WWYD / Need to vent

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AshTay

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I have a very beautiful 15.3hh gelding. We've had some issues in the past but over last summer/autumn things were going slowly but well but then he hurt his shoulder and had to have a break, then my mare got lami, I was ill, weather went to pot, etc etc....


So I decided to send him away for schooling to bring him back into work and get him some good education. Would give me a bit of a break and time to sort my mare out.

Away he went. All was going well, looked fab ridden, put on muscle. Had the odd "moment" but the trainer dealt with it and seemed manageable. Then we set about planning for him to come home. I went up to re-learn how to lunge him and that was fine. Then went up to ride him - and he was tense and had a few moments but I coped but then for no reason he just flipped and I came off. Had chat with trainer, agreed he was too much for me so decided to sell.

She recommended sending him to someone she knew locally who had a good reputation for finding the right homes for challenging horses. So he went there for a weeks trial. I went to see him a week later to discuss next step only to be first told how horrid he was on the ground/lunge/under saddle. Questioned this as he's always been good on ground (my non-horsey OH handles him and i'd been visiting him every week at the trainer's yard and he'd been an angel!). They eventually changed their story and said he was a good boy to handle but felt that there might be a physical reason why he would randomly flip while ridden and they didn't feel they could sell him. Fair enough - so I bought him home.

I've had him back a week and a half now. He's an angel to handle and I've been lunging him to keep his body and mind active (been in full work for ~9 weeks so pretty fit). I'm going to get the vet out the week after next when I've got some time and ask for a proper check over. The people at the second yard suggested kissing spine and he does have a very long back (which hasn't muscled up as well as the rest of him has).

I think I just needed to write this down and ask for opinions on what to suggest to the vet - he's sound on the ground and he only ever flips when ridden. He was seen by a McTimoney practitioner before he went away and was declared fine all over so I want more than just a look over. Insurance should pay up but I never trust them so don't want to leap into loads of expensive stuff straight away.

My plan is - if there's a problem and we can fix it then great and I might get my lovely ridden boy back. If there's a problem we can't fix - big pet. If there's no problem - what do I do? I'm happy to just keep him but would I be keeping him just because I can't handle him and is that fair as he's only 8 and does seem to enjoy his work 99% of the time.

Sorry - very long. No fake treats on offer but deep gratitude to all who have read and can offer advice.
 
You need to get a vet investigate the issue and take it from there .
Sometimes things are easily found sometimes not you will just have to see.
Second yard was very good to refuse to sell a horse they feel might have a physical issue.
 
Try not to worry yourself, Have the vet out and explain everything you have just said here and see what they suggest to do next!
 
Goldenstar said:
You need to get a vet investigate the issue and take it from there .
Sometimes things are easily found sometimes not you will just have to see.
Second yard was very good to refuse to sell a horse they feel might have a physical issue.
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I know. Horrid as it sounds I hope they find something because then we can work on it.
Agreed - if they hadn't been so weird about his behaviour to start with then I would have more praise for them too but my OH was there and said that it seemed like they were making out he was a monster I'd be best rid of to begin with and it was me that turned the conversation round to a physical cause and said I wanted him home. Still not sure what I make of them, tbh.
 
Hippona said:
How old is he?
Had he ever flipped before going away? What form does the flipping take?
If he's been worked inconsistently is it possible his saddle isn't fitting?
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He's 8. Yes, he's done it before - but only about 4 times (and I rode him a fair amount when I first got him) and not in the months leading up to him going away. He just sort of runs off in a panic. Not a full mad bolt but very quick and takes a while to calm down again. His "moments" are when he sort of starts like he wants to go but you have more of a warning and can ride him back down into the bridle and he gets back on with it and carries on.

Saddle was declared "ok" by physio but he did change shape a lot while at the trainers and the people at the second yard said it didn't fit and had used a different one. The saddle he had before I bought him didn't fit and he had some soreness from that and we sorted it but he didn't flip with previous owners (or couldn't - ridden by a big strong bloke). I had saddle fitted by a reputable fitter and he did flip about 2 months after that. I won't be riding him anyway but I have saddler coming out to my mare soon so will get her opinion on what's changed and how bad it might have been.
 
I think it might be quite telling that the trainer that you sent the horse to used the phrase 'challenging horses' and also very quickly the dealer has sent the horse back to you.

