WWYD

[Barton Bounty]

Buyer knew from the get go that I did not want a loan/lwvtb and that I wanted the horse sold.

I asked them to send me date for final payment instalment in a bill of sale. This turned into basically a BHS loan agreement where buyer then typed into it…non - refundable deposit and the payments.

With them not being able to then come up with the cash before he left me, the sale was then cancelled by me…due to this they think they can have their deposit back and have asked for it twice now.

Time to stop being so NICE!!

 

[nagblagger]

They breached the contract by not coming up with the first instalment, as in the terms of the payment agreement, therefore deposit is non refundable.
You only cancelled the sale because of this breach which they are totally responsible for.

 

[Time for Tea]

OP I think you've had a lucky escape and that the chances of you ever being paid for the horse were slim to zero.
.

I agree with this. A narrow escape.

 

[paddy555]

they must have known when agreeing to the terms of sale ie payment plan that they wouldn't be able to make the first payment now when taking the horse so basically you were misled and for that reason I wouldn't give it back.

I would write it down for them detailing the terms of the sale, what they failed on so the sale couldn't go ahead and that the deposit is not refundable.
Point out it was made clear at the time that the deposit was not refundable and indeed they detailed "not refundable" in the agreement so this point was agreed by both sides..

Add that you have incurred additional expenses ie livery etc etc and that you have missed opportunities with other buyers as when you took the deposit you withdrew it from sale. You now have to start advertising etc all over again yet it must have been clear to them that they could not fund the 1st payment on time. .
If they pursue it then they will have to detail the exact grounds they believe the deposit is refundable. ie proper grounds not moaning. Otherwise forget them.

Be very grateful this has gone wrong now. Otherwise you would have been posting in Jan that you couldn't get your money but they had the horse and what to do. Alternatively they would have sent the horse back after a suitable while (in some state or other) as it couldn't do what it should and they didn't want it anymore.

 

[Lois Lame]

So someone came to buy one of my horses and sent a deposit (non refundable).

They asked for a payment plan which I accepted (as I know this person) expecting the first payment to be made before the horse left me (he was to leave today). It was discussed at the time that it was a sale and not a loan or lwvtb and that I needed some form of first payment (not just deposit) before he left.

Yesterday this person said they would only pay first payment in Jan and second payment in April which I said absolutely not to. They then said they would pay full monies in Jan, again I said absolutely not.
They said they cannot afford to pay anything before he leaves today.
I said well I have paid livery for October so horse can stay whilst you come up with cash. Buyer said they won’t have cash before Jan.

So sale was cancelled and buyer wants deposit back.

Where do I stand. I’ve been throughly messed around, put other buyers off, yard owner had viewings for the stable today which she had to cancel (she was trying to help me out so she could refund me the months notice if that makes sense), so I’ve messed her around.
Do I be nice and give deposit back or keep it?

Aka, what would you do?

I think this means that really you should return the deposit. What you expected to happen isn't the same thing as being something firm and understood by both parties.

 

[Lois Lame]

An agreement does not have to be in writing to be a legally enforceable contract.
.

True, but there wasn't a meeting of the minds, by the sound of it. And that's a problem.

 

[Fred66]

Buyer knew from the get go that I did not want a loan/lwvtb and that I wanted the horse sold.

I asked them to send me date for final payment instalment in a bill of sale. This turned into basically a BHS loan agreement where buyer then typed into it…non - refundable deposit and the payments.

With them not being able to then come up with the cash before he left me, the sale was then cancelled by me…due to this they think they can have their deposit back and have asked for it twice now.

The response to them should be that you did not break the contract they did. That they completed the paperwork stating non refundable deposit and that you are complying.

 

[ycbm]

I think this means that really you should return the deposit. What you expected to happen isn't the same thing as being something firm and understood by both parties.

You're reading something completely different from me.

Buyer asked for a payment plan.

Payment plan was agreed which meant first payment was due before the horse left seller's care.

