ester
Not slacking multitasking
I think only one person has done that, and it is usually pretty predictable that they do.
WWYD? - Three trusted professionals with three different opinions
- Thread starter PaulnasherryRocky
- Start date
PaulnasherryRocky
Well-Known Member
I completely agree, but I like to get an idea of everyone's experiences to build as much knowledge as I can - I've learnt a lot about nutrition already from this post alone which even if it doesn't fix his feet can only be beneficial. I think like with lots of information on the internet and especially social media - listen to what everyone has to say and create your own ideas from it.
My farrier and vet have discussed my horse between them and have now come up with a plan - my farrier is coming tomorrow morning to sort that out - so that's one worry less at the moment and I'm happy with the team I've got looking in to it all
As always - thanks very much for everyone's advice, it really has calmed me down a bit!
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
I would like to clarify that my posts were not written to make the OP go against her Vet's advice. All I wanted to do was to give an example of a horse that had been declared unable to be unshod/BF by a fully trained professional Farrier, that actually was able to be unshod/BF and was taken down that route by a different Farrier and Vet working together.
ETA - I should note that two other Vets had seen her before the one that took her BF. I got through quite a few opinions on the way until I found a team that worked for this specific horse.
ETA - I should note that two other Vets had seen her before the one that took her BF. I got through quite a few opinions on the way until I found a team that worked for this specific horse.
Landcruiser
Well-Known Member
Another here that has a 10 years and counting barefoot and sound horse, who's previous owner was told by a good farrier that he could never go barefoot. 100% wrong, he was sound on all surfaces straight out of shoes (he'd been well shod). I have also been asked by (previous)vets why I don't shoe my horses. Er - why would I? If they need more protection I use boots.
I think there is a serious failing in the training of many equine vets regarding barefoot management, and the disadvantages of metal shoes (and "remedial shoes"). Vets can be wrong/misguided/lack experience of alternatives. It is a very good idea to get as much knowledge as possible for yourself as the OP is doing. Question the professionals. The fact that they don't agree goes to show that there are different ways, different ideas. I would always want to work WITH the horse as far as possible - 12 weeks box rest and wedge shoes is not a way I would ever consider for a slightly lame horse - the disadvantages of this for the horse far outweigh any perceived benefits.
I think there is a serious failing in the training of many equine vets regarding barefoot management, and the disadvantages of metal shoes (and "remedial shoes"). Vets can be wrong/misguided/lack experience of alternatives. It is a very good idea to get as much knowledge as possible for yourself as the OP is doing. Question the professionals. The fact that they don't agree goes to show that there are different ways, different ideas. I would always want to work WITH the horse as far as possible - 12 weeks box rest and wedge shoes is not a way I would ever consider for a slightly lame horse - the disadvantages of this for the horse far outweigh any perceived benefits.
PaulnasherryRocky
Well-Known Member
Wills_91 - you were right! thank you very much for your comment as I've just called my insurance and they've said I am definitely covered for MRI, so I can book in asap.
Wishful thinking if they can get me a slot tomorrow, but early next week would be great...
SILVER LINING
New User
i would put him in the small paddock until the MRI scan, then follow the advice given once you have the results. Good luck
ester
Not slacking multitasking
good news 
My vet had seen a couple of navicular cases go to rockley said, I asked if he would do anything more medically and whether his feet now looked much better in the bar shoes - no and yes (but he was still lame) 'I don't know with regards to his diagnosis so it's up to you, if you are keen carry on'.
Farrier said he'd like to try wedges (vet said no) up to you if you want to take them off but I know nothing about how it is supposed to work so probably best to get someone else on board. Which I did.
My vet had seen a couple of navicular cases go to rockley said, I asked if he would do anything more medically and whether his feet now looked much better in the bar shoes - no and yes (but he was still lame) 'I don't know with regards to his diagnosis so it's up to you, if you are keen carry on'.
Farrier said he'd like to try wedges (vet said no) up to you if you want to take them off but I know nothing about how it is supposed to work so probably best to get someone else on board. Which I did.
