WWYD - horse will not stretch/relax in trot

DreamingIsBelieving

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I'm currently trying and failing to improve a horse's trot work on the lunge. When asked to trot his head will go up and he sticks his nose out. He usually takes a lot of encouragement with the lunge whip to get him to make the transition into trot. Once he's in trot it's usually hollow but not slow - he has a fast, powerful trot (which I don't find unusual as his walk is also quite active). But I guess the main thing that stands out to me is how stiff he seems in the head and neck - it just looks so jolting. To my untrained eye his hind leg action actually seems good (not what you'd expect to see looking just at his front end). He tracks up reasonably well and he certainly gives the impression that the power is coming from behind.
His walk, I feel, is good. He can happily stretch right down to the ground while keeping a good rhythm. It doesn't feel laboured or rushed. He always tracks up, but will regularly catch the back of his front hoof with his back hoof (it's not overreaching - there's a specific term for it but I can't remember what it's called!).
He's very green in the school and has no bend. He's 5 years old and is mostly used for pony treks and the odd lesson in the riding school. I doubt he's had any real training since being broken in.
I only lunge him in a bridle with lunge line attached. I've 'free schooled' him with no tack or line at all and it made no difference to his way of going. I've lunged him over poles which is hit and miss in the most literal sense of the word. He doesn't seem to see the point of going to the effort not to knock them in walk. In trot he'd rather crash through them than lower his head slightly to look at them.
His trotting technique doesn't look great on the lunge, but add a rider and the problems are instantly accentuated. He doesn't track up (all the power goes up instead - it's very bouncy), his head and nose go right up and his pace quickens so you feel a bit like a yo-yo. He's slightly better out hacking (similarly, he's always better lunging in the outdoor arena as opposed to the indoor). I don't ride him at trot anymore (I'm focussing on getting his lunging sorted first) but I'm not the only one who exercises him (I only see him a couple of times a week).
His conformation leaves a lot to be desired, but I don't know enough about conformation to say what effect that has on his way of going.

He got the stretching in walk thing down in his own time with no real input from me (bar praising him when he stretched, but I don't think he knows what 'good boy' means so it's much more likely he figured out on his own that stretching felt good :)).

So, I'd love to hear some thoughts. Do you think it might be a physical issue? What can I do to encourage him to stretch down, round his back and relax? If he was mine I'd be making a physio/vet appointment to rule any physical thing out but he's not mine and I think I'm going to need some convincing evidence that it is a physical issue in order to persuade The Establishment to fork out for a check up that may not even be necessary... It could just as easily be a schooling issue considering his age and inconsistent training. What would you do in my situation, faced with a horse like this?
 
I'm not usually a fan of 'gadgets' but lunging using a chambon REALLY helped my TB get the whole long and low thing; and I mean REALLY helped. They are also easy to use (rather than get myself tangled up in too many bits of rope/straps etc)!
 
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You may have a very long job ahead of you if only working him twice a week with him being used for treks/ lessons in between, i would probably hack him more, you will be able to encourage him to relax and stretch in a more pleasant environment than the arena with the benefit that you get to ride and he gets out ridden by a more competent rider than he may have on treks.
Lunging can be beneficial but in my view only as part of a complete training plan by being limited to just the twice weekly sessions any benefit will be negated by being badly ridden, or just inappropriately ridden, most of the time, he sounds very green, stiff, on his forehand, the forging or catching his heels is a sign of this, some good active hacking over varied terrain, up and down hills will really help him build up his muscles, learn to carry himself and I think would have more impact than going round in circles with a gadget on.

Ideally a physio check could be done but you can do some work on the ground to help him learn to stretch, carrot stretches are good for this as well as tummy lifts they only take a few minutes and can be done after exercise.
 
He just hasn't read the memo about how you'd like him to work on the lunge. If you want him to work in a specific way, you need to explain it to him first - he needs a bit of help to guide him in the right direction. Side reins/chambon/similar will help to give him the idea.
 