Seller therefore expected payment before the horse left her care.

Buyer explained that payment could not be made and offered alternative dates, which seller wisely rejected.

It reads to me as if everyone understood exactly what the agreement was.
.

 

[ycbm]

True, but there wasn't a meeting of the minds, by the sound of it. And that's a problem.

Well we agree there. There was no meeting of minds because in their mind this buyer never had any intention of actually paying for the horse.
.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

They sent me an agreement that said non-refundable deposit.

This is quite clear and came from them. No question, you keep the deposit.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

The buyer paid a non refundable deposit, but they obviously had a different understanding on the arrangement to what you did.

Well that is their problem not the sellers, what is not clear about a non refundable deposit? They are chancers clear and simple and I think seller has had a very lucky escape from a nightmare scenario further down the road. Complete messers, do NOT return deposit under any circumstances IMO.

 

[Velcrobum]

Interesting that some people have jumped into commenting on this thread without obviously bothering to read the preceeding posts..................

 

[Jenko109]

Well that is their problem not the sellers, what is not clear about a non refundable deposit? They are chancers clear and simple and I think seller has had a very lucky escape from a nightmare scenario further down the road. Complete messers, do NOT return deposit under any circumstances IMO.

It is as clear as dish water.

The buyer sounds to have been under the impression that there was not really a timescale on payments.

The seller, by the sounds of it, wanted a chunk of money before the pony left, but simply describes it as 'some sort of payment' before the pony leaves.

What on earth is 'some sort of payment?' As it clearly was not discussed properly.

If you pay a deposit but then what you understood the goal posts to be, are then completely moved, how is that fair?

We are only hearing one side of the story here. The buyer used a loan agreement so there were clearly some wires crossed?

This is exactly why everything should be in writing, right down to the smallest detail. It should have been clearly documented how much the pony cost, when each payment was due, how much each payment was to be for, how much money needed to change hands before the pony left the property etc etc.

 

[Bellaboo18]

It's the 'some sort of payment' that makes me think the payment schedule was never set out correctly. I wonder if the buyer thought the deposit classed as some sort of payment.

 

[ycbm]

Interesting that some people have jumped into commenting on this thread without obviously bothering to read the preceeding posts..................

They seem to have read a completely different set of previous posts to me

"Buyer" picking up a horse late September saying they can't pay for any of it until January or complete the purchase until April.

"Buyer" requested by seller to state explicitly in writing what their intended payment schedule is.

"Buyer" writes "non-returnable deposit" on the draft agreement.

But somehow the seller is all at fault here?

Only HHO

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I asked them to send me date for final payment instalment in a bill of sale. This turned into basically a BHS loan agreement where buyer then typed into it…non - refundable deposit and the payments.

It is as clear as dish water.

The buyer sounds to have been under the impression that there was not really a timescale on payments.

The seller, by the sounds of it, wanted a chunk of money before the pony left, but simply describes it as 'some sort of payment' before the pony leaves.

What on earth is 'some sort of payment?' As it clearly was not discussed properly.

If you pay a deposit but then what you understood the goal posts to be, are then completely moved, how is that fair?

We are only hearing one side of the story here. The buyer used a loan agreement so there were clearly some wires crossed?

This is exactly why everything should be in writing, right down to the smallest detail. It should have been clearly documented how much the pony cost, when each payment was due, how much each payment was to be for, how much money needed to change hands before the pony left the property etc etc.

Yes the buyer used a loan agreement in response to seller asking for a bill of sale. Who can know whatever their reasons may have been for doing that, but crucially the buyer typed in, themselves without duress or insistence from seller non-refundable deposit and the payments.

Whatever wires were crossed the non-refundable deposit and any payments made were quite clearly put in writing by the buyer. I fail to see who could possibly think after being messed around by this 'buyer' that the seller has to return the deposit. That is what deposits are for, to compensate seller from time, cost and inconvenience of being messed around by potential buyers?