It might actually be that the trainer is the better person to sell this horse for you - because if they move in professional circles they are going to attract a better class of rider, who don't necessarily mind something a little 'challenging' provided it has the talent to do what they want it to do.

Good idea to get a vet check. But if the horse hasn't objected to work at the trainers I'd be suprised if there was anything wrong. But I expect the dealers realised that the horse was going to take a while to sell , which may not suite their business. Hence it coming back to you.
 
AshTay said:
I know. Horrid as it sounds I hope they find something because then we can work on it.
Agreed - if they hadn't been so weird about his behaviour to start with then I would have more praise for them too but my OH was there and said that it seemed like they were making out he was a monster I'd be best rid of to begin with and it was me that turned the conversation round to a physical cause and said I wanted him home. Still not sure what I make of them, tbh.
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Think of it from their view if they sell challenging horses they will deal with a lot of owners in denial.
 
amymay said:
I think it might be quite telling that the trainer that you sent the horse to used the phrase 'challenging horses' and also very quickly the dealer has sent the horse back to you.

It might actually be that the trainer is the better person to sell this horse for you - because if they move in professional circles they are going to attract a better class of rider, who don't necessarily mind something a little 'challenging' provided it has the talent to do what they want it to do.

Good idea to get a vet check. But if the horse hasn't objected to work at the trainers I'd be suprised if there was anything wrong. But I expect the dealers realised that the horse was going to take a while to sell , which may not suite their business. Hence it coming back to you.
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Actually "challenging" was my phrase - the trainer said "problem" :( I think he was objecting to work more than I realised at the trainers as, looking back, she never put any of her other riders on him and when I went to ride him the first time I was surprised that she put us on lunge with his head strapped down. (she did say that I rode him well and didn't cause the behaviour on that day). I'd seen him play up with her a couple of times when I went down to see him but not really badly but it did all seem to come to a head towards the end of his stay there and then he just lost the plot at the second place.

The trainer said she would struggle to sell him because she'd been in a similar situation before and had struggled to find the right buyer so had ended up using this other person and it had worked out well.

TBH, I think i'm a little bit in shock about it all as things seemed to be going so well until I rode him and we were all set with a homecoming date a week or so after that.
 
AshTay said:
I know. Horrid as it sounds I hope they find something because then we can work on it.
Agreed - if they hadn't been so weird about his behaviour to start with then I would have more praise for them too but my OH was there and said that it seemed like they were making out he was a monster I'd be best rid of to begin with and it was me that turned the conversation round to a physical cause and said I wanted him home. Still not sure what I make of them, tbh.
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I'm always suspicious when people who potentially have a financial interest in a horse start to exagerate the problems, IMO you did the best thing by bringing him home.
Yes you need the vet to check him over and asking the saddler to look at the saddle fit is also a good idea, as there could be a really obvious cause for the behaviour, especiallu if he has had ridden pain in the past.
I would also be looking at his diet and cutting out absolutely everything except hay & grass, as I assume you are letting him down, this is probably appropriate anyway.
If eventually you decide to keep him as a field ornament, I'm sure he will be just as happy chilling out being a horse as 'working', which actually doesn't seem to suit him atm.
 
Goldenstar said:
Think of it from their view if they sell challenging horses they will deal with a lot of owners in denial.
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Oh yes! And I know I've been in denial about being able to handle him but I just want to do right by him. I've ridden him a lot and he's wonderful but the fear of him doing what he does frightens me. If he did it in response to something tangible then I could understand it. I had a horse on loan who would rear if I confused him with my aids - so I had to be very careful not to and take the pressure off as soon as i felt any confusion on his part.
But this boy will school for 25 minutes and do everything asked. Then suddenly lose it when you're just walking around asking for very little. And he's got 100x worse since he's been away.
 
Does he 'flip' soon after mounting?

How is he to mount?

I would definitely get a full vet work-up done - especially if it is quite uncharacteristic of him and then at least you will know whether it is a physical issue or a mental one... Bone scans are expensive but your insurance should cover it.

What type of 'Physio' do you use... I have recently used an Osteopath for my boy and I'm really not sure it's the right treatment for him. He doesn't seem any better than before he was treated, whereas whenever I have him seen by a Chiropractor there is a noticable difference in his way of going....
 
Ah, right - bu&&3r

It would be so much better if people were just up front - wouldn't it?

