WWYD ?

[Goldenstar]

Yesterday I was walking the dogs two bitches 10 and 12 and the pup nearly eight months .
It was the first time I had taken him out with the girls off our place to the local forest I went at a quiet time .
All had gone well he had sat beside the girls kept eye contact with me while several dogs passed ,we had done several sits at a distance with me going to him and some with recall .
He had listened to me and not copied the girls several times I was chuffed .
As we neared home we saw a man with a collie approaching but the girls into a sit and sat him with me between him and the track the owner passed and the dog great I thought I was just about to continue walking when the collie came back it jumped all over the girls by this time I had hold off the pup and tried to maintain Eye contact and control of him he was of course interested in the other dog but stayed sitting and did not try to get away .
The coolie then jumped on me from behind as I was slightly lower than the track he knocked me down on to my dog .
I was frightened by this as being on the ground between four dogs one a stranger was not nice and one of the girls started to growl .
At this point the owner arrived and had to literally drag off his fool of a dog , it was a fool not nasty .
He mumbled something sorry I assume and left me on the ground still hanging onto my youngster who was looking a bit nervous .and the girls were a bit worried
I think they had been a bit conflicted about what they should have done when the dog knocked me down .
He met a strange dog today and was his usual friendly self but I feel a bit nervous about walking him now .
On top of that the dog knocked me onto my reconstructed knee ( which can't kneel ) which is now swollen .
What could I have done differently .

 

[Bosworth]

Sounds to me like the pup coped well, and you should be proud of him. Just keep on doing what youve done and dont over think the issue. The girls are old enough to cope and the pup did nothing wrong. Dont get too precious, with him, let him meet dogs while you are out and if they are friendly reward him for behaving by allowing him to have a real good game with the new dog. Owners getting too precious often cause their dogs to become fear aggressive, luckily your boy seems to be well adjusted.

 

[Goldenstar]

It's hard because he's to work and not allowed to play with strangers because of this but I let play with the girls and other dogs here but when he's off the place we don't let him ,it's the first time I had an issue and the first time I had the girls there once I was on the ground well half on the ground half on the pup ( which can't have been nice for him as I am not a feather weight )I could not do anything at all .
It happened much quicker than it reads .

 

[Orca]

I would have been very concerned to be on the ground with a past three of mine and a strange dog who had just knocked me down - all of your dogs restraint and responsiveness to you under those circumstances is admirable.

There isn't much else you could have done. Whatever you did do was enough to control the situation when it went wrong. Your dogs read you and didn't react (and I think a growl under the circumstances is completely understandable!).

Accidents happen sometimes. I would have struggled not to be furious at the owner of the fool dog (allowing your dog to barrel someone over is never a good idea, particularly someone with three dogs!) and I suppose that is the risk involved with public walks. To a certain extent, we are reliant on the common sense and decency of others and unfortunately, neither is always apparent.

You did what you could and it sounds as though what you did worked, if he has encountered dogs since without concern.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I dong think yiu coikc havd done anything.

You should be proud of your dogs, one of my collies went for another person's dog who went to jump up at me. He growled and snapped and wouldn't let it near.

 

[Haydn]

I have thought long and hard before replying to this thread, I hope you don't think I'm being over critical or harsh, I'm just (hopefully) being realistic.

You took your dogs for a walk in a public place where ordinary owners with their pet dogs walk, I assume your dogs were off their leads. You have already said you kept an eye on the pup when other dogs passed, presumably because you were afraid that the pup would do exactly what the collie did, break and greet/jump all over the other dog.

Ok the temptation was too much for the collie and it ran over to your dogs, maybe it was over excited in trying to engage your dogs in a game of chase. You say you grabbed the pup, presumably to stop it breaking and playing with the other dog, because of your knee issue did you bend at the waist, putting you in a very unstable position, was the pup struggling as well. The collie in its excitement bumped into you, probably accidently and knocked you over.

You say the pup is to be trained as a working dog and isn't allowed to play with other dogs- sorry did the collie or its owner know that.

You ask 'What could I have done differently' Simple don't take your dogs for a walk where ordinary mortal dog walkers with ordinary dogs go. Many owners think their dogs have every right to go and greet other dogs they see off the lead and maybe have a game of chase.