 

[Jenko109]

Yes the buyer used a loan agreement in response to seller asking for a bill of sale. Who can know whatever their reasons may have been for doing that, but crucially the buyer typed in, themselves without duress or insistence from seller non-refundable deposit and the payments.

Whatever wires were crossed the non-refundable deposit and any payments made were quite clearly put in writing by the buyer. I fail to see who could possibly think after being messed around by this 'buyer' that the seller has to return the deposit. That is what deposits are for, to compensate seller from time, cost and inconvenience of being messed around by potential buyers?

This still lacks clarity.

There is a big difference between

'I will pay the total sum of £2000, inclusive of a £500 deposit. The payments will begin on 01.10.2023 and be paid at £250 each month until the balance is paid'

And

'I will pay the total sum of £2000, in £250 intervals'

There is still no clarity that the buyer and the seller were on the same understanding here.

I would personally like to see the contract before deeming someone entitled to keep a deposit or not.

 

[ycbm]

This still lacks clarity.

There is a big difference between

'I will pay the total sum of £2000, inclusive of a £500 deposit. The payments will begin on 01.10.2023 and be paid at £250 each month until the balance is paid'

And

'I will pay the total sum of £2000, in £250 intervals'

There is still no clarity that the buyer and the seller were on the same understanding here.

I would personally like to see the contract before deeming someone entitled to keep a deposit or not.

Sorry, still struggling to understand on what planet "I can't pay for your horse that i had agreed to pay the first instalment of two on before I took him away, but I want to take him anyway" , having paid a deposit which I wrote down for myself was non-refundable, given 30 days to find the cash with livery continued at the sellers expense, stating that the money could not be found .....

means that the seller is not entitled to keep the deposit.

What do you think the purpose of deposits is? Because if the "buyer" is entitled to a return of this deposit then they serve no purpose whatsoever, do they?
.

 

[Jenko109]

Sorry, still struggling to understand on what planet "I can't pay for your horse that i had agreed to pay the first instalment of two on before I took him away, but I want to take him anyway" , having paid a deposit which I wrote down for myself was non-refundable, given 30 days to find the cash with livery continued at the sellers expense, stating that the money could not be found .....

means that the seller is not entitled to keep the deposit.

What do you think the purpose of deposits is? Because if the "buyer" is entitled to a return of this deposit then they serve no purpose whatsoever, do they?
.

Okay.

I personally prefer to see clearly what was written down before making a conclusion.

I can't see anything to confirm there were only two payments agreed initially.

I can't see anything to suggest that it was agreed how much the first payment would be, prior to the deposit having been paid. Just that the seller expected 'some sort of payment'

My concern here is that the buyer may have been of the understanding that they could pay pretty much as and when. That the 'some sort of payment' before the horse left was fine to be £50 and not £xxx amount that the seller wants.

If it was clearly written down that the buyer owed £×××× on 01.10.2023 and the balance to be paid one month later and they have gone back on this agreement, then fine. Keep the deposit.

But I'm unsure how anyone can be sure this is the case with the vague information we have

 

[Patterdale]

The cynic in me is thinking that they never intended to pay, but didn’t think you’d not let the horse go…..

Payment plans never end well. I would 1000% keep the deposit, you’ve been really messed around by this and at a crap time of year for selling horses.

 

[Cortez]

Okay.

I personally prefer to see clearly what was written down before making a conclusion.

I can't see anything to confirm there were only two payments agreed initially.

I can't see anything to suggest that it was agreed how much the first payment would be, prior to the deposit having been paid. Just that the seller expected 'some sort of payment'

My concern here is that the buyer may have been of the understanding that they could pay pretty much as and when. That the 'some sort of payment' before the horse left was fine to be £50 and not £xxx amount that the seller wants.

If it was clearly written down that the buyer owed £×××× on 01.10.2023 and the balance to be paid one month later and they have gone back on this agreement, then fine. Keep the deposit.