At least the dealers told you like it is.

Good luck with the MOT - will be interesting to find out if there's any underlying problems, or if he's just a 'problem child'.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I'm always suspicious when people who potentially have a financial interest in a horse start to exagerate the problems, IMO you did the best thing by bringing him home.
Yes you need the vet to check him over and asking the saddler to look at the saddle fit is also a good idea, as there could be a really obvious cause for the behaviour, especiallu if he has had ridden pain in the past.
I would also be looking at his diet and cutting out absolutely everything except hay & grass, as I assume you are letting him down, this is probably appropriate anyway.
If eventually you decide to keep him as a field ornament, I'm sure he will be just as happy chilling out being a horse as 'working', which actually doesn't seem to suit him atm.
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I'm keeping him in some work at the moment but reducing his diet. I will be guided by the vet when they see him but until then want to maintain his level of muscle so she can see him as he was.

CBFan said:
Does he 'flip' soon after mounting?

How is he to mount?

I would definitely get a full vet work-up done - especially if it is quite uncharacteristic of him and then at least you will know whether it is a physical issue or a mental one... Bone scans are expensive but your insurance should cover it.

What type of 'Physio' do you use... I have recently used an Osteopath for my boy and I'm really not sure it's the right treatment for him. He doesn't seem any better than before he was treated, whereas whenever I have him seen by a Chiropractor there is a noticable difference in his way of going....
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He used to be awful to mount which I think was due to bad saddle previously but I spent hours working on that and he's actually pretty good now. When I rode him he flipped out about 15 minutes after I got on and we'd been trotting on both reins by then.
I use a McTimoney Chiropracter. Had good results with her before with my old pony.
 
Moving to a new, probably busy yard, having work he was unused to, change of diet, maybe empty stomach at times (was he living out?) new equine company - all stressors. Check for ulcers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr05hMmLCY4 I know I keep saying the same thing but it is surprising how many horses are affected due to the artificial way we keep them. I read a figure of around 70% or riding/performance horses that are affected (has to be a guestimate, no-one has been here and asked me lol) and it is higher in racehorses. Always worth a check if behaviour deteriorates IMO.
 
AshTay said:
I'm keeping him in some work at the moment but reducing his diet. I will be guided by the vet when they see him but until then want to maintain his level of muscle so she can see him as he was.

.
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I completely understand your reasoning there but having had a horse who, just like yours 'flipped' at apparently nothing, after being warmed up, I can seriously reccomend looking at diet if nothing else is found to be amiss. Vets don't always subscribe to this (although some do).
 
JillA said:
Moving to a new, probably busy yard, having work he was unused to, change of diet, maybe empty stomach at times (was he living out?) new equine company - all stressors. Check for ulcers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr05hMmLCY4 I know I keep saying the same thing but it is surprising how many horses are affected due to the artificial way we keep them. I read a figure of around 70% or riding/performance horses that are affected (has to be a guestimate, no-one has been here and asked me lol) and it is higher in racehorses. Always worth a check if behaviour deteriorates IMO.
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Pearlsasinger said:
I completely understand your reasoning there but having had a horse who, just like yours 'flipped' at apparently nothing, after being warmed up, I can seriously reccomend looking at diet if nothing else is found to be amiss. Vets don't always subscribe to this (although some do).
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I agree with this. Myself and his chiro did suspect ulcers when I first got him as he did look very tucked up and is stressy. I tried him on coligone for a week or so and there was no change but changing him from cereals to all fibre and oil did work in terms of keeping his weight on and overtime with me he did chill out. He was a donkey on the ground befiore he went away - he's not very chilled at the moment but he's not been back long. I asked vet about ulcers too and she didn't seem to think it was likely.
His diet stayed the same when he went to the trainers (except haylage instead of hay and only 1-2 hours turnout instead of 24/7 but he seemed to have adapted to that pretty well and was always very relaxed there). He's out in day and in at night at the moment to try and give him some routine.
He's on Topspec cool conditioning cube (which are supposed to be totally cereal free), speedibeet, pro-hoof, equifeast cool calm and collected (about 3 weeks now) and oil.
But I will ask (different) vet about ulcers too as well as more "mechanical" issues.
 