I would love to hack him out but unfortunately can only get to him in the evenings when it's dark :(. He's just started shedding though so the lighter evenings must be on their way... :)
I did try him in a chambon once and he hated it. I had it on the loosest setting (was worried he'd trip over it in walk if it was any slacker anyway...) and although it didn't seem to be visibly exerting any pressure he got very angry with it and threatened to mow me down! The problem with it was that (assuming it must have been exerting some pressure even though it looked like it wasn't) 1. he needs to actually lower his head in the first place in order to receive the release of pressure, which involves a bit of problem solving on his part... 2. He doesn't yield to poll pressure. After my failed attempt with the chambon I thought "Okay, I just need to teach him to yield to poll pressure before I try it again". I press down on his poll, waiting for him to lower his head slightly so I could release and reward. He just looks at me in a mildly bemused fashion. I would normally then try to coax him down with the added motivator of food but I've learnt that he can't focus on two things at once - the two things being 1. the food and 2. the thing he has to do to get the food. No prizes for guessing which one thing he chooses to focus all his attention on...
I do belly lifts with him (he loves having his tummy scratched too so it's a win-win situation). I tried 'carrot' stretches too. Cue him chasing me around the arena performing perfect turn-on-the-forehand and rein-back all the way down the long side in desperate attempts to reach the Mini Horselyx without having to bend his neck :D Okay, so I read rein-back is a great gymnastic exercise so it's not all bad, but it would be nice to get him to realise that what his neck does doesn't always have to correspond with what his body does - that he can use them separately!
I could try him with the chambon again. Maybe start off in-hand, manipulating it myself so that I know he can yield to it in walk before I ask for the trot. I think part of the problem before was that he didn't experience the resistance until he trotted, so it actually just encouraged him not to trot, which contradicted with what I was telling him to do - trot.
I did wonder about trying low side reins or a harbridge seen as the aids they would give would be a bit more familiar to him that those of the chambon. I chose the chambon because it's the least 'head setting' of all the 'gadgets'. I don't like using gadgets because I'd like him to develop the suppleness at his own pace, but I think I've exhausted all other options. If I could just get him to stretch once, I feel like maybe he might realise, as with the walk, that it's nicer than going round looking at the sky and tripping over things as a result!
 
Just with bridle and lunge rein I would concentrate on getting a good trot transition first, then once he is more responsive and trotting forwards try asking him to bend his head in towards you over a couple of strides, then straighten up. Don't allow him to fall in on the circle, it is just neck flexion you want. Do this every few strides around the circle so he gets the idea his neck can move in a different way. Depending how stiff he is it might take a small pull on your part, but I have found this really helps. Usually horse then won't lift its head off the floor and you have to keep the line out of the way of feet suddenly:D. Do it both reins, he may find it easier one way or other
 
I think you said you horse is five years old , this makes me think of my five year old on a lunge. My thoughts on this tend to go along two lines. The first being that he needs a back check, he could have some pain in his back, doesn't even need to be much, causing him to carry himself like this in trot. The second thought is that he may be coup high, this makes his already powerful rear end even more powerful. In order to balance himself at trot on a small circle and to keep his front end in front so to speak, his fore legs have to go really fast and this means he will draw up his head. His back end is basically overwhelming his front end. My little horse did this in the summer, very startling to ride through. Just a thought.
 
A chambon worked well with one of my horses - he was young and not stiff but would trot on the lunge with his head up and very hollow. It only took two brief sessions with the chambon for him to lower his head and neck and lift his back.
 
If you do decide to try the chambon again, it did take mine a few times to understand/ get used to it at the start of each session; I remember a few tantrums! Was worth persevering imo.
 
My horse hated any sort of bit or poll pressure on the lunge, so a bungee or side reins were out. I lunge her in a lunge cavesson and use draw reins. I put the line across her back, just behind wither, then the 2 ends run down along her girthline, and up between her chest I then connect them to the nose rings on the lunge accession. I tie a knot in the line over her back to take up any slack. This enables me to lunge her in a way that encourages her to work over her back but puts no pressure on her poll or mouth.
 
It took my old horse quite a bit of time to get stretching down in trot, but I think it took a while of correct schooling work building the right muscles and for him to feel balanced enough to do it.

I think you will struggle to get him to do it on his own, on the lunge, and with his age and work load/type I doubt he's got the muscles, balance and therefore self carriage yet.

When you're schooling him, and after a few exercises he's going well in an outline and soft, pick a level, balanced bit of the school such as the long side, or a bit of the field/road/ or basically wherever you get the chance; and whilst maintaining the contact; give the reins forward and allow him to take the bit forward and stretch down. He may only be able to so this for a few strides, and it may only be a fraction. Praise him like mad. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. I promise he will get it but it will take time.
 
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