all times. If he is starting to become overwhelmed (very rare occurrence) I will move him to the back of the tent for a while where the public cannot get near him or interact with him at all.

A lot of children will ask before petting him but its surprising the amount of both adults and children who do not ask. If you cannot trust the dog to be non aggressive when approached like that, then it should have been left at home/in the horsebox/tent/not at a public child friendly event/tied where it could potentially bite a child passing it.

Given the location of the child in respect to the adult and dog it is not unreasonable to consider that a stressed/harried/or tired parent may have to stop with their child (to deal with a tantrum, pick up a dropped item, have a conversation with another adult etc.) within striking distance of the dog, not realise there was a dog there at all and end up with a bitten child.
 
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Pearlsasinger said:
Toddler should not be able to approach a strange adult in a public place without the adult responsible for him/her being right alongside. It is not necessary to hold the child's hand all the time but one of those plastic spring-y things that fasten to child's and adult's wrists and leave hands free would be useful. I am fed up of seeing toddlers running about without adequate supervision in potentially dangerous situations.
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Finally, someone said it! The rest of the adult population of the planet are not there to serve as a free crèche facility!
 
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