But I'm unsure how anyone can be sure this is the case with the vague information we have

A non-refundable deposit does what it says on the tin. Nothing else in whatever was written (by the buyer, let's not forget) can negate that.

 

[SEL]

they must have known when agreeing to the terms of sale ie payment plan that they wouldn't be able to make the first payment now when taking the horse so basically you were misled and for that reason I wouldn't give it back.

I would write it down for them detailing the terms of the sale, what they failed on so the sale couldn't go ahead and that the deposit is not refundable.
Point out it was made clear at the time that the deposit was not refundable and indeed they detailed "not refundable" in the agreement so this point was agreed by both sides..

Add that you have incurred additional expenses ie livery etc etc and that you have missed opportunities with other buyers as when you took the deposit you withdrew it from sale. You now have to start advertising etc all over again yet it must have been clear to them that they could not fund the 1st payment on time. .
If they pursue it then they will have to detail the exact grounds they believe the deposit is refundable. ie proper grounds not moaning. Otherwise forget them.

Be very grateful this has gone wrong now. Otherwise you would have been posting in Jan that you couldn't get your money but they had the horse and what to do. Alternatively they would have sent the horse back after a suitable while (in some state or other) as it couldn't do what it should and they didn't want it anymore.

^^^ wot Paddy wrote.

They've got no legal grounds to get the deposit back off you so harden your heart and use it to pay the livery you are now going to be incurring while you find another buyer

 

[TheChestnutThing]

Thanks everyone.

I refunded the deposit. Even though I know I was in all rights to keep it, I could not be bothered with the agro and possible bad mouthing that may come with it.

I haven’t even received a thank you for returning it or some sort of acknowledgment.

Lesson learnt. Regardless of if deposit is refundable or not, people still think they deserve to have it back.

And I Will absolutely NEVER agree to a payment plan again. No matter if it’s my closest friend.

 

[bonny]

Thanks everyone.

I refunded the deposit. Even though I know I was in all rights to keep it, I could not be bothered with the agro and possible bad mouthing that may come with it.

I haven’t even received a thank you for returning it or some sort of acknowledgment.

Lesson learnt. Regardless of if deposit is refundable or not, people still think they deserve to have it back.

And I Will absolutely NEVER agree to a payment plan again. No matter if it’s my closest friend.

You did the right thing, hopefully you will find the right home now and forget this ever happened.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Thanks everyone.

I refunded the deposit. Even though I know I was in all rights to keep it, I could not be bothered with the agro and possible bad mouthing that may come with it.

I haven’t even received a thank you for returning it or some sort of acknowledgment.

Lesson learnt. Regardless of if deposit is refundable or not, people still think they deserve to have it back.

And I Will absolutely NEVER agree to a payment plan again. No matter if it’s my closest friend.

Entirely up to you of course, I suspect you are a better person than I though lol! No way would they have got a single cent of that deposit back. To be clear though, you may well hear of plenty of undeserved bad mouthing, sadly I know the type.

Good luck with finding a new buyer that won't mess you around and then you can move on lesson learnt as you say.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks everyone.

I refunded the deposit. Even though I know I was in all rights to keep it, I could not be bothered with the agro and possible bad mouthing that may come with it.

I haven’t even received a thank you for returning it or some sort of acknowledgment.

Lesson learnt. Regardless of if deposit is refundable or not, people still think they deserve to have it back.

And I Will absolutely NEVER agree to a payment plan again. No matter if it’s my closest friend.

Sensible choice.
.

 

[Vodkagirly]

People can get bank loans, if they can't, it's definitely a bad idea to lend to them !

 

[Boulty]

Don’t return it, they’ve pissed you about which is why you cancelled the sale. Would probably avoid payment plans in future, they’re a nightmare!

 

[Fred66]

You did the right thing, hopefully you will find the right home now and forget this ever happened.

Personally I don’t think it’s the right thing. It might be the expedient thing but that’s a different matter