As I said at the beginning I apologise if I seem harsh, it isn't meant to be- I am just writing what I see happening almost every time I take Fynn for a walk in a public place.

 

[Goldenstar]

You are harsh .
Of course I had to keep eye contact with the pup he's seven months not seven years old.
I don't see want help leads would have been any help my bitches stayed sitting until they where jumped upon at high speed and my pup never engaged with the collie at all .
The collie of course should not be off the leash in public I know I can't control that its clearly not safe and will end up being bitten if it behaves like that on a regular basis .
I came for ideas about what I might have done differently .
Constructive help ,like body positioning could I have done that differently
it's amusing you think that the person whose dogs stayed with her and was injured should stay home .
My dogs where not roaming around they put in a sit off the track there's no way any owner could interpret that as an invitation for the dogs to play .
I'm appalled that you think a dog owner has the right to let it's pet run back to dogs taken off the track to sit as it passed because dogs like to play .
I never allow my dogs to play with strange dogs ever the older ones know they are ignore them .

ETA I find your comment about ordinary mortals downright rude .

 

[Alec Swan]

Sounds to me like the pup coped well, ……...

Don't get too precious, with him, …….. .

This, put it behind you and best foot forward. Next time you're out, carry a stick. If a dog of mine dared to behave as the collie did, I'd be grateful for someone teaching it some manners, assuming that I hadn't!

Alec.

 

[amandaco2]

You are harsh .
Of course I had to keep eye contact with the pup he's seven months not seven years old.
I don't see want help leads would have been any help my bitches stayed sitting until they where jumped upon at high speed and my pup never engaged with the collie at all .
The collie of course should not be off the leash in public I know I can't control that its clearly not safe and will end up being bitten if it behaves like that on a regular basis .
I came for ideas about what I might have done differently .
Constructive help ,like body positioning could I have done that differently
it's amusing you think that the person whose dogs stayed with her and was injured should stay home .
My dogs where not roaming around they put in a sit off the track there's no way any owner could interpret that as an invitation for the dogs to play .
I'm appalled that you think a dog owner has the right to let it's pet run back to dogs taken off the track to sit as it passed because dogs like to play .
I never allow my dogs to play with strange dogs ever the older ones know they are ignore them .

ETA I find your comment about ordinary mortals downright rude .

Ditto. The persons who's dog was out of control off its lead should be the one at home! Unless the dogs recall is great it shouldn't be off the lead. Yours sound like they behaved amazingly.

 

[Haydn]

My apologies you have taken what I said as criticism of you or your dogs. At no point did I suggest you stay at home with them. I was not trying to excuse or condone the actions of the collie or its owner. All I was trying to say was not all owners have or even train to your level of control and walking in a public place you will inevitably meet these people and their dogs. I am willing to bet that the owner of the dog did not even consider that it was out of control, he probably thought it was a normal thing dogs did when they meet.

Anyway I will remove my subscription to this thread and take no further part in it. My apology for causing offence.

 

[fankino04]

Whilst I understand why you and many others would think the collie owner is in the wrong for not having enough control of their dog, I do have to agree with haydn that if you walk your dogs off lead in a public place then you can't be surprised when another off lead friendly dog comes over to play. I for one only put my guys back on the lead if the other dog is on a lead, they are both friendly and therefore I see no harm in them socialising with other friendly dogs . I think the situation was a great test for your dogs and they clearly passed with flying colours but if you don't want them tested in that way then don't walk in public places.

 

[Goldenstar]

My apologies you have taken what I said as criticism of you or your dogs. At no point did I suggest you stay at home with them. I was not trying to excuse or condone the actions of the collie or its owner. All I was trying to say was not all owners have or even train to your level of control and walking in a public place you will inevitably meet these people and their dogs. I am willing to bet that the owner of the dog did not even consider that it was out of control, he probably thought it was a normal thing dogs did when they meet.

Anyway I will remove my subscription to this thread and take no further part in it. My apology for causing offence.