PoppyAnderson
Well-Known Member
That'll be me then 😠I'd be quite happy to bet a sizeable sum of money that whatever the diagnostics are, the best course of action is barefoot. Sadly, the owner will probably go through all the time, expense and heartbreak of boxrest and remedial shoeing first before arriving at the same conclusion.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I understand your point, but I have seen too many horses fail to recover when the owner follows conventional vet and farriery advice, and end up either dead or in a last chance saloon barefoot rehab attempt after months or years of lameness. I'm unaware of any condition except a bone break inside the foot which is better off with a shoe to fix it.
Aside from bone breaks and bone spurs, the recovery rate to full work with barefoot rehabs radically exceeds that from remedial shoeing and medication, no matter what the detailed diagnosis was to begin with. It isn't actually necessary to know which structures have been damaged for a barefoot rehab to work, since all it does is create a healthy foot balanced to the horse.
There is no danger involved in creating a strong foot balanced to the horses leg.
There is NO SCIENCE for the vet to have seen to show that remedial shoeing and medication is the most effective form of treatment. What studies there have been were small and lacked basic scientific rigour and pre date the current awareness of what navicular syndrome actually usually consists of, ie soft tissue injury.
..
PaulnasherryRocky
Well-Known Member
No MRIs available for this rest of this month sadly ... I'm becoming increasingly worried about the box rest with in hand walks. He is usually a very calm, laid back kind of guy, because he is usually out 24/7. Judging by the star jumps he was doing at the end of the lead rope yesterday I think it will do more harm than good.
More discussions with vet needed I think...
More discussions with vet needed I think...
be positive
Well-Known Member
I would look at the options for MRI, there are several practices with them in the SW that may have a gap and getting the referral should not be an issue, costs vary as well so it can be worth shopping around even if the insurance is paying. My vets sent me to a practice for MRI which was not the nearest, the next time I was looking at having one done I did more research to find somewhere as I would not have let a horse go to the place my other horse went and found a nearer and less expensive option.
PaulnasherryRocky
Well-Known Member
Thanks, we have booked in for the 8th at the RVC which is our usual practice, but will see if I can find any sooner as 3 weeks is a long old wait... maybe if I'm lucky he will miraculously be sound by then! (doubtful haha)
sport horse
Well-Known Member
Chiltern Equine have an MRI at Winkfield. If RVC are your usual practice that would not be too far. Otherwise there must be at least one in Newmarket?
PaulnasherryRocky
Well-Known Member
I've found a website that shows you were all of the equine MRI places are and have left them a message, hopefully something will come back from that. Seeing as insurance only pays out for 52 weeks after the initial lameness, I want an actual diagnosis asap!
PaulnasherryRocky
Well-Known Member
Be positive - So grateful for your comment - just got an MRI booked in for Tuesday next week at Chiltern!
sport horse
Well-Known Member
Thats great - good luck.
sport horse
Well-Known Member
Good luck today - hope all goes well and that in due course you get a complete diagnosis tha enables you and your vet/farrier to make a future plan.
Michen
Well-Known Member
If you are in Hampshire or surrounding counties Chris Tuffnel would be your man for this. Works very closely with Nic and a truly superb vet.
PaulnasherryRocky
Well-Known Member
Feeling a bit stupid today - the "what to do before an MRI" forms only came through my door yesterday, only just read them this morning and the last line says please make sure your horse has all its shoes on on arrival...we only have 3/4 on since having the x-rays.
Have called the vet and he has said just come anyway, I just feel like a massive idiot
Everyone kept saying no point putting them back on as they need to come off for the MRI anyway - I need to stop listening to everyone I think!
Have called the vet and he has said just come anyway, I just feel like a massive idiot
Everyone kept saying no point putting them back on as they need to come off for the MRI anyway - I need to stop listening to everyone I think!
criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
The RVC have keep shoes on for visits on a lot of their lleaflets. What they don't want is a horse that is used to being shod, turning up for diagnostics which involve trotting up,lunging etc and not being able to see what is gonig on due to the horse not being used to working without shoes.