UPDATE:
(vet booked for next week).
I've spoken at length with one of his former owners. She met him as an unbacked 4 year old at the yard he'd come to after being bought at auction as a 3 year old (welsh cob sales - the stud that bred him shut down). She said he was very chilled and sweet and seemed ideal. She wanted to buy him and he was then backed by someone at the yard he was at. She then bought him but when she got him, he was very very nervous and stressy and she described him as "cold backed" and clearly uncomfortable when first mounted. He would do the shooting forwards thing with her and this is ultimately why she decided to sell him on to a more experienced person (she sold him to the people who had him before me).
So he's been like this since he was backed it seems :(
 
Poor boy - he's been telling everyone all the way along that something hurts and no-one's listened :(

Thank heavens you now have him home and are looking into it. Do let us know what the vet finds - my money would be on some kind of back/SI issue from his history.

Best of luck with him!
 
CAUTIOUSLY POSITIVE UPDATE:

Vet came out and found some subtle but clear (to her, I struggled to see it but could when she showed me how to look) lameness in off-hind. This could have been related to an accident he had in the trailer on the way home or something else but vet thinks it looks more long term as his muscle development was slightly uneven (he was given all-clear as being sound by his McTimoney chiro the day before he went for schooling but when she first met him over two years ago she did mention something about unlevelness behind but still saw him as sound so we thought nothing of it). It didn't improve with time and rest and over the summer he started to get very sore through his back (not ridden at all since he came home in May) so we decided to get him in to the vets for further investigation. For various reasons including gate-related injuries to another leg, he didn't go in until last week.

He had back xrays and the vet noticed a couple of places in his wither and a bit further back where the processes were close but not touching but looked abnormal. She gave a tiny amount of local anaesthetic at those 2 points and he changed from being lame and sore to being totally sound and almost enjoying having his back felt!! She's one of the most senior vets at a fairly large local equine vets and even she was astounded at the difference in him. She also scanned the ligament and saw some diruption at those points but nothing dramatic. So he's had steroid injections and the first round of shockwave therapy and can start light in-hand walk (though weather and dark nights are now against me).

So I'm quietly optimistic that this might explain his behaviour as it really does fit. Quite why the soreness through his back has only become evident recently I don't know (he had a bit of a sore back just after I bought him but it resolved with field rest) but since he came home he's been in at night and out in the day (was out 24/7 before) with haynets so I wonder whether this has exacerbated the discomfort. He now has a haybar.
 
Great that some investigation found something to work with (hopefully). Bloody Mctimoney. I'd never let one near my horse again.
 
amymay said:
Great that some investigation found something to work with (hopefully). Bloody Mctimoney. I'd never let one near my horse again.
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In all fairness - I watched her check him over before he went and i watched the vet check him over this time and he was not reacting back in March in the way he was this summer. I think this was always going to be something that needed the vet. Hindsight is wonderful, isn't it???
 
amymay said:
Great that some investigation found something to work with (hopefully). Bloody Mctimoney. I'd never let one near my horse again.
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I literally do not understand the number of posts I've seen where someone has said the prodding person said the horse was unlevel but not unsound or similar, and continued with treatment without advising to get a vet's opinion first.

I hope this does work out OP. Just a thought, but could he be much more difficult for the dealers simply because he was being worked harder, with more schooling?
 
Lolo said:
I literally do not understand the number of posts I've seen where someone has said the prodding person said the horse was unlevel but not unsound or similar, and continued with treatment without advising to get a vet's opinion first.

I hope this does work out OP. Just a thought, but could he be much more difficult for the dealers simply because he was being worked harder, with more schooling?
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I think so. He was certainly very fit when he came home and was full of himself to handle on the ground (i.e. lunging). The muscles across his back never really built up as much as I would have expected while he was away even though his neck/shoulders/quarters really did. The plan now is to (try and) do lots of long and low to really strengthen the area. I'm going to struggle to do much with him over winter due to weather/lights but am going to ask YM to lunge him for me twice a week and i'll do what I can at weekends. This time last year, he was being ridden once a week by me in walk and trot in the school for about 20 minutes and had been an angel - he really did get worse as his ridden workload was increased. I don't plan to do lots of heavy schooling with him, enough to strengthen him and then probably just hacking again as he was pretty good out.
Just to add - I did have his saddle fit checked when he came back (locally well known and respected trained fitter) and she said it was fine and there was certainly nothing obvious that could have accounted for the behaviour. Despite the dealers being adamant that it didn't fit (but they were also adamant that he was a monster to handle and had previously been sold on from a local yard as being "dangerous and not to be ridden" both of which are not true).
 