You really think that some dogs owners think it's normal and ok for there dog to knock over a middle aged women splatt half onto the ground half squashing her dog .I do take on board the comment from Bosworth about being precious I think it was his first big walk with the girls and I wanted it to be perfect .
However hitting the grit has given me a fright .
I have however decided next time I will face the road and kick anything that comes near me very firmly .

 

[Luci07]

You see - I DO think a dog that runs back to other dogs is in the wrong. Your dogs were off lead, but weren't reacting so what would have happened if you had had your dogs on the lead - the outcome would have been no different. I am not blameless, I have had my dog shoot back when out hacking and I "had" her next to my horse going past strange dogs. Luckily on that occasion, apart from surprising the leonburger pup in question there was no issue but it taught me that if my dog showed any interest I had to "keep" her with me till out of sight. Sorry you were hurt and had an unpleasant scare.

 

[Clodagh]

We have working labs and I never even have a lead with me, so if I meet another dog I have to hold eye contact with the young one, if the other dog runs around her, we are getting there but she does love to play.
(I would say that you will probably find he works out not to play when working as once I put the game bag on she won't even let anyone stroke her and won't speak to another dog, bar a polite 'hi'.).
I would carry a big stick and I would have hit the collie very hard, you are only a relative youngster (I think you are roughly the same age as me!), what if it had flattened an elderly lady who was very frail, it needs to learn, as does its owner.
My son was squashed by an out of control collie when he was about 5 or 6, I thought it had gone for him but actually it was trying to lick his face, it was terrfying for me and him. Prior to that it had knocked over my mother-in-law. My husband managed to catch up with the owner and she hasn't walked on a farm footpath since!
Good luck, really most dogs are OK it is the rampant few that give all off lead dogs a bad name.

 

[Fellewell]

I know you shouldn't have to but often it's a case of reading other dogs at a distance and either evade or block as you were trying to do. I should imagine your bitch growled because the collie leapt on you from behind. This is never acceptable and you were right to feel threatened, as was she.
You have every right to train your dogs in public. How else can they learn if not with distraction. From what you say it was blatantly obvious you were training and the other owner had a responsibility to you to keep his distance with his out of control dog. I believe the laws to govern this have been tightened recently.
Some trainers wear hi vis to ask owners politely to keep their distance while training. Again, I know you shouldn't have to.
I hope your knee is ok. I'm sure your pup will be fine.

 

[Goldenstar]

I thank you all for your comments .
I took him out alone today and he was great .
He's a really very good pup or young dog as I should really call him .
The truth is it's the first time I have tried to train a gun dog and I am overwhelmed with advice .
Don't let him play .don't let him bark , don't let him go away from you .dont let him squeak .it goes on and on.
All my OH's shooting friends with dogs are so keen to help I think my head will explode .
I will love him even if he's useless but it would be fun if he took to it .

 

[Clodagh]

This young one is the first I have trained myself. I was asured by trials people she would be useless as she is a pet, plays tug of war with the other dogs, walks not to heel (when I say so) etc., etc.
Now at the end of her first season she gets sent for the difficult birds and is the best dog on the shoot. They are cleverer than a lot of people give them credit for.

 

[Goldenstar]

This young one is the first I have trained myself. I was asured by trials people she would be useless as she is a pet, plays tug of war with the other dogs, walks not to heel (when I say so) etc., etc.
Now at the end of her first season she gets sent for the difficult birds and is the best dog on the shoot. They are cleverer than a lot of people give them credit for.

This is great to hear .
Because I have been hearing all these things .
I let mine be a total pet at home although I restrict retrieving games which I find hard because he loves it .
Thank you for posting .

 

[Alec Swan]

……..
The truth is it's the first time I have tried to train a gun dog and I am overwhelmed with advice .
Don't let him play .don't let him bark , don't let him go away from you .dont let him squeak .it goes on and on.
…….. .

Yes, advice is often offered! The best way to prevent the cardinal sins is to engineer a situation where he won't err. Not always or so easily done!

……..
…….. I restrict retrieving games which I find hard because he loves it .
…….. .

'Restricting' retrieving is the best way of keeping a puppy sharp and focused. The ideal is when dogs see their duties as a privilege.

Alec.