When mine went in - ex rockley horse being investigated for what turned out to a shoulder issue - I spoke to my referring vet and he said don't worry. When I got there the consultant didn't even know the thing about shoes was on the leaflet and said don't worry. But that was a horse who had been happily working barefoot for 2 years.
If they are just doing an MRI, then it won't be a proiblem. If they are planning on trotting up and assessing the lameness prior and your horse is used to being shod then he may well need a shoe or possibly a boot to get a true picture.
When he had an MRI, it was before the RVC had their own and we were referred to Bell equine. They requested shoes be removed.
When mine went in - ex rockley horse being investigated for what turned out to a shoulder issue - I spoke to my referring vet and he said don't worry. When I got there the consultant didn't even know the thing about shoes was on the leaflet and said don't worry. But that was a horse who had been happily working barefoot for 2 years.
If they are just doing an MRI, then it won't be a proiblem. If they are planning on trotting up and assessing the lameness prior and your horse is used to being shod then he may well need a shoe or possibly a boot to get a true picture.
When he had an MRI, it was before the RVC had their own and we were referred to Bell equine. They requested shoes be removed.
PaulnasherryRocky
Well-Known Member
Just had a call from the vet, they said they didn't find much on the MRI (though to me it sounds like they did!)
Apparently he has some arthritis, some navicular changes and some collateral ligament changes - they are going to do the coffin joint nerve block and then decide a course of action after that (tomorrow).
So in the list of things that could have possibly been wrong, he has all of them...
Thanks for all of your advice and support, hopefully its just a minor case of all three and I can start managing it early on, I don't know much more than that at the moment - but will update when I can!
Apparently he has some arthritis, some navicular changes and some collateral ligament changes - they are going to do the coffin joint nerve block and then decide a course of action after that (tomorrow).
So in the list of things that could have possibly been wrong, he has all of them...
Thanks for all of your advice and support, hopefully its just a minor case of all three and I can start managing it early on, I don't know much more than that at the moment - but will update when I can!
sbloom
Well-Known Member
That does sound like a classic barefoot rehab possibility, they are all related but all can be improved or even fixed, from anecdotal evidence, good luck.
PaulnasherryRocky
Well-Known Member
Rocky is home now, he came up sound after the coffin joint nerve block. The vet has said he's allowed out in a small paddock instead of box rest for 3 weeks, then reassess lameness and decide on if we want steroid injections.
He's having his normal shoes with some inside lateral support until the ligament is better - now I need to start looking up rehab programmes!
That's the plan for now anyway.
I am so glad I got the MRI done, as it means we have caught arthritis and navicular changes early on, so can manage them - rather than me continuing working the way we always did, and him doing some serious damage before we found out. I can keep this in mind for all of our future work, so no more jumping - we might even start our dressage career! (not. i'm pretty useless at that!)
He's having his normal shoes with some inside lateral support until the ligament is better - now I need to start looking up rehab programmes!
That's the plan for now anyway.
I am so glad I got the MRI done, as it means we have caught arthritis and navicular changes early on, so can manage them - rather than me continuing working the way we always did, and him doing some serious damage before we found out. I can keep this in mind for all of our future work, so no more jumping - we might even start our dressage career! (not. i'm pretty useless at that!)
sport horse
Well-Known Member
So glad you have a proper diagnosis - it is always worth knowing exactly what you are dealing with. Good too that the vets have a plan that you can manage without too much stress. Good luck and keep us updated.
PaulnasherryRocky
Well-Known Member
Well rehab is going terribly....we had a horse come down with EHV4 and Strep-Zoo, so it's been a case of no horses on the yard, no horses to leave or come to the yard, no horses to leave the field that they are currently in!
Lucky it's been contained to just that horse, symptoms have now gone so continuing 2 more weeks of isolation, re-swabbing to check they aren't shedding still, and THEN we can make a start with our in hand walks.