I just wanted to say that you obviously have taken your responsibility as a owner very seriously and your horse is lucky to have you. Many owners wouldn't have persevered like you have. It's very easy to be swayed by professionals as there are so many different options: chiropractors, oesteopaths, physiotherapists, Mctimony Chiropractors, massage therapists, Bowen therapists etc, etc and very hard to know which one you should use as most will have their advocates.

I know from personal experience with one of our horses; my son and I both felt there was just something not quite right although she was never lame or unable to perform. We tried numerous people including initially our vet, all of whom said there was either nothing wrong or that they had fixed her with a quick massage or manipulation each focussing on a different area. After several years we have eventually found the "right" person for her and the difference in her is amazing, I just feel bad that it took so long.

Good luck to you and your boy!
 
EventingMum said:
I just wanted to say that you obviously have taken your responsibility as a owner very seriously and your horse is lucky to have you. Many owners wouldn't have persevered like you have. It's very easy to be swayed by professionals as there are so many different options: chiropractors, oesteopaths, physiotherapists, Mctimony Chiropractors, massage therapists, Bowen therapists etc, etc and very hard to know which one you should use as most will have their advocates.

I know from personal experience with one of our horses; my son and I both felt there was just something not quite right although she was never lame or unable to perform. We tried numerous people including initially our vet, all of whom said there was either nothing wrong or that they had fixed her with a quick massage or manipulation each focussing on a different area. After several years we have eventually found the "right" person for her and the difference in her is amazing, I just feel bad that it took so long.

Good luck to you and your boy!
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Thank you - he's also very handsome and incredibly charismatic which makes it all so much easier ;) I really do love him to bits and I've said all along that there's a reason but like you say it's so hard when the symptoms are so intermittent and there's nothing obviously wrong. Sounds awful but him getting so uncomfortable despite not being ridden has been the best thing really as it gave us a clue as to where to start. It might not be the problem but for now I'm working on the assumption that it is because I need to if I'm ever going to get on him again.

What was the issue with your mare?
 
Lolo said:
I literally do not understand the number of posts I've seen where someone has said the prodding person said the horse was unlevel but not unsound or similar, and continued with treatment without advising to get a vet's opinion first.

I hope this does work out OP. Just a thought, but could he be much more difficult for wthe dealers simply because he was being worked harder, with more schooling?
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It gets me too ,
And I have seen horses with serious conditions being treated by " back people " with no reference to a vet and in one case where a horse really suffering belonging to a new owner in the end I was asked to intervene reluctantly I did , poor horse had terrible spavins .
 
Goldenstar said:
It gets me too ,
And I have seen horses with serious conditions being treated by " back people " with no reference to a vet and in one case where a horse really suffering belonging to a new owner in the end I was asked to intervene reluctantly I did , poor horse had terrible spavins .
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Because this is beginning to sound like I've blindly only ever asked "back people" to look at a clearly continuously uncomfortable horse can I please stress that whenever I've felt there was a real problem, a vet has been called. He was vetted when I bought him. He's had bruised soles and an abscess in the last two years and was seen by the vet at the time it occurred and afterwards to confirm he was sound and so he has been confirmed sound by vets on several occassions since I've had him (since the chiro commenting on some unevenness behind). I've always suspected something but there's never been enough evidence to go on as he's seemed fit and well to work and always did work quite happily - the outbursts were very sporadic and could have been attributed to other things at the time and the problem didn't get really bad until he was away at schooling and at that point the vet was my first point of call. The vet did recommend a vist from the McTimoney chiro before went in to tests because she felt a treatment might help him and also to have another professional's perspective (I take it as a good sign that the vet respects the opinion of the chiro in this case).

As I said, hindsight is a great thing and I should have trusted my instinct and shipped him off for xrays at the first hint of an issue and I truly regret that I didn't but I also don't think that at any point he has been continuously suffering when not ridden until this summer. I might not have got it 100% right but at no point have I avoided getting the vet and gone for someone cheaper (which in this case it isn't as vet exam on zone day is the same price as a call out from the chiro).

i actually don't call the chiro if I think there's a problem - I call the vet. But my horses have always had regular check-ups and if anything serious had been raised I would have called the vet.
 
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