 

[Chiffy]

I am so sorry you had a bad experience and I do think the collie owner was in the wrong but from your original post I did think it was quite sad that your pup was not allowed a little meet and greet if you had assessed a friendly dog.
I understand a bit more from your later post that you are being bombarded with advice and it can be confusing. I remember when I had my first retriever being told to never let her play tug as it would ruin her soft mouth and she wouldn't give up game. I was paranoid about it but while not encouraged, the odd thing that has happened hasn't made a jot of difference when they are working. I agree with Clodagh that they learn to differentiate between working mode and playtime.
For what it's worth, my two flatcoats off lead on a walk are allowed to meet other dogs, greet even have a little play and then they leave and carry on with me. I try to assess a dog approaching, if it's on a lead, I call mine to heel or put on a lead. If the person approaching sees me and leaves their dog loose, I leave mine loose too. My dogs ar completely non aggressive and I have never had a strange dog attack.
Best of luck with your pup, remember to enjoy and have fun as well as work.

 

[gunnergundog]

There are a million ways to skin a cat and even more ways to train a gundog! A bit like riding, with time you pick and choose the elements from the various experts that sit well with you and suit the personality and temperament of both yourself and the pup in front of you. (What works for one won't necessarily work for another.)

Unfortunately, when walking in public places unruly dogs are an increasing problem - a personal bugbear of mine as I have a couple of golden oldies that really can do without being jumped on/mugged etc whilst accompanied by the shout of 'he only wants to play' from at least 100 yards away. As others have advised, carry your beating stick or maybe your hunting whip. Accustom your own dogs to the sound of the crack and then use it as the offender approaches. Use your body language to appear bigger than you are/more intimidating etc.

Do your older two bitches still work? I ask as I have one bitch that I use as the pack 'defender' when I have the oldies out if necessary. She has never really worked for various reasons and is quite alpha but a very good judge of character. I can send her to intercept something approaching that is out of control and she will either see it off or engage it in play/chase until such time as the owner turns up. Just a thought if one of your older bitches is of a suitable type. I usually also carry a spare leash with me and it has been known for an interloper to be caught up and marched back to the owner - along with my thoughts on its behaviour - or even to be tied up.

Also, I teach mine a 'go play' command. If in a public area and I have a young pup I like it to socialise outside its own pack, but it must do it on my terms. It's a good way of testing recall too! As someone else has said, dogs soon learn to pick up the clues as to what is going on and how they must behave from what we wear/carry etc. Slip leads plus game bag and we're working/training, flat collars and we're in pet mode, harness and we're tracking etc etc.

Enjoy your pup, ignore the idiots out there......sometimes they only respond (sadly) to a rather unladylike gobfull! However, if that's what it takes to get the message across to keep out of control Fido on a leash, then so be it!

 

[Chiffy]

Ooh brill post gunnergundog!
Love the 'marching back on the lead bit and also like that you let them socialise and play on your terms.
We used to do this at training classes, both obedience and gun dog. We would have a break from an exercise with pups and allow a little play, then on command you would call your dog away back to you. It was invaluable for later dog walking and interaction.

 

[Peter7917]

I would be absolutely mortified if one of my dogs knocked someone over!!

And I disagree to an extent about allowing sociable dogs to meet. How do you know they are sociable? All of my dogs are off lead, all stay with me. They don't buggar off to see other dogs. My collie likes her space and she will send any random dog that approaches us on his way. She won't hurt another dog but she will growl and chase them off. I have no problem with this. Just because my dogs are off lead, that's not an invitation. Plus it's crap for training, nothing more annoying than putting a youngster in a sit, teaching them to stay to have it ruined by some prats over friendly Labrador bowling over.

That said there are occasions that dogs meeting are inevitable. There is a woman that walks in a local enclusure, the tracks are narrow so when you meet other dogs you have little choice but to let them say hello. She goes bat s*** crazy every time saying her dog is scared of other dogs. Why she walks it in an area with such a large amount of dog walkers in extremely close proximity is beyond me

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

It sounds as if your pup is doing very well with his training.

The only thing you could have done differently,imo,and I certainly would have done - is give the other dog's owner a blistering mouthful for allowing his dog to knock you over - disgraceful!