@ester
I bought equimins, is there a trick on getting them to eat it? we introduced slowly, but every time we get up to the one scoop amount (for his body weight he is meant to have 2 scoops) he point blank refuses to eat any of his dinner. Trying applejuice in feed tonight, but if any one else has ideas on getting it in to him without adding sugar, that would be great!
Feed now consists of:
-Equimins (pellets)
-2 Tsp Salt
-Agrobs Chaff
-Feedmark Best Flex (will move on to science supplements when i run out of that)
-1 Tbsp Cinnamon
-handful of Emerald Green Grass chop (just to help hide the taste of the equimins!)
-In winter I will add Agrobs futura - he is too fat to feed any more at the moment!
For now, he has gone feral, he looks like hes about to explode (very good (bad for me) grass, no work, muzzle is in the post)
Lucky it's been contained to just that horse, symptoms have now gone so continuing 2 more weeks of isolation, re-swabbing to check they aren't shedding still, and THEN we can make a start with our in hand walks.
@ester
I bought equimins, is there a trick on getting them to eat it? we introduced slowly, but every time we get up to the one scoop amount (for his body weight he is meant to have 2 scoops) he point blank refuses to eat any of his dinner. Trying applejuice in feed tonight, but if any one else has ideas on getting it in to him without adding sugar, that would be great!
Feed now consists of:
-Equimins (pellets)
-2 Tsp Salt
-Agrobs Chaff
-Feedmark Best Flex (will move on to science supplements when i run out of that)
-1 Tbsp Cinnamon
-handful of Emerald Green Grass chop (just to help hide the taste of the equimins!)
-In winter I will add Agrobs futura - he is too fat to feed any more at the moment!
For now, he has gone feral, he looks like hes about to explode (very good (bad for me) grass, no work, muzzle is in the post)
SEL
Well-Known Member
You are having a tough time! FWIW I know a few who have turned their noses up at the pellets but are ok with powder - not much use when you have pellets.
Anyone on the yard got a bit of copra you can have? I can hide anything in a tablespoon of that.
Anyone on the yard got a bit of copra you can have? I can hide anything in a tablespoon of that.
ITPersonnage
Well-Known Member
I second the copra and/or dried spearmint, irresistible mix according to my neddy..
Leo Walker
Well-Known Member
Yup, mine eats the powder and hates the pellets!
PaulnasherryRocky
Well-Known Member
Thanks! Applejuice didn't work, so i will see if I can borrow some copra and give that a go! It probably doesn't help that he is absolutely stuffed full with grass, hoping his Ultimate Muzzle arrives today.
I think it's a mixture in that he doesn't like the cinnamon either, but apparently its good for regulating insulin and therefore decreasing lami risk? (correct me if that's wrong!)
I think it's a mixture in that he doesn't like the cinnamon either, but apparently its good for regulating insulin and therefore decreasing lami risk? (correct me if that's wrong!)
ester
Not slacking multitasking
sorry the tags on here don't often work. Mine is fussy. We were fine with pellets then I had to switch to powder for a couple of years and now he gets pellets again.
that cinnamon info is old and it isn't routinely suggested now so definitely try without as I don't think I'd have much chance of mine eating it either. I have to be a bit careful with salt addition too. I did try a lot of things when we very first started and were mixing powders- apple cider vinegar/finely grated carrot/spearmint but was successful with none! I think in a lot of ways he just had to get used to things not being sweet!
which agrobs are you using? aspero? That was a bit of a revelation for us but apparently pure feeds was even better so I did used to steal some of that from a friend when he needed antibiotics!
that cinnamon info is old and it isn't routinely suggested now so definitely try without as I don't think I'd have much chance of mine eating it either. I have to be a bit careful with salt addition too. I did try a lot of things when we very first started and were mixing powders- apple cider vinegar/finely grated carrot/spearmint but was successful with none! I think in a lot of ways he just had to get used to things not being sweet!
which agrobs are you using? aspero? That was a bit of a revelation for us but apparently pure feeds was even better so I did used to steal some of that from a friend when he needed antibiotics!